What is the difference?

[brother daniel]

Questions ...
Are you saying that all the people that gather inside a building that has pews, altar, windows are under Christ's woe?

Are you saying that to be out of a church building is "freedom"?

If you are saying that house churches are there primarily to be outside of "control" of "religious system" leadership, are you -
1. Presuming that all such leadership is corrupt, or ...
2. There should be no church leadership, or ...
2. Saying that there should not be any church discipline and all should do as they wish within the church?

Thanks,
Ed

no, no, no

Beloved,
Jesus is the one who has called us to follow him. When we lift him up, he sat he will draw all men unto us.

He tell us as his disciples he is the door.

Jhn 10:7¶Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

Jhn 10:2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
Becauese you or I have entered by the door, does that make us leaders even though we are shepherds?

Leadership today is based on military thinking.

I have found that any cell or house group that teaches about leadreship and not the gospel of Jesus is inevitably shealding a secret hieraarchy and doctrine.

John the baptist was a leader but he decreased as Jesus increased. Jesus calls us brother, he teaches us about OUR FATHER and OUR FATHERS KINGDOM.

Jesus never acts as a cop, telling his sheep how to do this and that. Sheep already know how to do what sheep do, eat, sleep and reproduce.

But they dont know where the good pasture is or what dangers lurk ahead.

The good shepherd follows his slowest sheep guiding them not leading.

The more he guided them to good pasture the more they trust him.

Our good pasture is the word of God found in scripture.

When we feed on scripture and act on it the sheep follow. Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel. He is not looking for lost goats because goats never think they are lost.

I am a sheep, Jesus is my shepherd.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

I would say Roman thinking, Platonic Dualism, for example. Millitary as in Legionary, I suppose, but not, say, Samurai.

Not sure who this is referencing. Leadership is seasonal and part-time. And is the role of servant... which we should all aspire to. No secret method there methinx
We are disciple one another and no one mediates on our behalf but Jeebus.

BELOVED BRETHREN,
I am refering to my limited personal experiane.

From what I get from Jesus, the church or house meeting should be wherever we who are disciples abide.

Act 2:42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Act 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

As a disciple of Jesus, when I enter a town I seek who is worthy and upon finding that person I their abide until its time to move on.

I have found the way to do that, is to share the gospel with everyone I meet and if there is anybody in town known to love God.

If there is no such person, I move on to the next town.

At the present time I have been dwelling as caretaker on 40 acre of lovely woods in Bethel, New York.

A few weeks ago two traveling evangelists were inquiring if there was such a person living here with room for them to camp.

They were refered to me by a local citizen who was not a brother in the Lord and dwelt here for a few days before going on to a schuduled meeting somewhare else.
We were all blessed

I dont see Jesus scheduling any meetings. It seems he preached and taught as long as anyone was interested.

There was a brother and his wife living nearby for two years, We exchanged visits and scripture often. They have moved south to Florida.

My wife and adult Children visit me from time to time but say they dont have to live with me and do what I am doing.

God knows.

But my door is open to anyone who wants to hear the gospel and if they choose become a disciple as Jesus taught.

I have been recieved from coast to coast by others who share and live the same gospel though we had no mutual connection other than Jesus and his word.

Its a narrow way but everytime I have tried something else it has brought forth bad fruit.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

 

[Edial]

no, no, no

Maybe I asked my questions too restrictively.

Do you believe that there should be any type of leadership in a church (house church or otherwise)?

And if so, how would you describe it?

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Sleaker]

leadership as a whole, as I see it in any church. It doesn't matter if they are a house church or not, is to teach, show, help, and encourage, (all those verbs associated with doing) the congregation or people to transform themselves into the perfect and spotless Bride of Christ.

Leadership is leading people to a place where they can experience God more fully. A pastor's job is not to feed the sheep, I think this is a common misconception in the current church. If you feed the sheep they will stop feeding themselves. If you look at what a shepherd did, they gathered the flock and lead the flock to places of green grass, good for grazing where they could grow and develop. That is how I see leaders. They are designed to invite, push, pull, tug, and reveal to people where the green grass is. They are not designed to shove the food in the sheeps mouth or to hand feed them. The best thing a leader can do is lead people to a conducive setting for growth and development in the Lord. Exemplifying Christ is a primary way that a leader does this.

The other thing I see leadership doing in the book of Acts is general decision making, not law, but love. We see that the apostles needed to apoint people to hand out food, and they asked the people if this was okay. So I see leadership operating in conjuction with the people to make sure everything is right before the Lord. By this picture in Acts I get an idea that leadership in the church needs vision and wisdom to take the church places. Common example would be in something that not just one person can undertake, so leadership will come together to pray and seek the Lord about a decision and then come back to the congregation to make sure it is truly what God wants.

The other place I see leadership in scripture is in the Epistles to Timothy and Titus. Here I find a picture of Elders or leaders in the church that will lay on hands to pray for spiritual gifts and impart the Holy Spirit (in Acts). And to heal members of the Body of Christ.

So after looking through scripture I feel that being in leadership means that you are responsible to make an atmosphere that is conducive to bringing people into a better knowledge, revelation, and relationship with God, Christ and the Holy Spirit.

 

[TheAJKMan]

Is there a difference between a house church and a church?
Is the difference only in a structure of a building or is there more to it than that?

Thanks,
Ed

I think that basically the main differences lie not only in the place of meeting, but also in the leadership/administrative structures. THere is more fluidity and readiness to move quickly in a home church than there may be in an established church. There is also a greater chance of involvement by all in a home church than in an established church. Various other things like that, but the most important thing is to know that you are where God has called you to be.

