What is the Christian God's end game?

Bible2 · Jul 2, 2009

maddog11 posted in message #67 of this thread:

Why would the eternal human beings, who may have no need of
sleep, NOT spend 100% of their time bowing down and praising God?

Eternal human beings, who may have no need of sleep, won't spend
100% of their time bowing down and praising God because he will
also give them other things to do for him, just as he does now
(1 Corinthians 12:28).

maddog11 posted in message #67 of this thread:

Doesn't this take away from God's glory?

Doing other things for God besides praising him doesn't take away
from his glory, but adds to his glory, for all obedience to God adds
to his glory.

maddog11 posted in message #67 of this thread:

(You defined "glory" as praising God, and the end purpose of
everything is to glorify God.)

Glorifying God wasn't defined as just praising him, but as honoring,
praising, or worshipping him. Christians can glorify God by honoring
him in other actions besides praising him (1 Corinthians 10:31).

maddog11 posted in message #67 of this thread:

Why would they do anything else?

Christians should do anything God tells them to do (John 15:14).

maddog11 posted in message #67 of this thread:

Wouldn't that be disobedient to the glorification of God?

Obeying God in other things besides praising him wouldn't be
disobedient to the glorification of God, for all obedience to God is to
the glorification of God.

Bible2 · Jul 2, 2009

maddog11 posted in message #69 of this thread:

The "end" I am looking for is the condition after which there is
nothing further, nothing new.

There will be no condition after which there is nothing further,
nothing new, for Christians will always be learning and doing more
and more new things over an eternity, and God could always be
creating new people, new worlds and new universes over an
eternity. But, at the same time, no thing (as opposed to people)
which God will create need be absolutely new, for he could have
already created an infinite number of other universes in which every
possible thing has already been created, every possible event has
already occurred (Ecclesiastes 1:10).

maddog11 · Jul 2, 2009

brinny said:
i'm sorry you cannot see the video. the "end" meaning the end of life in the flesh as we, who are but flesh, but dust, know it. After physical death comes resurrection for the righteous and resurrection for the damned. then everyone has their "day" in court, so to speak. The damned have no hope. they will be accused of every thought, word, and deed, ever committed, and an accuser will be announcing every single one. And there will be no Defender. Then sentence is passed. The damned are thrown into the everlasting lake of fire by God himself, to everlasting torment. The redeemed enter into the everlasting presence of God, Father, Abba, as stated in His Word.

Thank you for engaging with me, brinny.

Why does God want to personally throw members of his creation into everlasting fiery torment?

What are the criteria for the categories of "damned" and "redeemed"?

maddog11 · Jul 2, 2009

ANM29 said:
You are welcome.

I will try to explain as best I can, because the best way to know what his love means is to experience it for yourself personally.

You need a personal revelation of God and that will begin your journey to understand his love for you. It is one thing to tell you of his love from my experience, but God wants you to know him for yourself, his love for you, which can only be really understood through a Spiritual awakening in you of who GOD IS, that is the start of it anyway. From there through the Holy Spirit, It is a continous unfolding and developing revelation of his LOVE for you over time.

Because God is a Spirit, he is known through your spirit...( Since we are Spirits as God is ) and that love becomes a natural reality for you. He said we must worship him in Spirit and Truth..( Which is more than just praising him verbally, but a lifestyle of knowing him and living for him) which can only be done by his Spirit living through you...Your RE-BORN spirit.

Our Spirits must be RE-BORN to know his love for us, if not, we are void of this. We do not understand it, it makes no sense.

There are certain things that you will never understand until you have taken a step of faith toward God. He does not allow himself to be known to someone who heart is hard and who has not taken a step of faith toward him.

He is always knocking on the hearts of man, one way or another, he is always tapping us on our shoulder trying to get the attention of man. But, we don't always respond. Sometimes the heart is hard towards him. We must take that step of faith toward him, he longs for you to know him..He longs for it, He sent his Son that you don't have to walk around with a void in your life an emptiness. That emptiness can only be filled when you allow God into your heart.

Thank you ANM29. I am still uncertain what "love" means. You are saying that God purposefully hides himself from some people? How is that "love"? That also seems inconsistent with "always knocking on the hearts of man." I don't know what "knocking on the hearts of man" means. If God "longs for" human beings to know him, then he would know the way to do it, wouldn't he?

maddog11 · Jul 2, 2009

Bible2 said:
Love here means that emotion of tender
care that one being feels for another.

