What is the Christian God's end game?

Bible2 · Jun 29, 2009

maddog11 posted in message #32 of this thread:

What is "best" for human beings about eternal praise/eternal
torment?

Greetings.

What is "best" for human beings about eternal praise of God and
obedience to God is that it keeps them from slavery to sin (Romans
6:16-23) and keeps them in an eternal life of bliss (Psalms 16:11).
It isn't "best" for human beings themselves to be in eternal torment,
but the purpose of Creation as a whole is not what is best for
mankind as a whole, but what gives God pleasure (Revelation 4:11).
God will take no pleasure in the eternal torment of human beings per
se, for "As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death
of the wicked" (Ezekiel 33:11). But it will give God pleasure to have
the opportunity eternally "to shew his wrath, and to make his power
known" (Romans 9:22).

Bible2 · Jun 29, 2009

maddog11 posted in message #33 of this thread:

How does eternally torturing conscious, sentient, feeling beings bring
"honor"?

God will be honored by saved humanity and the unfallen angels when
they see the awesome display of his holy, righteous wrath, and his
power, against wicked mankind (Romans 9:22, Revelation 20:15,
14:10-11) and against Satan and the fallen angels (Matthew
25:41,46, Revelation 20:10).

maddog11 posted in message #33 of this thread:

What is "holy" and "righteous" about God's wrath?

What is holy and righteous about God's wrath is that it is based on
how utterly pure he is (1 John 1:5), and how utterly evil sin is (John
3:19-20).

maddog11 posted in message #33 of this thread:

What is "sin"?

Sin is anything we do in which we depart from obedience to God and
try to exist on our own (John 3:20), even though God is the only
source of all existence and blessing (Acts 17:28, Psalms 16:11).

maddog11 posted in message #33 of this thread:

What does "obey the truth" mean?

To obey the truth means to obey Jesus (John 14:6,21-24, Hebrews
5:9).

maddog11 posted in message #33 of this thread:

How does one know what is "the truth"?

One knows what is the truth by reading the Bible (2 Timothy
3:15-4:4).

Bible2 · Jun 29, 2009

maddog11 posted in message #34 of this thread:

If God needs nothing, why does he want pleasure?

God wants pleasure because it feels good, just as we want pleasure
because it feels good (Psalms 36:8).

maddog11 posted in message #34 of this thread:

Why does God take pleasure in the eternal torment of many of his
children?

Those humans who will be eternally tormented are not God's children,
but the children of Satan (Matthew 13:38-42, John 8:42-47,
Matthew 25:41,46).

maddog11 posted in message #34 of this thread:

What is pleasurable to God about showing wrath and making his
power known?

What is pleasurable to God (Revelation 4:11) about showing his
wrath and making his power known (Romans 9:22) is the pleasure of
self-expression, like the pleasure we humans take in expressing our
good qualities. What is also pleasurable to God about showing his
wrath and making his power known is the pleasure of receiving honor
on account of his good qualities, like the pleasure we humans take in
receiving honor on account of our good qualities.

Bible2 · Jun 29, 2009

maddog11 posted in message #36 of this thread:

Do human beings still eat, sleep, work, play, whatever?

Yes. In the eternal state, saved humans will still eat, work, and play.
They may not have to sleep, however, as their eternal bodies and
brains may be able to maintain themselves without sleep.

maddog11 posted in message #36 of this thread:

Do they spend 100% percent of their time bowing down and praising?

No. Saved humans in the eternal state will live in a literal city on a
new earth (Revelation 21:2-4,10-26) with the garden of paradise in
the midst of the city (Revelation 22:2, 2:7), and so they will do all
of the good things which humans do in cities and nature-parks today.
Also, some saved humans could be assigned to projects away from
the earth, such as on the second planet from the sun (Revelation
2:28), which they could terraform for God. They could also terraform
the fourth planet from the sun, and other planets in other star-
systems, which they could then take care of and rule over for God.

maddog11 posted in message #36 of this thread:

What happens to all the animals?

Animals will still exist; all carnivorous animals will become vegetarians
(Isaiah 65:25).

maddog11 posted in message #36 of this thread:

There is no currently existing unseen realm of "heaven"

The third heaven spiritual realm (2 Corinthians 12:2, Revelation
4:1-2) will co-exist with the new earth, which will remain in the
physical dimensions of our current earth.

maddog11 posted in message #36 of this thread:

There is no currently existing invisible underground "hell," but the
lake of fire will exist in the real earth in real time, outside the "New
Jerusalem," is that right?