As an aside, I've seen both good and bad in the churches I've been in and my choice for now is to not be in a church. I believe it to be right ofr me for now, but will hopefully not be disobedient should God direcct otherwise.


theajkman

 

[Edial]

Thanks.

leadership as a whole, as I see it in any church. It doesn't matter if they are a house church or not, is to teach, show, help, and encourage, (all those verbs associated with doing) the congregation or people to transform themselves into the perfect and spotless Bride of Christ.

Leadership is leading people to a place where they can experience God more fully. A pastor's job is not to feed the sheep, I think this is a common misconception in the current church. If you feed the sheep they will stop feeding themselves. If you look at what a shepherd did, they gathered the flock and lead the flock to places of green grass, good for grazing where they could grow and develop. That is how I see leaders. They are designed to invite, push, pull, tug, and reveal to people where the green grass is. They are not designed to shove the food in the sheeps mouth or to hand feed them. The best thing a leader can do is lead people to a conducive setting for growth and development in the Lord. Exemplifying Christ is a primary way that a leader does this.

Interesting, you combined Psalm 23 with John 21:17.

It is a very good balance.

The other thing I see leadership doing in the book of Acts is general decision making, not law, but love. We see that the apostles needed to apoint people to hand out food, and they asked the people if this was okay. So I see leadership operating in conjuction with the people to make sure everything is right before the Lord. By this picture in Acts I get an idea that leadership in the church needs vision and wisdom to take the church places. Common example would be in something that not just one person can undertake, so leadership will come together to pray and seek the Lord about a decision and then come back to the congregation to make sure it is truly what God wants.

The other place I see leadership in scripture is in the Epistles to Timothy and Titus. Here I find a picture of Elders or leaders in the church that will lay on hands to pray for spiritual gifts and impart the Holy Spirit (in Acts). And to heal members of the Body of Christ.

So after looking through scripture I feel that being in leadership means that you are responsible to make an atmosphere that is conducive to bringing people into a better knowledge, revelation, and relationship with God, Christ and the Holy Spirit.

I agree with all with 2 clarifying questions.

1. You said - ... I see leadership operating in conjuction with the people to make sure everything is right before the Lord.
Do you see the leadership excercising discipline in the church.
And if you do see that, what would be the criteria for it?

2. You said - Here I find a picture of Elders or leaders in the church that will lay on hands to pray for spiritual gifts and impart the Holy Spirit (in Acts). And to heal members of the Body of Christ.

Since it is evident that there are not many healings of Supernatural proportions, and taking into consideration the James text where it states that a person WILL get well after praying and being anointing with oil and seeing that many do not, don't you see a healing aspect of this as being foundational for a possible corruption within the leadership?

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

I think that basically the main differences lie not only in the place of meeting, but also in the leadership/administrative structures. THere is more fluidity and readiness to move quickly in a home church than there may be in an established church. There is also a greater chance of involvement by all in a home church than in an established church. Various other things like that, but the most important thing is to know that you are where God has called you to be.

I agree with this.
The purpose of a church is to edify the saints.
But since the fuller purpose of a church is to be a visible "beacon" for others as a source of the gospel, wouldn't you say that a house church has certain disadvantages in that area, since people simply do not know that it exists?

As an aside, I've seen both good and bad in the churches I've been in and my choice for now is to not be in a church. I believe it to be right ofr me for now, but will hopefully not be disobedient should God direcct otherwise.


theajkman

Now, this is interesting.

Obviously it would not be right for me to ask the "whys".

But you appear to accept a certain degree of disobedience by not going to church. Am I reading this correctly?
What makes you say that God will direct you once you are in an act of disobedience?
Isn't disobedience a resistance to being directed?

Thanks,
Ed

 

[brother daniel]

I agree with this.
The purpose of a church is to edify the saints.
But since the fuller purpose of a church is to be a visible "beacon" for others as a source of the gospel, wouldn't you say that a house church has certain disadvantages in that area, since people simply do not know that it exists?


Now, this is interesting.

Obviously it would not be right for me to ask the "whys".

But you appear to understand a certain disagree of disobedience by not going to church. Am I reading this correctly?
What makes you say that God will direct you once you are in an act of disobedience?
Isn't disobedience a resistance to being directed?

Thanks,
Ed

Brethern Its the idea of "going to church" insted of "being the church that I find hard to swollow.
Witnessing is how the church is set on a hill and the light is seen.

When you are a member of the body of Christ you are part of his church.

We are called to assemble as often as we shall.

Great I assemble daily when there are brethren around.


With love in Christ,
brother daniel

 

[Edial]

Brethern Its the idea of "going to church" insted of "being the church that I find hard to swollow.
Witnessing is how the church is set on a hill and the light is seen.

When you are a member of the body of Christ you are part of his church.

We are called to assemble as often as we shall.

Great I assemble daily when there are brethren around.


With love in Christ,
brother daniel

And you are doing well.

But wouldn't you agree that regular folks "understand" church as a building where one goes to hear about God?

Let's forget "us" for a moment.

Now, witnessing is what we are called for, but as for me, when I was not a Christian (or a very "young" Christian, not certain) - I went to church.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Sleaker]

Thanks.



Interesting, you combined Psalm 23 with John 21:17.

It is a very good balance.


I agree with all with 2 clarifying questions.

