• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

What Is the Body of Christ?

tonychanyt

24/7 Christian
Oct 2, 2011
6,061
2,239
Toronto
Visit site
✟196,430.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What is the Body of Christ mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12?

This Body of Christ is a spiritual reality. We are born of the Paraclete. Jesus sent us the Paraclete to dwell in us. Every believer who has the Paraclete is a member of this Body of Christ. This is not a fleshly reality but a spiritual one. It is not the visible physical church. The Body of Christ is the true church existing in the spiritual realm but manifesting in the physical realm.

There is oneness and unity in this Body, 1 Corinthians 12:
12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. ...
27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it.

Christ is the head of this church, Colossians 1:
18a he is the head of the body, the church

This invisible church is the Body of Christ. Ephesians 1:
22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

Metaphorically, we play different parts in the body of Christ. Some are eyes; some are ears, nose, hands, feet, etc. (1 Corinthians 12:12-20).

Horizontally speaking, there is the Catholic Church. There is also the Reformed Church. Etc. Not every member of such visible churches belongs to the Body of Christ. Vertically speaking, everyone who has been born of the Spirit is connected to the organic Body of Christ as a spiritual reality in oneness and unity.
 
Last edited:

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Site Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
5,080
2,544
76
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟604,545.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Which Church on earth?

The one Jesus mentioned when He spoke of listening to the Church in Matthew 18:17


Matthew 18:17
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

This has to be a visible Church with visible and known authority. So which Church is this?
 
Upvote 0

tonychanyt

24/7 Christian
Oct 2, 2011
6,061
2,239
Toronto
Visit site
✟196,430.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The one Jesus mentioned when He spoke of listening to the Church in Matthew 18:17


Matthew 18:17
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

This has to be a visible Church with visible and known authority. So which Church is this?
There is the Catholic Church. There is also the Reformed Church. Etc. Not every member of such visible churches belongs to the Body of Christ.
 
Upvote 0

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Site Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
5,080
2,544
76
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟604,545.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
There is the Catholic Church. There is also the Reformed Church. Etc. Not every member of such visible churches belongs to the Body of Christ.

You gloss over my question. In the Bible, there was only ever ONE visible congregation (edah in Hebrew, ekklesia in Greek), not dozens. There was only one ever visible organization with only one headship over it. And the one Church can only teaching one set of truths, not many various and competing ones.

Now, where do you think it is and why?
 
Upvote 0

tonychanyt

24/7 Christian
Oct 2, 2011
6,061
2,239
Toronto
Visit site
✟196,430.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,818
29,484
Pacific Northwest
✟826,105.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Define Jesus' Mystical Body.

"For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--Jews or Greeks, slaves or free--and were made to drink of one Spirit
...
Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.
" - 1 Corinthians 12:12-13, 27

"The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not partaking in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a partaking in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread." - 1 Corinthians 10:16-17

"And He put all things under His feet and gave Him as head over all things to the Church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all." - Ephesians 1:22-23

"And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. And He is the head of the body, the Church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything He might be preeminent." - Colossians 1:17-18

Other than Scripture, what kind of answer do you want?

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

tonychanyt

24/7 Christian
Oct 2, 2011
6,061
2,239
Toronto
Visit site
✟196,430.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it." - 1 Corinthians 12:12-13, 27
Instead of the term Jesus' Mystical Body, why not use the term the Body of Christ? The latter is the wording of the Bible.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,818
29,484
Pacific Northwest
✟826,105.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Instead of the term Jesus' Mystical Body, why not use the term the Body of Christ? The latter is the wording of the Bible.

"That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet" - William Shakespeare

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

tonychanyt

24/7 Christian
Oct 2, 2011
6,061
2,239
Toronto
Visit site
✟196,430.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet" - William Shakespeare

-CryptoLutheran
Are you saying that the term Jesus' Mystical Body is as good as the term the Body of Christ?

The latter is the wording of the Bible. The former is not.
 