That's right. The lake of fire will exist on the new earth outside the
walls of New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:14-15, 21:8). A lot else will
also exist on the new earth outside the walls of New Jerusalem, for
an entirely new race of humans will be created along with the new
earth, which race will fall into sin and mortality, although they will
normally die at advanced ages (Isaiah 65:17,20). Saved humans of
the old earth could be like the angels of the new earth. They could
minister to elect members of the new race of humans like angels
now minister to elect humans (Hebrews 1:14).

DarwinianII · Jun 29, 2009

FutureAndAHope said:
I feel like my knowledge of that area is only partly realised. It is hard to say what Gods reasons are for things. However he gives a picture of how things will be in the gospels. It is primarily about seperation, seperation of the good verses the bad. Those who practice good will be rewarded with eternal life in heaven. Those who practice evil will be eternally seperated from any good in hell. I don't think those things come as any suprise to you, but it is difficult to elaborate any further on those themes.

He gives specific examples of what is good and what is bad through out the bible. Those who remember the poor, i.e. give to the poor are good. Those who feed and cloth the poor are depicted as good. Those who do good to the least significant ones are seen as good. Those who keep them selves from sexual imorallity are seen as good. The bad are those who practice sexual imorality, war mongers, those who refuse to help the poor are seen as bad. This is just a general list but it might help clarify things a little.

Hello Future, fancy meeting you here, remember when we locked horns over at atheistforums.org?

Anyway, you seem to be saying that good people go to heaven and bad people don't. Does this mean that good atheists go to heaven and bad christians don't?

One of my 'many' problems with Christianity was that it seemed the only way to get into heaven was to be a Christian, no matter how good or bad you were. For example, a child molesting, wife beating murderer who happened to be a Christian was saved whilst a kind, generous, selfless and truly altruistic atheist would end up in hell.

Are you saying that I've had it wrong all these years? I hope so.

maddog11 · Jun 29, 2009

do the reformed human beings of the new Jerusalem have free will?
do they sin?

maddog11 · Jun 29, 2009

Bible2 said:
Greetings.

What is "best" for human beings about eternal praise of God and
obedience to God is that it keeps them from slavery to sin (Romans
6:16-23) and keeps them in an eternal life of bliss (Psalms 16:11).
It isn't "best" for human beings themselves to be in eternal torment,
but the purpose of Creation as a whole is not what is best for
mankind as a whole, but what gives God pleasure (Revelation 4:11).
God will take no pleasure in the eternal torment of human beings per
se, for "As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death
of the wicked" (Ezekiel 33:11). But it will give God pleasure to have
the opportunity eternally "to shew his wrath, and to make his power
known" (Romans 9:22).

Ebia said God wants what is "best for his Creation," but now you seem to be saying he wants to give himself pleasure, even at the expense of some of his Creation (eternal torment).

Bible2 · Jun 30, 2009

maddog11 posted in message #46 of this thread:

do the reformed human beings of the new Jerusalem have free will?

Greetings.

The saved humans in New Jerusalem will have free will. God wants
real children (Revelation 21:7), not robots.

maddog11 posted in message #46 of this thread:

do they sin?

Because of their continued free will, it will be possible for the saved
humans in New Jerusalem to sin, but they won't have to ever sin,
just as saved humans now don't have to ever sin (Romans 6:17-22).

Bible2 · Jun 30, 2009

maddog11 posted in message #47 of this thread:

Ebia said God wants what is "best for his Creation,"

It's true that God wants what is best for his Creation (Romans 8:21).
The only exception is the human vessels of wrath (Romans 9:22).

maddog11 posted in message #47 of this thread:

but now you seem to be saying he wants to give himself pleasure

The Bible says that God created everything for his pleasure
(Revelation 4:11).

maddog11 posted in message #47 of this thread:

even at the expense of some of his Creation (eternal torment).

That's right, for the pleasure of the infinite, holy God outranks
what is best for some infinitesimal, wicked humans. All of humanity
together is less than nothing compared with God (Isaiah 40:17). But
he will still take no pleasure in the torment (the second death:
Revelation 21:8, 20:10,15, 14:10-11) of the wicked, "For I have no
pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD" (Ezekiel
18:32). God will only take pleasure in that through the torment of
the wicked he will be able to eternally show his holy, righteous wrath
against evil, and make his power known (Romans 9:22).

maddog11 · Jun 30, 2009

ephraimanesti said:
JESUS is the TRUTH.

PERIOD!

maddog11 said:
What does this mean? How does it help anyone in any choice or decision?

ephraimanesti said:
It simply means that Jesus, as the source of all Truth, is the only source of legitimate guidance for those in doubt regarding choices and decisions which they must make.