Throwing people into a lake of fire to burn and die eternally is the opposite of "tender caring."

maddog11 · Jul 2, 2009

maddog11 said:
So what you have described is not God's end-game then, because there is the yet another world?

Bible2 said:
The new earth (Revelation 21) will be the start of a new game, as it
were (although the word "game" cheapens it).

What is the ultimate point of the old round?

maddog11 said:
What happens ultimately to the new creation, the new human beings who fall into sin and mortality like present humanity?

Bible2 said:
Some of the new mortal race of humans on the new earth (Isaiah
65:17,20) could be saved like some of the mortal race of humans on
this old earth are saved.

What is the point of the new round?

brinny · Jul 2, 2009

maddog11 said:
Throwing people into a lake of fire to burn and die eternally is the opposite of "tender caring."

God Almighty will not always strive with man. On that appointed day, His fury will pour forth on those who gave no heed to His only begotten Son, who spurned, spat on, ignored, hated, belittled, and ridiculed Him. The door of grace will be closed. All will face a furious Almighty God. Paul WAsher said it like this...

it's as if, in the time of grace, while the door is open, God is holding back His fury until all who will cry out in repentence have done so, and He will forever shut the door of grace. The mountains will try to flee, those not redeemed by His Son, the un-redeemed, will try to hide from God Almighty's face, but there will be nowhere to hide. His full fury will be upon them. He tells us so in His Word:

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." ~Hebrews 10:31

maddog11 · Jul 2, 2009

maddog11 said:
What will happen if they do sin?

Bible2 said:
If a saved person in the eternal state in New Jerusalem on the new
earth (Revelation 21:1-4) commits a sin, what will happen to him
will depend on what he does next. If he repents, he will be forgiven
(1 John 1:9). If he refuses to repent, he will be chastened
(Revelation 3:19). And if he still refuses to repent, he will end up in
the lake of fire (Hebrews 10:26-27).

What does "repent" mean? What does "forgiven" mean? What is important about forgiveness?

maddog11 said:
by "real human being now" I was meaning to refer to your statement:

"Because of their continued free will, it will be possible for the saved
humans in New Jerusalem to sin, but they won't have to ever sin,
just as saved humans now don't have to ever sin"

but you now seem to agree with me that "real human beings now" -- even "saved humans now" -- are NOT capable of never-sinning.

Bible2 said:
Saved humans now are capable of never sinning (1 John 3:6-10).
It's just that there is probably no saved human now on the earth
who never sins (Ecclesiastes 7:20). For we can be capable of not
doing something, and yet still wrongly choose to do it.

If NO ONE can successfully manifest perfect obedience/sinlessness, how can it be said that anyone has the capability? For someone to have a capability, it has to be possible to achieve. No human being can achieve perfect obedience. No human being, even if they want to, can achieve perfect knowledge of what "obedience" means in a particular circumstance, as no human being can be sure of knowing all the pertinent facts.

maddog11 said:
If that is the case, then what distinguishes a "saved" person from an "unsaved" person? Both still sin, i.e. disobey.

Bible2 said:
What distinguishes a saved person from an unsaved person is that
the saved person is capable of never sinning (John 8:34-36), and if
he does sin and repents and confesses his sin to God, he is forgiven
for it (1 John 1:9). If he refuses to repent from his sins, then he will
end up like an unsaved person (Hebrews 10:26-27, Matthew 24:48-51).

How is the capability manifested, given that all human beings still sin, saved or not? How do you know it is a "capability" if no one is actually able to do it?

maddog11 said:
ARE Christians actually able to avoid sinning?

Bible2 said:
Christians are actually able to avoid sinning (Galatians 5:16).

Can you point out some Christians who actually do not sin?

maddog11 said:
I have never met a human being, even Christians, who are completely able to avoid sinning. (Using your def. of "sin" = "disobey God.)

Bible2 said:
One may have never met a Christian who completely avoids sinning,
but Christians are still capable of doing that (Romans 8:13b).

I would certainly like to meet someone who never sins.

maddog11 said:
Christians appear to continue to behave pretty much the same way as all other human beings, with the same issues, faults and mistakes. They do not behave noticeably differently from other human beings.

Bible2 said:
Because Christians are still humans like other humans, they will still
have the same issues, faults and mistakes as other humans. But
Christians have the capability to behave noticeably differently from
other humans (Philippians 2:15).

Who?