1. You said - ... I see leadership operating in conjuction with the people to make sure everything is right before the Lord.
Do you see the leadership excercising discipline in the church.
And if you do see that, what would be the criteria for it?

2. You said - Here I find a picture of Elders or leaders in the church that will lay on hands to pray for spiritual gifts and impart the Holy Spirit (in Acts). And to heal members of the Body of Christ.

Since it is evident that there are not many healings of Supernatural proportions, and taking into consideration the James text where it states that a person WILL get well after praying and being anointing with oil and seeing that many do not, don't you see a healing aspect of this as being foundational for a possible corruption within the leadership?

Thanks,
Ed

1. Absolutely, as long as it is done in love. We get a picture of this in the Apostle Paul's letters to the Corinthians, how he exhorted them to walk away from the world and to live as Christ does, in more than 1 letter I believe he even gives specific references to specific problems and what not to do, I know in Corinthians he mentions 2 men having a problem and one suing the other and rebukes the man for doing it. The leadership then, is designed to make sure the sheep don't bite each other? And also to lead them back to the green grass when they willfully wander away. The primary way it must be done is in love and with the wisdom granted by the Holy Spirit. Each situation is different and requires consideration, I don't think the you can use scripture to prove how to handle any given situation, otherwise we would not need leaders and the Holy Spirit. So the leaders have to work in the Holy Spirit to reconcile!
The epistles of John talk a lot about love and loving each other, and when reading them I get the idea that leadership is to encourage the love of God within people, and to rebuke people when they willingly refuse to love, but not just leadership too. For if you love someone and you see them walk away from God wont try and do something about it? If you seek the Lord about it first and then go to the person you are moving in love for them. So I find that not only leadership does these things, but also those who are in unity with the Body of Christ. I find that as I write these thing that, the idea of everyone having a mutual obligation to each other comes to mind. Cain said 'Am I my brother's keeper?' And got himself into trouble, I think we are to watch out for each other, not just those in leadership.


2. From experience, I have seen God move in healings more often than not within the homechurch I am at. I tell you this, because it is something we have earnestly sought before the Lord and asked him to reveal to us. And He has blessed us greatly! Not because we desire it, we do, but because God desires to see people healed, not just spiritually, but also physically. And so I must say that healigns are a common thing, that occur almost daily, and are the result of an outpouring of God's goodness. When someone does NOT get healed from prayer, the Holy Spirit will almost always reveal through a word of knowledge the reason why, and the hindrances that are preventing the person, or persons from being healed. With the knowledge of what is going on the church is able to address the problem. I do not see the healing as a corruption problem necessarily, I see it as a place where the church has allowed Satan to rob the Body of Christ of it's birthright. It's God-given right to heal sick, cast out demons and raise the dead. The only problem now is finding people with the faith to walk in these things, which is a completely different issue all together. Like was stated in question #1 all these things should be done in love. As Paul mentioned in Corinthians the greatest gift is love.
I also admit I don't fully understand question #2, maybe I answered what you were referring to but I'm not so sure, so please do re-ask/re-word if I didn't catch what you wanted. Dialogue is good

 

[LinkH]

There is a lot of variety in house church. Some house churches believe in Biblical elders, a plurality of them (as opposed to a traditional clergyman figure). A lot of house churches incorporate an element of 'brethren' making decisions. Some make decisions by consensus.

A lot of house churches believe in I Corinthians 14:26 meetings in which any believer in the congregation can speak to edify the body. Some intepret this passage only to refer to the men.

 

[brother daniel]

And you are doing well.

But wouldn't you agree that regular folks "understand" church as a building where one goes to hear about God?

Let's forget "us" for a moment.

REGULAR PEOPLE, have believed that a temple or synagogue or church structure is where they would hear about god ever since Egypt and Babylon. And they were decieved by that.

Jesus like John and the prophets, did most of his teaching outside the temple and synagogue.

A big part af the problem we are talking about here is what "regular people understand about "going to church."

In Jesus time, the people of Jerusalem had the temple where people gathered in the outer court and conversed .

In the synagogues any man could read could go up read from the scriptures and address the congregation.
That is not the practiced now by any but a few home churches.

Now, witnessing is what we are called for, but as for me, when I was not a Christian (or a very "young" Christian, not certain) - I went to church.

I can understand that, I did also, but prefering the Jesus in the scriptures for a sure foundation I have had to come out of that fallen example.

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Unless I find fellowship that is consistant with the scriptures I cannot enter or recomend it.

Thanks,
Ed

There is a lot of variety in house church. Some house churches believe in Biblical elders, a plurality of them (as opposed to a traditional clergyman figure). A lot of house churches incorporate an element of 'brethren' making decisions. Some make decisions by consensus.

I have have had experance with all of this

A lot of house churches believe in I Corinthians 14:26 meetings in which any believer in the congregation can speak to edify the body. Some intepret this passage only to refer to the men.

I am inclined this way but my wife who is a sister in the Lord disagrees.

When our church meeting is just between she and I,
I listen even when disagreeing.

But when male brethren are gathered I ask for silent or modest service from her and any other sisters present. I find the pratice of the woman covering her head is a wise thing but not a law. .

I am challanged to stay charitable but I am convinced our lord has given instruction to us a males and females how to control our flesh. His way is best.

I have seen the good fruit of when the men meet and the women pray.

When I meet an elder in the Lord, its easy to recognize.
He or she who has come out of traditional churchs and can share lessons learned in living by faith and witnessing daily.

Unity in Christ cannot be accomplished by eccuminical politics. between denominations.