The indwelling Holy Spirit has been given for just this purpose, and, when in doubt, God's wonderful promise--"ASK AND YOU WILL RECEIVE"(John 16:24)--applies when seeking answers, guidance, and solutions. As James states, "IF ANY OF YOU LACKS WISDOM, HE SHOULD ASK GOD, WHO GIVES GENEROUSLY TO ALL WITHOUT FINDING FAULT, AND IT WILL BE GIVEN TO HIM."(James 1:5)

Of course there is a small catch--you have to believe in the existence of the Giver before you can receive the gift.

ephraim

That is not a "small catch." That is a huge "catch."

Even so, the mechanics you describe do not seem to result in sure knowledge or guidance. Equally sincere, equally believing Christians do just as you say, and resort only to Jesus as "truth," yet come to different answers on various questions. They pray devoutly, sincerely, they seek to do what God/Jesus tells them, and yet they have received different answers to the same question. For example, to the question, "Is it obedient and righteous to take part in political life?" some sincere and devout Christians have been told "yes," and others have been told "no."
Thus, your statement, "Jesus is the Truth, Period." has not apparently provided clear guidance to know what is right.

maddog11 · Jun 30, 2009

maddog11 said:
do the reformed human beings of the new Jerusalem have free will?
do they sin?

Bible2 said:
Greetings.

The saved humans in New Jerusalem will have free will. God wants
real children (Revelation 21:7), not robots.

Thank you.

maddog11 said:
do they sin?

Bible2 said:
Because of their continued free will, it will be possible for the saved
humans in New Jerusalem to sin, but they won't have to ever sin,
just as saved humans now don't have to ever sin (Romans 6:17-22).

"never hav[ing] to sin" is not the same thing as "never sinning." My question was, DO they sin, not do they "have to" sin.

what real human beings now *never* sin? How are they able to avoid *sin*?

ephraimanesti · Jun 30, 2009

maddog11 said:
That is not a "small catch." That is a huge "catch."

MY FRIEND,

Not so huge, actually, given that it takes a lot less faith to believe and trust in God than to deny His existence and ignore Him.

maddog11 said:
Even so, the mechanics you describe do not seem to result in sure knowledge or guidance. Equally sincere, equally believing Christians do just as you say, and resort only to Jesus as "truth," yet come to different answers on various questions. They pray devoutly, sincerely, they seek to do what God/Jesus tells them, and yet they have received different answers to the same question. For example, to the question, "Is it obedient and righteous to take part in political life?" some sincere and devout Christians have been told "yes," and others have been told "no."

There are no "one size fits all" answers in God's dealings with us and in our following His will. For some it may well be "obedient and righteous" to take part in political life, while for others the opposite. Our Lord deals with us as individuals, according to our needs, and strengths, and weaknesses. As history amply demonstrates, some can use political power as a tool to bring about good for society, while others become enslaved to the system and have it become their "god". God, knowing each persons' heart, directs them accordingly.

A biblical example of this uncookiecutter-like approach to personal direction used by God would be our Lord's injunction to the rich young man who asked Jesus what he lacked in his quest for eternal life and He replied that the young man needed to "sell all you have and give to the poor."(Matthew 19:21) Obviously, that was a personalized injunction to that particular young man given his fixation and enslavement to wealth rather than a blanket commandment for all Christians.

maddog11 said:
Thus, your statement, "Jesus is the Truth, Period." has not apparently provided clear guidance to know what is right.

It has worked flawlessly for millions--myself included--over two thousand years. How can you condemn what you haven't experienced?

A BOND-SLAVE/FRIEND/BROTHER OF OUR LORD/GOD/SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST,
ephraim

ANM29 · Jul 1, 2009

maddog11 said:
What is the anticipated end result of God's scheme for mankind, in the Christian view?

That all men might know his love for them and know him in Spirit and Truth.

Bible2 · Jul 1, 2009

maddog11 posted in message #50 of this thread:

the mechanics you describe do not seem to result in sure knowledge
or guidance.

Greetings.

Sure knowledge and guidance is found in the Bible (2 Timothy 3:15-4:4).

maddog11 posted in message #50 of this thread:

Equally sincere, equally believing Christians do just as you say, and
resort only to Jesus as "truth," yet come to different answers on
various questions.

The correct answer on various questions is not arrived by solely by
sincerity and belief, but also by diligent study of every word of the
Bible (Isaiah 28:9-10, 1 Corinthians 2:13, Matthew 4:4).

maddog11 posted in message #50 of this thread:

For example, to the question, "Is it obedient and righteous to take
part in political life?" some sincere and devout Christians have been
told "yes," and others have been told "no."