ANM29 · Jul 2, 2009

maddog11 said:
Thank you ANM29. I am still uncertain what "love" means. You are saying that God purposefully hides himself from some people? How is that "love"? That also seems inconsistent with "always knocking on the hearts of man." I don't know what "knocking on the hearts of man" means. If God "longs for" human beings to know him, then he would know the way to do it, wouldn't he?

You are welcome. No, I don't believe he hides himself purposely. ALL CREATION speaks of God's love in one way. Then there is knowing it personally for yourself.

I tell you what. Why don't you actually say a prayer and ask God to reveal to you what love is. Why don't you do that. What do you have to lose?

I think he can do a far better job than I can describe to you.

maddog11 · Jul 2, 2009

Bible2 said:
Eternal human beings, who may have no need of sleep, won't spend
100% of their time bowing down and praising God because he will
also give them other things to do for him, just as he does now
(1 Corinthians 12:28).

Doing other things for God besides praising him doesn't take away
from his glory, but adds to his glory, for all obedience to God adds
to his glory.

Glorifying God wasn't defined as just praising him, but as honoring,
praising, or worshipping him. Christians can glorify God by honoring
him in other actions besides praising him (1 Corinthians 10:31).

Christians should do anything God tells them to do (John 15:14).

Obeying God in other things besides praising him wouldn't be
disobedient to the glorification of God, for all obedience to God is to
the glorification of God.

Will the eternal human beings get to see and hear God in the New Jerusalem? When God gives them other assignments, will he tell them directly, like one person talks to another now?

Christians should do anything God tells them to do (John 15:14).

Is this Christians only?
Should people do ANYTHING God tells them to do? really?

maddog11 · Jul 2, 2009

ANM29 said:
You are welcome. No, I don't believe he hides himself purposely. ALL CREATION speaks of God's love in one way. Then there is knowing it personally for yourself.

I tell you what. Why don't you actually say a prayer and ask God to reveal to you what love is. Why don't you do that. What do you have to lose?

I think he can do a far better job than I can describe to you.

Thank you.

If God is not hiding himself purposely, then why did you say,

He does not allow himself to be known to someone who[se] heart is hard and who has not taken a step of faith toward him.

? It certainly sounds as though God is acting wilfully. He "does not allow." that is purposeful on God's part.

I don't mean exactly that I don't know what love means ... I have a pretty good idea, but it doesn't match very well with what religious believers describe as "love," so I get confused. I need to know what YOU mean when you use the word.

For example, you say, "ALL CREATION speaks of God's love in one way." What do you mean by that?

As to prayer ...
thank you for that suggestion. I have nothing to lose but a few moments to compose and quiet myself. Done.

maddog11 · Jul 2, 2009

maddog11 said:
Throwing people into a lake of fire to burn and die eternally is the opposite of "tender caring."

N.B. "tender caring" = "love"

brinny said:
God Almighty will not always strive with man. On that appointed day, His fury will pour forth on those who gave no heed to His only begotten Son, who spurned, spat on, ignored, hated, belittled, and ridiculed Him. The door of grace will be closed. All will face a furious Almighty God. Paul WAsher said it like this...

it's as if, in the time of grace, while the door is open, God is holding back His fury until all who will cry out in repentence have done so, and He will forever shut the door of grace. The mountains will try to flee, those not redeemed by His Son, the un-redeemed, will try to hide from God Almighty's face, but there will be nowhere to hide. His full fury will be upon them. He tells us so in His Word:

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." ~Hebrews 10:31

So you agree with me then, that God's conduct is not "loving."

ANM29 · Jul 2, 2009

maddog11 said:
Thank you.

If God is not hiding himself purposely, then why did you say, ? It certainly sounds as though God is acting wilfully. He "does not allow." that is purposeful on God's part.

I don't mean exactly that I don't know what love means ... I have a pretty good idea, but it doesn't match very well with what religious believers describe as "love," so I get confused. I need to know what YOU mean when you use the word.

For example, you say, "ALL CREATION speaks of God's love in one way." What do you mean by that?

As to prayer ...
thank you for that suggestion. I have nothing to lose but a few moments to compose and quiet myself. Done.

ALL CREATION simply means, Everything belongs to God and ALL things were created by him. It speaks of his majesty and power and absolute mystery really. Where did we come from, all this we see come from, God! Did we have a choice as to who we are, where we are born, etc...Nothing is just 'happening'. There is a powerful force in operation and it is God. What is life all about? Whey are we here? All these questions are legitimate questions that I even asked God...and he answered me. Some things he answered right then, some things he answered over a period of time.