I have had fellowship with brethren who have come out of every denomination because we were agreed on being instructed by the Holy Ghost from the scrptures.

I can say to any brother "come and see", We pray, we study and we witness. We work with our hands doing that which we know to do.

God has me cartaking a property and as I clear paths, burn brush and gather building stone, I pray, knowing what I am doing is preparing a place for others to meet in Christ.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

 

[Edial]

1. Absolutely, as long as it is done in love. We get a picture of this in the Apostle Paul's letters to the Corinthians, how he exhorted them to walk away from the world and to live as Christ does, in more than 1 letter I believe he even gives specific references to specific problems and what not to do, I know in Corinthians he mentions 2 men having a problem and one suing the other and rebukes the man for doing it. The leadership then, is designed to make sure the sheep don't bite each other? And also to lead them back to the green grass when they willfully wander away. The primary way it must be done is in love and with the wisdom granted by the Holy Spirit. Each situation is different and requires consideration, I don't think the you can use scripture to prove how to handle any given situation, otherwise we would not need leaders and the Holy Spirit. So the leaders have to work in the Holy Spirit to reconcile!
The epistles of John talk a lot about love and loving each other, and when reading them I get the idea that leadership is to encourage the love of God within people, and to rebuke people when they willingly refuse to love, but not just leadership too. For if you love someone and you see them walk away from God wont try and do something about it? If you seek the Lord about it first and then go to the person you are moving in love for them. So I find that not only leadership does these things, but also those who are in unity with the Body of Christ. I find that as I write these thing that, the idea of everyone having a mutual obligation to each other comes to mind. Cain said 'Am I my brother's keeper?' And got himself into trouble, I think we are to watch out for each other, not just those in leadership.

Agree. Thanks.

2. From experience, I have seen God move in healings more often than not within the homechurch I am at. I tell you this, because it is something we have earnestly sought before the Lord and asked him to reveal to us. And He has blessed us greatly! Not because we desire it, we do, but because God desires to see people healed, not just spiritually, but also physically. And so I must say that healigns are a common thing, that occur almost daily, and are the result of an outpouring of God's goodness. When someone does NOT get healed from prayer, the Holy Spirit will almost always reveal through a word of knowledge the reason why, and the hindrances that are preventing the person, or persons from being healed. With the knowledge of what is going on the church is able to address the problem. I do not see the healing as a corruption problem necessarily, I see it as a place where the church has allowed Satan to rob the Body of Christ of it's birthright. It's God-given right to heal sick, cast out demons and raise the dead. The only problem now is finding people with the faith to walk in these things, which is a completely different issue all together. Like was stated in question #1 all these things should be done in love. As Paul mentioned in Corinthians the greatest gift is love.
I also admit I don't fully understand question #2, maybe I answered what you were referring to but I'm not so sure, so please do re-ask/re-word if I didn't catch what you wanted. Dialogue is good

Now, this is interesting.
(And you did understand the question).

It indeed is a will of God to heal people.
Yet there is this balance that sometimes escapes some people and corruption occurs, intentional or unintentional. Benny Hinn comes to mind.

James text says that when an elder will pray in faith and anoint with oil that person WILL get well.
This presents that 100% of people will get well in a situation like that.

You present that when one does not get well then there are hindrances. And James does appear to confirm that by stating right below that we should confess our sins to each other. In other words, the illness is due to sin and healing is a manifestation of the forgiveness of that sin.

2 questions.

1. You stated that in all cases of unsuccessful healing Holy Spirit presents reasons why that healing did not take place. This is interesting. Please give me real-life examples of what were the reasons, how the church understood them, and whether or not that person confessed/repented and was healed after that or not.

2. How do you explain that ALL that came to Christ 2000 years ago were healed and many healing miracles of Supernatural context and of excellent quality were performed, such as raising a few days old corpse from the dead and growing shriveled limbs, and today we do not see such things. It is usually happening to a "friend of a friend".

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Sleaker]

mm I'm loving your questions! Just want to say thank you for truly asking and seeking! Now on to some answers of sorts.. haha!

1. Okay since you don't know the people, i think it would be alright for me to share a specific example of someone not getting healed. Currently in our fellowship we have a person who has been prayed for, for Diabetes, now she earnestly desires to be healed, and she does have the faith for it. But like you said she has a sin holding her back. It was revealed to more than one person that until she begins to move in love with one of her sons she wont be healed. Now this is a more recent event and I'm not sure if she has been told this yet. but the word of Knowledge on why was given, an unloving heart is preventing her from recieving God's blessing.

Situation number two, a man in our church was healed of diabetes a few months ago, he stopped taking his medication and everything and has been fine since then. He should be completely fatigued and probably dead now. But God has healed him! He started having pains in his knees, and down his leg. So he came before the rest of the leaders in the fellowship and asked for prayer. And the pain subsided, but didn't go away completely. A vision and an interpretation were given of a hole and a nail. The hole was a stronghold or opening where the enemy could attack him physically. Now we percieved that the stronghold was his sugar intake. He had been overloading it since he got healed a bit too much (gluttony/bad stewardship of body) and so he began to watch his diet more carefully, not overdoing sugar. He has been fine ever since.

So those are just two examples of what has gone on. The usual common things that get healed are allergies, common colds, flu, headaches, stomach aches. Things like that.


As far as Question #2 goes, I think there is more to it than just everyone was healed. Here are some scriptures as to why I think otherwise:

[bible]Mark 8:23-27[/bible]

Through this story I see Jesus pray for the man twice, he didn't get healed immediately. This shows me that when praying for healing it doesn't necessarily happen completely the first time.