Christians must not be yoked together with non-Christians in political
parties or in any other cause (2 Corinthians 6:15-18, Revelation 18:4,
1 John 5:19). Christians must not take part in political battles or any
other non-spiritual battles (2 Corinthians 10:3-5, Ephesians 6:12).

Bible2 · Jul 1, 2009

maddog11 posted in message #51 of this thread:

DO they sin

The Bible doesn't say either way that all of the saved people in New
Jerusalem will sin or never sin, or that some will sin while others will
never sin. But because they will all still have free will, it will be
possible for all of them to sin.

maddog11 posted in message #51 of this thread:

what real human beings now *never* sin?

Jesus is a real human being (Romans 1:3) who never sins
(Hebrews 4:15). But there may be no human being physically on the
earth today who never sins (Ecclesiastes 7:20).

maddog11 posted in message #51 of this thread:

How are they able to avoid *sin*?

Christians are able to avoid sinning by drawing upon the power of
the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:16, Romans 8:13), the power of Jesus
(John 8:34-36, 1 John 3:6-10).

maddog11 · Jul 1, 2009

ephraimanesti said:
There are no "one size fits all" answers in God's dealings with us and in our following His will. For some it may well be "obedient and righteous" to take part in political life, while for others the opposite. Our Lord deals with us as individuals, according to our needs, and strengths, and weaknesses.

Bible2 appears to disagree with you. S/HE claims it is abundantly clear from scripture that

Christians must not be yoked together with non-Christians in political
parties or in any other cause (2 Corinthians 6:15-18, Revelation 18:4,
1 John 5:19). Christians must not take part in political battles or any
other non-spiritual battles (2 Corinthians 10:3-5, Ephesians 6:12).

Which view is right (i.e., obedient to God) and how does someone know?

ephraimanesti said:
A biblical example of this uncookiecutter-like approach to personal direction used by God would be our Lord's injunction to the rich young man who asked Jesus what he lacked in his quest for eternal life and He replied that the young man needed to "sell all you have and give to the poor."(Matthew 19:21) Obviously, that was a personalized injunction to that particular young man given his fixation and enslavement to wealth rather than a blanket commandment for all Christians.

There appear to be many Christians who disagree with you about this, as well, and have viewed Jesus's statement as a general commandment to obey. They have renounced wealth and worldly goods and give to the poor.

ephraimanesti said:
It has worked flawlessly for millions--myself included--over two thousand years. How can you condemn what you haven't experienced?

It does not appear to have worked "flawlessly," as there is no human being who demonstrates perfect obedience to God (i.e., knows from God's instruction exactly what to do in every situation to avoid "sin.") Everybody, Christian or not, sins (disobeys) anyway.

I do not condemn seeking to do what is right.

maddog11 · Jul 1, 2009

ANM29 said:
That all men might know his love for them and know him in Spirit and Truth.

thank you for your response.

What does this mean? In particular, what does "love" mean in this context? What does it mean to "know God in Spirit and in Truth"?

maddog11 · Jul 1, 2009

Bible2 said:
A lot else will
also exist on the new earth outside the walls of New Jerusalem, for
an entirely new race of humans will be created along with the new
earth, which race will fall into sin and mortality, although they will
normally die at advanced ages (Isaiah 65:17,20). Saved humans of
the old earth could be like the angels of the new earth. They could
minister to elect members of the new race of humans like angels
now minister to elect humans (Hebrews 1:14).

So what you have described is not God's end-game then, because there is the yet another world? What happens ultimately to the new creation, the new human beings who fall into sin and mortality like present humanity?

maddog11 · Jul 1, 2009

Bible2 said:
Christians must not be yoked together with non-Christians in political
parties or in any other cause (2 Corinthians 6:15-18, Revelation 18:4,
1 John 5:19). Christians must not take part in political battles or any
other non-spiritual battles (2 Corinthians 10:3-5, Ephesians 6:12).

So, anyone who calls him/herself a Christian and is a member of any political party, or who participates in political discourse cannot be a "True Christian"? Is it okay to belong to a "Christians-only" political party, as long as that party does not participate in any "non-spiritual" debates or issues? What is a spiritual battle versus a non-spiritual battle? How does one know?

brinny · Jul 1, 2009

maddog11 said:
What is the anticipated end result of God's scheme for mankind, in the Christian view?

the final end is that we all get our day in court, every-single-one-of-us, literally:

YouTube - The Judgment Seat of Christ - Leonard Ravenhill (FULL)

What is the Christian God's end game?

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