Well, he does not make himself known in certain ways to people who hearts are hard...I should have said it that way.

If your heart is hard, you will not humble yourself and at least take a step of faith towards him.

Pride will tell you that you are your own god and you know best and you are all knowing and you are of your own, when in fact, we are not. We did not design ourselves, so how can we truly know ourselves and know why we are here without the assistance of our Creator?

No, you have nothing to lose.

maddog11 · Jul 2, 2009

ANM29 said:
ALL CREATION simply means, Everything belongs to God and ALL things were created by him.

God appears to have created a lot of empty space as well as "things." Some of the "things" are sentient/conscious, but most of the "things" are not. I am not sure what you mean when you say that "ALL CREATION speaks of God's love." What I understand "love" to be does not have any obvious connection to vast empty space and a lot of non-sentient matter. I am confused about what "love" means in the statement, "ALL CREATION speaks of God's love." What's love got to do with it? (to coin a phrase )

ANM29 said:
It speaks of his majesty and power and absolute mystery really.

Yes, the universe is majestic and mysterious (in the sense that there is much about it that I do not know and do not understand). I see the universe, the stars, the space, the planets, the earth, the land, the sea, objects, living things and other people. That's what I see. Apparently that's what you see, too, but you are seeing something else in addition to that. I'm not seeing the something else. Can you point it out to me?

ANM29 said:
Where did we come from, all this we see come from, ...

Yes, people wonder that. Over the milennia, many different people have come up with many different answers. Your answer is only one among many. Personally, my answer is "I don't know."

ANM29 said:
Did we have a choice as to who we are, where we are born, etc...Nothing is just 'happening'. There is a powerful force in operation and it is God. What is life all about? Wh[]y are we here? All these questions are legitimate questions that I even asked God...and he answered me. Some things he answered right then, some things he answered over a period of time.

Unlike you, I have not received answers.

ANM29 said:
Well, he does not make himself known in certain ways to people who[se] hearts are hard...I should have said it that way.

Almost everybody I know is very tender-hearted. I don't know what you mean by someone whose "heart is hard." In addition, there are numerous counter-examples, such as God's striking of Paul on the road to Damascus. God DOES (and he certainly always CAN) reach out to make himself known, even to those whose hearts might be "hard." Why will he do it for some but not others?

ANM29 said:
If your heart is hard, you will not humble yourself and at least take a ste[p] of faith towards him.

Almost everyone I know has no problem with humility.

ANM29 said:
Pride will tell you that you are your own god and you know best and you are all knowing and you are of your own, when in fact, we are not.

I do not know anyone who thinks this.

ANM29 said:
We did not design ourselves, so how can we truly know ourselves and know why we are here without the assistance of our Creator?

Seeking self-knowledge ("know thyself") has been prized at least since the Greeks invented philosophy.

brinny · Jul 2, 2009

Originally Posted by maddog11
Throwing people into a lake of fire to burn and die eternally is the opposite of "tender caring."
N.B. "tender caring" = "love"

Originally Posted by brinny
God Almighty will not always strive with man. On that appointed day, His fury will pour forth on those who gave no heed to His only begotten Son, who spurned, spat on, ignored, hated, belittled, and ridiculed Him. The door of grace will be closed. All will face a furious Almighty God. Paul WAsher said it like this...

it's as if, in the time of grace, while the door is open, God is holding back His fury until all who will cry out in repentence have done so, and He will forever shut the door of grace. The mountains will try to flee, those not redeemed by His Son, the un-redeemed, will try to hide from God Almighty's face, but there will be nowhere to hide. His full fury will be upon them. He tells us so in His Word:

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." ~Hebrews 10:31

maddog11 said:
N.B. "tender caring" = "love"

So you agree with me then, that God's conduct is not "loving."

Those who deliberately and consistently oppose Him He deems an enemy. For they are. The love that is spoken of is for those who will seek repentence and His forgiveness. He loves them and tenderly cares for them as an Abba, a Father. He protects them like a Shepherd protects His sheep. The enemy gets the staff, His wrath, His fury. THe enemy will see Him face to face and be terrified to the nth degree, with no place to hide. It will all come together at that time and all that the enemy thought , said, or did, will be laid out and the enemy will be compelled to agree that they are indeed deserving of a holy God's wrath.