[bible]Matthew 13:54-58[/bible]

Afte I read these I get the feeling that healing is also dependant on faith. And that if there is no faith, how can a healing happen? I think this is probably the biggest reason why we don't see healings, because the people have little faith in God. Not to bash on other people, I am included in that group too, I have been in a situation where I earnestly desired to just go ahead and pray for someone that they would be healed but I didn't because I didn't have the faith.

The other reason why I think that healings don't always happen is because we beg for it to happen, in begging there is no faith. Faith is knowing that if you ask the father for it, it will happen. We are told to pray as if the thing is going to happen for sure. What goes along with that is the Gift of Healing, meaning some people have been given the actual gift of healing. Maybe not everyone has that gift? But I'm not sure about that one, or the context of the gift.

I have an analogy about Authority and moving in gifts if you'd like to hear it as it is a bit related, although it might not help

 

[Edial]

REGULAR PEOPLE, have believed that a temple or synagogue or church structure is where they would hear about god ever since Egypt and Babylon. And they were decieved by that.

Jesus like John and the prophets, did most of his teaching outside the temple and synagogue.

But Jesus and the Apostles DID teach in the temple and synagogues.

And wasn't the reason that they stopped because the synagogue leaders forbade them, and not because Jesus decided on another approach of preaching?

And didn't Jesus and the Apostles combine the two, inside the building and outside?

A big part af the problem we are talking about here is what "regular people understand about "going to church."

In Jesus time, the people of Jerusalem had the temple where people gathered in the outer court and conversed .

In the synagogues any man could read could go up read from the scriptures and address the congregation.
That is not the practiced now by any but a few home churches.

That is true.
Some do, but majority do not.

How does today's church service differ from the times in the Acts2?

They listened to the teaching of Apostles (without interruption) - we sits through a sermon.
They ate together - we have potluck and coffee.
They discussed - we have Bible studies.
They shared all - do we? No. But we take an offering and support the needy in the church.

Now, are there abuses in today's churches? - yes.

Were there abuses at the first church? - yes (partiality in distribution of food to the widows comes to mind).

I can understand that, I did also, but prefering the Jesus in the scriptures for a sure foundation I have had to come out of that fallen example.

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Unless I find fellowship that is consistant with the scriptures I cannot enter or recomend it.

...

Chapter 18 is talking about the harlot of Babylon.

How do you associate her with the church and why?

And please, define again a fellowship that you see as consistent with Scriptures and absent from today's Church.

And let's keep in mind that there were recorded abuses of the church in the Scriptures as well as now.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Sleaker]

But Jesus and the Apostles DID teach in the

How does today's church service differ from the times in the Acts2?

They listened to the teaching of Apostles (without interruption) - we sits through a sermon.
They ate together - we have potluck and coffee.
They discussed - we have Bible studies.
They shared all - do we? No. But we take an offering and support the needy in the church.

I think I might be able to describe a little bit of why the 'church service' structure of things is not what we see in Acts 2.

For Reference:
[bible]Acts 2:42-47[/bible]

Okay so all throughout the New Testament we get a picture of what Love is and what leadership is designed to do (as I was discussing earlier) And I might pose a question about a Evangelical Church. Who is getting served at a normal Evangelical service? I believe it's actually the pastor. And I say this because: the pastor is the one getting paid, he is the one that people are listening to for a half an hour, and he is generally one of the few individuals that is using his gift.

When I in the new Testament I get the picture that the reason why leadership is in the church is not to allow the leadership a place where they can preach or 'show off' (I don't mean pridefully) their gifts. The leadership is in the church to teach others to do. To do God's will. (Mark 16 and Philippaisn 2 come to mind). But when I honestly look at the Evangelical church model I see 52 God inspired messages to a church congregation that produce little or no change in peoples lives. They still struggle with the same sins, they still struggle with the same prayers, and they still can't hear God directly or move in his abundant gifts. I say this after experiencing it in a local church. I am honestly horrified at this. The church in Thessolonica was set up in what 2 weeks? and they were leading themselves by the Holy Spirit to the point where their love was known about in all of Accacia. This sounds like a powerful change of life to me. I'm not saying that the Evangelica church doesn't do good, or that people don't learn things, or experience God in them, I'm suggesting that it is not conducive to growth and that it can actually allow a place where people can come to church but not actually be in The Body of Christ. As I have begun finding out through many struggles, the only way you can teach people is by allowing them to experience it, you can't preach at them. We can only learn by doing. I see Jesus do this with his disciples, first he does miracles and shows them what the Kingdom of God (or Heaven) is and then He sends them off on their own in pairs and tells them to DO! And they come back and tell Him that they even have authority over demons! They learned the truth because they Did it, not because they saw Jesus doing it. Jesus doing miracles sparked the interest, then they got to experience them first-hand.

 

[brother daniel]

But Jesus and the Apostles DID teach in the temple and synagogues.

And wasn't the reason that they stopped because the synagogue leaders forbade them, and not because Jesus decided on another approach of preaching?
{/quote]

The main reason I am outside of any denomonation or other local assembly, is I have been rejected from all when quoting the words of Jesus, in Scripture, as our supreme authority, concerning what he expects.of his disciples.

Everyone, has said their leadership, an absentee authority, has a different interpertation.

And didn't Jesus and the Apostles combine the two, inside the building and outside?
{/quote]

more outside the temple and synagogue than in.

