What is the Catholic Church's teaching on killing in an unjust war?

MikeK

Traditionalist Catholic
Feb 4, 2004
32,104
5,649
Wisconsin
✟90,821.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
First: This is not a political thread. The topic does not concern any specific wars or military action, past or present. Please refrain from referencing any of them. It is sufficient to say that some wars have met the Catholic definition of a just war, some have not.

I've been thinking about this, and I don't know the answer to these 3 questions: (see next post)
 

MikeK

Traditionalist Catholic
Feb 4, 2004
32,104
5,649
Wisconsin
✟90,821.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
1) If a person enlists or is a conscript in a military which is involved in an unjust war, is that person warranted in using deadly force against military enemies? That is, can one fight for his buddies in a battle, even though the war as a whole is gravely wrong?

2) If the same person is not a foot-soldier but rather part of a theatre-attacking force, is there any difference? There are generally more non-combatant lives taken in a city-leveling bombing raid (even if they do center around a target of military value, such as a shipyard) than buy weapons of mass destructionan individuals with rifles who are at least in some circumstances capable of knowing who to direct fire at and who not to. What if the war is just, does that change anything?

3) What about strategic forces? The Church is opposed to weapons of mass destruction. Is a Catholic ever allowed to serve in a role that could be tasked with the creation, maintenence, or use of megaton-level nuclear weapons which, by their nature, would kill tens of thousands of non-combatants?
 
Upvote 0

Michie

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
166,606
56,239
Woods
✟4,673,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Isn't this covered in the 5th commandment?

CCC-
. RESPECT FOR HUMAN LIFE

The witness of sacred history
2259 In the account of Abel's murder by his brother Cain,57 Scripture reveals the presence of anger and envy in man, consequences of original sin, from the beginning of human history. Man has become the enemy of his fellow man. God declares the wickedness of this fratricide: "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to me from the ground. And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand."58

2260 The covenant between God and mankind is interwoven with reminders of God's gift of human life and man's murderous violence:
For your lifeblood I will surely require a reckoning. . . . Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image.59
The Old Testament always considered blood a sacred sign of life.60 This teaching remains necessary for all time.

2261 Scripture specifies the prohibition contained in the fifth commandment: "Do not slay the innocent and the righteous."61 The deliberate murder of an innocent person is gravely contrary to the dignity of the human being, to the golden rule, and to the holiness of the Creator. The law forbidding it is universally valid: it obliges each and everyone, always and everywhere.

2262 In the Sermon on the Mount, the Lord recalls the commandment, "You shall not kill,"62 and adds to it the proscription of anger, hatred, and vengeance. Going further, Christ asks his disciples to turn the other cheek, to love their enemies.63 He did not defend himself and told Peter to leave his sword in its sheath.64

Legitimate defense

2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."65

2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:
If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.66
2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

2266 The efforts of the state to curb the spread of behavior harmful to people's
rights and to the basic rules of civil society correspond to the requirement of safeguarding the common good. Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict punishment proportionate to the gravity of the offense. Punishment has the primary aim of redressing the disorder introduced by the offense. When it is willingly accepted by the guilty party, it assumes the value of expiation. Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people's safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.67

2267 Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor.

If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically nonexistent."68

Intentional homicide

2268 The fifth commandment forbids direct and intentional killing as gravely sinful. The murderer and those who cooperate voluntarily in murder commit a sin that cries out to heaven for vengeance.69

Infanticide,70 fratricide, parricide, and the murder of a spouse are especially grave crimes by reason of the natural bonds which they break. Concern for eugenics or public health cannot justify any murder, even if commanded by public authority.

2269 The fifth commandment forbids doing anything with the intention of indirectly bringing about a person's death. The moral law prohibits exposing someone to mortal danger without grave reason, as well as refusing assistance to a person in danger.
The acceptance by human society of murderous famines, without efforts to remedy them, is a scandalous injustice and a grave offense. Those whose usurious and avaricious dealings lead to the hunger and death of their brethren in the human family indirectly commit homicide, which is imputable to them.71
Unintentional killing is not morally imputable. But one is not exonerated from grave offense if, without proportionate reasons, he has acted in a way that brings about someone's death, even without the intention to do so.
 
Upvote 0

Davidnic

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2006
33,112
11,338
✟788,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
A bunch of different moral theology comes into play. Also it will depend, has the Church spoken against the war, specifically condemned it and some other factors. When the little one naps or sleeps tonight I will try to give my thoughts.
 