God speaks of this. What do you think His face will look like when He throws His enemies into the lake of fire? Do you think it will be a loving look? The time of grace will be over. What is left, for His enemies, is His wrath, His fury.

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." ~Hebrews 10:31

God is not a benign marshmallow of sentimentality.

ANM29 · Jul 2, 2009

maddog11 said:
God appears to have created a lot of empty space as well as "things." Some of the "things" are sentient/conscious, but most of the "things" are not. I am not sure what you mean when you say that "ALL CREATION speaks of God's love." What I understand "love" to be does not have any obvious connection to vast empty space and a lot of non-sentient matter. I am confused about what "love" means in the statement, "ALL CREATION speaks of God's love." What's love got to do with it? (to coin a phrase )

Yes, the universe is majestic and mysterious (in the sense that there is much about it that I do not know and do not understand). I see the universe, the stars, the space, the planets, the earth, the land, the sea, objects, living things and other people. That's what I see. Apparently that's what you see, too, but you are seeing something else in addition to that. I'm not seeing the something else. Can you point it out to me?

Yes, people wonder that. Over the milennia, many different people have come up with many different answers. Your answer is only one among many. Personally, my answer is "I don't know." Unlike you, I have not received answers.

Almost everybody I know is very tender-hearted. I don't know what you mean by someone whose "heart is hard." In addition, there are numerous counter-examples, such as God's striking of Paul on the road to Damascus. God DOES (and he certainly always CAN) reach out to make himself known, even to those whose hearts might be "hard." Why will he do it for some but not others?

Almost everyone I know has no problem with humility.

I do not know anyone who thinks this. Seeking self-knowledge ("know thyself") has been prized at least since the Greeks invented philosophy.

Well, my dear, you must take a step of faith toward your Creator. I don't know what else to say. You have to make that decision. He will not turn his back when you seek him, that is a promise. He is just waiting to reveal himself to you.

All the wisdom in the world we think we have does not compare to the wisdom of deciding to humble yourself before God.

I love you and you will be in my prayers.

brinny · Jul 2, 2009

there's a book you can read if you wish. It's called the Bible. It begins in Genesis, and ends in Revelation. In its pages are God-inspired writings from His children. If you do start reading it, i recommend Psalms, Proverbs, and Isaiah, but they are just my preferences.

You could, of course, take your questions to God....If you are sincere. If not, why bother with the questions, the typing the words into your computer, the seeming not grasping even one of the many responses to your questions.

Does it matter to you if you understand, believe in, or even give this God a passing thought? Because when all is said and done, it's between you and this God, isn't it?

If you really do want to explore this further, along with you reading the Bible, there are videos that i can send you links for. Some of what the spekers speak on addresses some of your questions and they also challenge the listener to examine themselves. Let me know if you're interested.

maddog11 · Jul 2, 2009

brinny said:
Those who deliberately and consistently oppose Him He deems an enemy. For they are. The love that is spoken of is for those who will seek repentence and His forgiveness. He loves them and tenderly cares for them as an Abba, a Father. He protects them like a Shepherd protects His sheep. The enemy gets the staff, His wrath, His fury. THe enemy will see Him face to face and be terrified to the nth degree, with no place to hide. It will all come together at that time and all that the enemy thought , said, or did, will be laid out and the enemy will be compelled to agree that they are indeed deserving of a holy God's wrath.

God speaks of this. What do you think His face will look like when He throws His enemies into the lake of fire? Do you think it will be a loving look? The time of grace will be over. What is left, for His enemies, is His wrath, His fury.

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." ~Hebrews 10:31

God is not a benign marshmallow of sentimentality.

So you agree with me that God is not "loving" toward all human beings.

brinny · Jul 2, 2009

maddog11 said:
So you agree with me that God is not "loving" toward all human beings.

Have you read the Bible or any portions thereof? The answers are within those pages. If ye seek ye shall find, dear heart.

maddog11 · Jul 2, 2009

ANM29 said:
Well, my dear, you must take a step of faith toward your Creator. I don't know what else to say. You have to make that decision. He will not turn his back when you seek him, that is a promise. He is just waiting to reveal himself to you.

All the wisdom in the world we think we have does not compare to the wisdom of deciding to humble yourself before God.

I love you and you will be in my prayers.

Done many times. I don't know what else to say. Human beings make many promises on behalf of God.

Thank you for your compassion. THAT is the love I know ... one human being to another. Your sentiments are returned equally.

What is the Christian God's end game?

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