How does today's church service differ from the times in the Acts2?

In the Time of the book of acts, The core of 120 disciples were dwelling together and of one mind and one accord.

Thats very differant than any service today.

When Peter gave his first Holy Ghost powered sermon at the temple, it was full of devout men. It was not a one or two hour church service. The temple was open 24/7

They listened to the teaching of Apostles (without interruption) - we sits through a sermon.

The apostles were disciples of Jesus, known by each other and the crowd to have been with Jesus.

When I get a witness in my spirit that a brother or sister is a disciple and living the walk while preaching from God I listen also. But I have found that to be very rare in churches.

They ate together - we have potluck and coffee.
They discussed - we have Bible studies.
They shared all - do we?

Why not? Jesus did and instructed his disciples to follow. When did he or the apostiles teach otherwise.?

No. But we take an offering and support the needy in the church.

Chapter 18 is talking about the harlot of Babylon.

How do you associate her with the church and why?

I dont like to address this subject because it is seen as flaming by Roman Catholics, Easter Orthodox Jews, and Protistants.

Basicly because, since the time of Constantine The Bishop of Rome and it priests have been in a whoring relationship with the Roman government.

"The fact that no church today adheres to the Bible
and the Bible alone in the teachings they espouse has
been foretold in Bible prophecy:

"And in that day seven women shall take hold of one
man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our
own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to
take away our reproach." Isaiah 4:1.

This prophecy tells us that at the end of time
"seven" (7 symbolically indicates "all", "totality" ,
"complete" e.g. 7 days of creation, 7 last plagues,
7 years of famine, etc.) or ALL, "women" (or churches
– churches are often symbolized as women in the
Bible Rev.12:1 vs. Rev. 17:3) 'shall take hold of one
man' (they will claim to have a relationship with Jesus–
–which ALL the churches profess today) 'saying, We
will eat our own bread' ( They reject the true Bread of
life-Jesus and His teachings, see John 6:51, and
prefer rather to "eat" their own false doctrines and
traditions––see Isaiah 8:20), 'and wear our own
apparel' (they also reject the pure, white robe of
Christ's righteousness and prefer their own system of
works and self-righteousness - see Isaiah 61:10;
Rev. 3:4, 5, 18) but here is the real interesting point, they all say: 'only let us be called by Thy name'
(they desperately, despite their rebellion, want to be
recognized as part of Christ's church, why?) 'to take away our reproach'. They don't want their shame and disgrace to be seen due to the fact that t
hey are teaching falsehood and are not part of Christ's
church, but in reality are one of the shameful, harlot
daughters of Babylon!

This speaks to me of the "Roman Catholic "ecumunicial
movement, and the UN World Councial of Churches.

Accordingly, those of us who want to “follow the Lamb
whithersoever he goeth” (Revelation 14:4), and adhere to the Bible and the Bible alone as the infallible rule of faith, have no choice but to worship Him in truth and spirit in the privacy of our homes, away from the fallen and apostate churches, which collectively form the synagogue of Satan.

In the Book of Revelation God calls and labels such
entities as "Babylon"; they serve as centers of confusion
and deception. Our most loving heavenly Father,
God, further commands His people to come out of
such entities, before He pours His plagues on Babylon
, 'for her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath
remembered her iniquities.' Revelation 18:1-5.

'Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp,
bearing his reproach.' Hebrews 13:13.

And please, define again a fellowship that you see as consistent with Scriptures and absent from today's Church.

Its sobering when we meet as servants of god.
The most importent thing to each of us is we experence the presence of God.

In every way with as few words possable we make room for each other.

We know who are elders are or those who labor among is. We encourge each other to come together in prayer waiting for the Spitit to move through the brethren,

We are each listening for god to speak through those assembled with us.

We are not looking for fault or abuse but rather encouraging each othe to do what Jesus in Scripture says concerning how to love one another as he does.

And let's keep in mind that there were recorded abuses of the church in the Scriptures as well as now.

The main purpose of the epistles and Revelation is to pinpoint and correct such abuse.

Thanks,
Ed[/quote]

With love in Christ
brother daniel

 

[Sleaker]

The most importent thing to each of us is we experence the presence of God.

In every way with as few words possable we make room for each other.

We know who are elders are or those who labor among is. We encourge each other to come together in prayer waiting for the Spitit to move through the brethren,

We are each listening for god to speak through those assembled with us.

We are not looking for fault or abuse but rather encouraging each othe to do what Jesus in Scripture says concerning how to love one another as he does.


The main purpose of the epistles and Revelation is to pinpoint and correct such abuse.

Thanks,
Ed

And that is the mind of Christ!

 

[Edial]

mm I'm loving your questions! Just want to say thank you for truly asking and seeking! Now on to some answers of sorts.. haha!

1. Okay since you don't know the people, i think it would be alright for me to share a specific example of someone not getting healed. Currently in our fellowship we have a person who has been prayed for, for Diabetes, now she earnestly desires to be healed, and she does have the faith for it. But like you said she has a sin holding her back. It was revealed to more than one person that until she begins to move in love with one of her sons she wont be healed. Now this is a more recent event and I'm not sure if she has been told this yet. but the word of Knowledge on why was given, an unloving heart is preventing her from recieving God's blessing.

OK. Thanks.
Do you have examples when one was shown a reason why he/she was not healed that first time, repented and then was healed?