Upvote 0

Michie

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
166,606
56,239
Woods
✟4,673,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I don't think the average GI's for instance that fought in unjust wars are judged as murderers. I do not think that the Church has ever taught that all the Germans and Italians who fought for Hitler's unjust war were murderers.
 
Upvote 0

Michie

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
166,606
56,239
Woods
✟4,673,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
A bunch of different moral theology comes into play. Also it will depend, has the Church spoken against the war, specifically condemned it and some other factors. When the little one naps or sleeps tonight I will try to give my thoughts.
Isn't a soldier obliged to fulfill his duty so any deaths at his hands is not on his conscience but on the military leaders who direct him to kill?

And isn't there a difference in killing & murder?
 
Upvote 0

MikeK

Traditionalist Catholic
Feb 4, 2004
32,104
5,649
Wisconsin
✟90,821.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Isn't this covered in the 5th commandment?

If it is, then there are an awful lot of jobs in the United States military which are simply off-limits to Catholics...I don't see any way that an American Catholic could serve in the USN or USAF, given that each force uses a large percent of it's assets to preserve the ability to launch strategic weapons. While one could argue (for example) that serving on a Destroyer might be okay, as Destroyers in the USN do not currently have a nuclear role, part of their role is to provide some protection for vessels that do have nuclear-weapon delivery as part of their role. Similarily, the USAF Dentist working at an airbase that supports strategic bombers could not be a Catholic, because part of his or her service would involve keeping that force fit to fight. Is that right?
 
Upvote 0

MikeK

Traditionalist Catholic
Feb 4, 2004
32,104
5,649
Wisconsin
✟90,821.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Isn't a soldier obliged to fulfill his duty so any deaths at his hands is not on his conscience but on the military leaders who direct him to kill?

No. Legally obliged perhaps (though such a law would be unjust), but not morally obliged. We are, even if we are soldiers, obliged to disobey unjust orders.

And isn't there a difference in killing & murder?

Yes. Wars can have both.
 
Upvote 0

Colin

Senior Veteran
Jun 9, 2010
11,093
6,889
✟122,403.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK - SNP
" Today , the scale and horror of modern warfare - whether nuclear or not - makes it totally unacceptable as a means of settling differences between nations . " ( Pope John Paul 2 , Pentecost 1982 ) .

" In this hour of great danger I want to repeat that war cannot be an instrument for solving problems between nations . " ( Pope John Paul 2 , 20th Jan 1991 ) .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gwendolyn
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Davidnic

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2006
33,112
11,338
✟788,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
In a just war, legitimate defense comes into play. It can even come into play in a war that us unjust that the Church has said should not be happening. It can not come into play easily if the action is directly condemned.

In all of the the Church gives great discretion to national leaders unless there are issues of atrocity or obvious unjust aggression.

WWII is generally considered just, if we set aside the Nuclear bomb issue (which is separate). Also, the recent action in Libya is so far by the USCCB considered a just action (link).

But even if someone is a soldier in a war considered either unjust or morally ambiguous there would be no moral issue on them unless they joined with the intend to kill rather then the intent to defend, even if killing was a part of that. Generally individual or part of an attacking force the same applies.

The nuclear issue. You will get slightly different opinions on this, the vast majority of moral theologians will go with the answer that we can never justly take part in the launching, dropping or detonation of a nuclear weapon. There are some who disagree but in general most would say no. As far as maintenance on the device. Since that is necessary for the safety of the device it would be allowed.

The issue of if one could ever be used is in the proportionate damage part of the just war criteria.
 
Upvote 0

Michie

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
166,606
56,239
Woods
✟4,673,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
If it is, then there are an awful lot of jobs in the United States military which are simply off-limits to Catholics...I don't see any way that an American Catholic could serve in the USN or USAF, given that each force uses a large percent of it's assets to preserve the ability to launch strategic weapons. While one could argue (for example) that serving on a Destroyer might be okay, as Destroyers in the USN do not currently have a nuclear role, part of their role is to provide some protection for vessels that do have nuclear-weapon delivery as part of their role. Similarily, the USAF Dentist working at an airbase that supports strategic bombers could not be a Catholic, because part of his or her service would involve keeping that force fit to fight. Is that right?
Its a muddy subject. I don't think the RCC while they may object to a war they see as unjust can condemn those obligated under military duty to follow their superiors.

If the Goverment deems torture or execution justifiable & the RCC does not. I would think that the burden would fall o the soldier asked to carry out the order.

This brings up all sorts of questions.

Pope Benedict served for awhile under combat as a Hitler Youth.

Pope Pius??
 
Upvote 0

Davidnic

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2006
33,112
11,338
✟788,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Isn't a soldier obliged to fulfill his duty so any deaths at his hands is not on his conscience but on the military leaders who direct him to kill?

And isn't there a difference in killing & murder?

To a degree. There is a point where the individual must make the moral stand. For instance if a leader said: "Kill all the children in the village." The soldier would bear personal responsibility for that because it is beyond the authority of legitimate authority to order that.

In general battle, even in an unjust war, if the soldier is doing it for defense and protection of loved ones and has the honest mindset of legitimate defense that may require killing...they are not a murderer. If they are there to kill and relish it or look for it..well, then we have a different issue.

There is a difference between killing and murder. And it comes into play. Actually they are essentially two different moral acts.
 
Upvote 0

MikeK

Traditionalist Catholic
Feb 4, 2004
32,104
5,649
Wisconsin
✟90,821.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The nuclear issue. You will get slightly different opinions on this, the vast majority of moral theologians will go with the answer that we can never justly take part in the launching, dropping or detonation of a nuclear weapon. There are some who disagree but in general most would say no. As far as maintenance on the device. Since that is necessary for the safety of the device it would be allowed.

What about maintenence that exists for the purpose of keeping the nuclear ready for use? Can such actions ever be allowed?

The issue of if one could ever be used is in the proportionate damage part of the just war criteria.

I can't see any way in which that criteria would allow for the use of strategic nuclear weapons. If every use of a weapon is gravely wrong, than the planning, building, maintenece (except as required to keep it as safe as possible), and defence of that weapon must also be gravely wrong, right?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

mark avery

Regular Member
May 11, 2011
219
12
✟7,921.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I think to defend others which would involve your sacrifice is awkward to answer.

To protect your own country, should not be a problem of these day`s.

I would say tho that if you are at war against another country, is a little cowardly, but if such a situation arises again then is it not just, that such individuals should be offered a passport for that country.

After the reformation, (who was a German, that changed religion) for the governments of the day and their ostensible knowledge of foreign politics it surely could not of been a big surprise that, that nation would rebel.

Germ men!

I have two German children, they are a wonderful country.......
 
Upvote 0

Michie

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 5, 2002
166,606
56,239
Woods
✟4,673,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
You would think if being called to serve in an unjust war by your goverment is a mortal sin then the Pope & Bishops would loudly voice to the faithful that warning. It is afterall the Church's obligation to make sure the faithful reach Heaven & do not fall into error.

I can't recall reading anything on the German or Italian side of Catholicism during WWII warning the faithful not to serve under Hitler or follow his commands.
 
Upvote 0

Davidnic

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2006
33,112
11,338
✟788,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
What about maintenence that exists for the purpose of keeping the nuclear ready for use? Can such actions ever be allowed?

That would depend on how someone would argue the deterrent nature of such weapons. Basically does keeping such weapons ready for use...even if the use is never intended, save lives. So in a way any maintenance can be justified.

I can't see any way in which that criteria would allow for the use of strategic nuclear weapons. If every use of a weapon is gravely wrong, than the planning, building, maintenece (except as required to keep it as safe as possible), and defence of that weapon must also be gravely wrong, right?

Depends again on the argument on the deterrent argument. Since they exist that reality must be faced. So does maintaining working and usable weapons prevent other who would use theirs, from using them. If so, since such weapons exist the maintenance of them and even the building may (not saying can or should) be argued as allowable.

Now the actual use...not aware of many arguments that allow that. I believe there is one Bishop who argues that the use of the Bomb in WWII was alright but he is in the minority.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Davidnic

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2006
33,112
11,338
✟788,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
I can't recall reading anything on the German or Italian side of Catholicism during WWII warning the faithful not to serve under Hitler or follow his commands.

Well there were other reasons for that, since not to do so would place their lives and their families in danger as well as other similar concerns. The Pope did speak out against the regimes to the extent he was able and was one of the strongest voices. But you are right that I do not think the participation in the national military was ever addressed.
 
Upvote 0