Situation number two, a man in our church was healed of diabetes a few months ago, he stopped taking his medication and everything and has been fine since then. He should be completely fatigued and probably dead now. But God has healed him! He started having pains in his knees, and down his leg. So he came before the rest of the leaders in the fellowship and asked for prayer. And the pain subsided, but didn't go away completely. A vision and an interpretation were given of a hole and a nail. The hole was a stronghold or opening where the enemy could attack him physically. Now we percieved that the stronghold was his sugar intake. He had been overloading it since he got healed a bit too much (gluttony/bad stewardship of body) and so he began to watch his diet more carefully, not overdoing sugar. He has been fine ever since.

It might appear to some that the perception that was exercised is a "common sense" approach and not a Supernatural gift. The pain is because he eats sugar.
But thanks.

So those are just two examples of what has gone on. The usual common things that get healed are allergies, common colds, flu, headaches, stomach aches. Things like that.

Some might say that a lot of these could be caused by an unintentional self-conviction - nerves.
But flu?
Are you telling me that a person had a full blown flu and got healed of it at that moment?
Did you see that?

I am lookin at the list of illnesses and my previous question comes to mind.
How do you explain that we no longer see the miracles of Supernatural proportions (few days old corpses rising, shriveled hands growing) of 2000 years ago?

As far as Question #2 goes, I think there is more to it than just everyone was healed. Here are some scriptures as to why I think otherwise:

[bible]Mark 8:23-27[/bible]

Through this story I see Jesus pray for the man twice, he didn't get healed immediately. This shows me that when praying for healing it doesn't necessarily happen completely the first time.

This is the only example in the Bible of delayed healing.
I am certain it has many other applications that I am not aware of.

But the question still stands -
How do you explain that ALL that came to Christ were healed yet the greatest majority that want to get healed today do not?

[bible]Matthew 13:54-58[/bible]

Afte I read these I get the feeling that healing is also dependant on faith. And that if there is no faith, how can a healing happen? I think this is probably the biggest reason why we don't see healings, because the people have little faith in God. Not to bash on other people, I am included in that group too, I have been in a situation where I earnestly desired to just go ahead and pray for someone that they would be healed but I didn't because I didn't have the faith.

It appears that you are saying that a person does not get healed because he/she has no faith to be healed.

But how do you explain this text?
(And these are the instructions to us on "How to do it").
JAS 5:14 Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

Here, the faith of the elder that prays over that person is improtant and not the faith of the sick one.

I have heard others saying that one does not get healed because he has weak faith - I think that might be one of the phrases that could be reflective (not "is reflective" ) of a corruption of the leadership of a congregation - a topic we discussed earlier.

The other reason why I think that healings don't always happen is because we beg for it to happen, in begging there is no faith. Faith is knowing that if you ask the father for it, it will happen. We are told to pray as if the thing is going to happen for sure...

But we also know that it is not always God's will that one might be healed - Apostle Paul and his thorn comes to mind.

So, how does one know that one could ask and it will happen? In other words, how does one know that it is God's will for him to be healed?
I do not think too many people believe that we might convince God to go against his OWN will.
Asking for anything includes a condition that it is according to Hid will ...
1JN 5:14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us--whatever we ask--we know that we have what we asked of him.

What goes along with that is the Gift of Healing, meaning some people have been given the actual gift of healing. Maybe not everyone has that gift? But I'm not sure about that one, or the context of the gift.

That is true. Agree.

How do you explain some people stating that since the healings are no longer a normative events, the gift of healing is also not normative?
The gift of healing clearly exists (it's in the Bible), but it is applicable perhabs in a places where the gospel has not been spread yet, such as some places in Africa and so forth.
(The original purpose of Christ's healings was to support his words of the Gospel).

I have an analogy about Authority and moving in gifts if you'd like to hear it as it is a bit related, although it might not help

Please do.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Sleaker]

For greater understanding of healing I'd suggest you take a look at the Azusa Street Revival, healings that happened there, and such.

But from my standpoint I believe God desires all sickness and disease to be healed, I'm not sure why it doesn't happen immediately, always, I usually atrtibute it to either lack of faith, or Satan causing disruption somehow. Now the reason why I believe that God desires healing for all, is because of what Jesus told us to pray. He told us to bind on earth whatever is bound in heaven and to loose on earth whatever is loosed on heaven. He also told us to pray thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth, as it is in heaven. Is there sickness and disease in Heaven? Absolutely not! So I'm forced through these 2 passages to think that God desires to see all sickness and disease removed from the face of the earth. As far as Paul is concerned I'm under the impression that He could have been healed but decided not to be because he knew that it kept him humble and kept him focused on the Lord.

I think the important thing to focus on is not Why it doesn't happen like that now, or why we don't see as many healings, but rather to focus and seek the Lord about it and ask How we may start doing it more.

Alright I'm going to throw this out here because I think it might have something to do with healing. Maybe God doesn't grant people's prayers for healing because it may cause some people to become prideful and walk away from him? meaning if someone prays for someone and they person is healed, the Person offering the prayer may become prideful and rebellious. So do you think everyone was able to go around healing people when they first believed? I'm not completely sure, I know Peter was well known, but look what Peter went through before he started moving in the Gifts, he denied Christ 3 times, and then repented of it. Later we see people being healed by his presence. Jesus touched people and they were healed.

So this analogy I keep boggling around, I'll give it now:
Maybe the gifts of the Spirit and healing can be described like this:
Jesus is in a truck, and he's driving around. He sees you on a street corner and stops, and asks you to come in. You don't know much about healing yet, and you don't really care to learn, and so you pass him up on his offer and continue living your life. Something changes and sparks your interest, but Jesus hasn't come back around yet, and so you wait for him, eventually you see his truck coming down the road. He stops by you and invites you in. This time you gladly accept his offer. As Jesus is driving he begins to talk to you about his healing power, and he stops the truck, and says, "Hey see that guy over there, He's got a cold, lets go heal Him." At first you don't know what to do but before you know it Jesus has jumped out of the truck and beckoning you to come with him. So you get out and go with him to pray for the man. The man recovers instantly, and your faith is increased! Then Jesus returns to the truck and you hop in with him. After a while, you see another man, he has a broken bone, and Jesus says hey lets go heal him! because of the faith of the cold you feel more inclined this time and hop out with Jesus and pray for the man, his bone is restored! Getting back in the car with Jesus you continue to make stops like this along the road. Until Jesus tells you, "Hey I think you should drive now." You're unsure at first but Jesus insists, and so you get in the drivers seat of the truck. Not knowing where to go you ask Jesus, where shall we go, and he responds, well where do you want to go? You begin to drive around and heal people with Jesus, but now you are driving because Jesus trusts you with the authority, he knows you'll be a good steward of it. Then one day you see another guy by a corner, and Jesus says, Hey lets go pick him up, like I picked you up on that day a long time ago. So you pick him up and start taking the him wherever you go in the truck.

So at first Jesus calls us into a place where he is showing us what we can do, We build trust with him, until we come to a point where God trusts us to go anywhere we desire with the gifts he has given us. Then comes discipleship, where we begin to teach others how God moves, and the heart he has. The analogy goes so far as to imply that we can even get out of the truck and decide to not get back in, or to stop driving around. But Jesus will come and pick us back up if we desire to join him again. I hope you like the analogy.

 

[brother daniel]

OK. Thanks.

Do you have examples when one was shown a reason why he/she was not healed that first time, repented and then was healed?

I have seen such things in my own life and person.

Since I was first converted I have witnessed healings in my own body and in other brethren.

It might appear to some that the perception that was exercised is a "common sense" approach and not a Supernatural gift. The pain is because he eats sugar.

There is no such thing as common sense.

Life itself is a supernatural gift and we know very little about it except from Jesus.

But thanks.

I am lookin at the list of illnesses and my previous question comes to mind.
How do you explain that we no longer see the miracles of Supernatural proportions (few days old corpses rising, shriveled hands growing) of 2000 years ago?

Signs are to follow us, not we signs.

I have seen doubt and unlelief quench the spirit of God.

Mat 13:54

And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this [man] this wisdom, and [these] mighty works?


Mat 13:55

Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?



Mat 13:56

And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this [man] all these things?



Mat 13:57

And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.


Mat 13:58

And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

How do you explain that ALL that came to Christ were healed yet the greatest majority that want to get healed today do not?

Unbelief is much more common today.

Very few of us today are as devout as those Jews from every land that were in Jerusalem for Penticost when the Holy Ghost was first poured on all flesh.

I have learned that when I am faithful and stay single minded on OUR FATHERS KINGDOM. with the scriptual words of Jesus ringing in my inner ear, healing signs follow and demons flee.

It is my experience, that when assembled with like minded brethren the power increases.

It appears that you are saying that a person does not get healed because he/she has no faith to be healed.

But how do you explain this text?
(And these are the instructions to us on "How to do it").
JAS 5:14 Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

Here, the faith of the elder that prays over that person is improtant and not the faith of the sick one.

It is up to you or I to be that elder until we meet a brother or sister that that we recognize as an elder. We need to have Our FATHER increase our faith.

Healing does happen when we personally bring our actions and thoughts in line with Christs.

I have heard others saying that one does not get healed because he has weak faith - I think that might be one of the phrases that could be reflective (not "is reflective" ) of a corruption of the leadership of a congregation - a topic we discussed earlier.


But we also know that it is not always God's will that one might be healed - Apostle Paul and his thorn comes to mind.

We have a thorn in our flesh to remind us we are yet, mortal in body.
Its humbling.

So, how does one know that one could ask and it will happen? In other words, how does one know that it is God's will for him to be healed?

It is Gods will that all will be healed who come to him.

How and when that healing is complete only God knows

.

I do not think too many people believe that we might convince God to go against his OWN will.
Asking for anything includes a condition that it is according to Hid will ...
1JN 5:14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us--whatever we ask--we know that we have what we asked of him.

1Th 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Doubt and unbelief is what gets in our way. If you doubt god is going to heal someone your praying for he wont. However you might doubt even as you are praying but another brother is praying without doubt and the one.
Jam 1:3

​

Knowing [this], that the trying of your faith worketh patience
Jam 1:4

​

But let patience have [her] perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
Jam 1:5

​

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Jam 1:6

​

But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
Jam 1:7

​

For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
Jam 1:8

​

A double minded man [is] unstable in all his ways.

As I write this I have to face my own doubts, admit them to god and be corrected.

How do you explain some people stating that since the healings are no longer a normative events, the gift of healing is also not normative?
The gift of healing clearly exists (it's in the Bible), but it is applicable perhabs in a places where the gospel has not been spread yet, such as some places in Africa and so forth.
(The original purpose of Christ's healings was to support his words of the Gospel).

Some people state a lot of things. Jesus is who I follow.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

I trust him to heal my, body mind, spirit and soul.
I expect to see many more healed by the words of Jesus Christ.l

With love in Christ
Brother daniel