Upvote 0

Offline4Better.

Christian
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2023
11,384
7,707
✟668,648.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
What is the Body of Christ mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12?

This Body of Christ is a spiritual reality. We are born of the Paraclete. Jesus sent us the Paraclete to dwell in us. Every believer who has the Paraclete is a member of this Body of Christ. This is not a fleshly reality but a spiritual one. It is not the visible physical church. The Body of Christ is the true church existing in the spiritual realm but manifesting in the physical realm.

There is oneness and unity in this Body, 1 Corinthians 12:


Christ is the head of this church, Colossians 1:


This invisible church is the Body of Christ. Ephesians 1:


Metaphorically, we play different parts in the body of Christ. Some are eyes; some are ears, nose, hands, feet, etc. (1 Corinthians 12:12-20).

Horizontally speaking, there is the Catholic Church. There is also the Reformed Church. Etc. Not every member of such visible churches belongs to the Body of Christ. Vertically speaking, everyone who has been born of the Spirit is connected to the organic Body of Christ as a spiritual reality in oneness and unity.
The body of Christ can be multiple things, from his physical flesh, to the spirits of us Christians, to including his Church in fellowship, or communion at a Catholic church. I don't want to bring this up, but apparently there are rare instances where the bread can turn into physical flesh and blood, dubbed a Eucharistic miracle. Scientists have determined the Eucharistic miracle flesh and blood are from a man who has suffered immensely (as stated in the Bible, Jesus suffered on the cross), and have determined his blood type as type AB. So, in other words, Jesus' flesh is real and can be analyzed by scientists. His genome is impossible to sequence, as Jesus was born from immaculate conception. Pretty awesome, right? :)
 
  • Useful
Reactions: tonychanyt

GDL

Well-Known Member
Jul 25, 2020
4,247
1,255
SE
✟113,487.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Which Church on earth?

The one Jesus mentioned when He spoke of listening to the Church in Matthew 18:17
At the time it had to be at minimum a small gathering of Jesus' Jewish disciples and followers. The lesson came pursuant to a question from "the disciples." The 2 or three gathered in His name is 2-witness language of Torah and seems to be the minimum of an assembly unless we want to turn this whole lesson back to the main assemblies of the time - the Synagogue. So, where there are at minimum 2 or 3 Christians gathered in His name with the capability of judging matters, and Him being there in their midst, it would seem that this in context is an example of His Ekklesia in Matthew18. It seems pretty difficult to turn this section of Scripture into too much more.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: tonychanyt
Upvote 0

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Site Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
5,080
2,544
76
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟604,545.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
At the time it had to be at minimum a small gathering of Jesus' Jewish disciples and followers. The lesson came pursuant to a question from "the disciples." The 2 or three gathered in His name is 2-witness language of Torah and seems to be the minimum of an assembly unless we want to turn this whole lesson back to the main assemblies of the time - the Synagogue. So, where there are at minimum 2 or 3 Christians gathered in His name with the capability of judging matters, and Him being there in their midst, it would seem that this in context is an example of His Ekklesia in Matthew18. It seems pretty difficult to turn this section of Scripture into too much more.

That is because you do not understand the nature of The Covenant of God. We live in the New Covenant; therefore, we are people of the covenant and as such, live by the rules of the covenant.

In his book - THAT YOU MAY PROSPER (Dominion by Covenant) Ray Sutton shows that there are five working principles of a covenant relationship. If any of these five principles are missing, you do not have a covenant relationship. The principles are:

TRANSCENDENCE - The greater offers covenant to the lesser
HIERARCHY - Who is in charge here? (This in particular you are missing)
ETHICS - What are the rules of the relationship?
OATHS AND SANCTIONS - What happens when the ethics are violated.
SUCCESSION - The covenant passes down from generation to generation.

God established His covenant with national Israel. Israel alone was the "edah" (church, or congregation) of God. Within Israel there were many tribes, but none of them could claim special status as THE Church. The Church had central authority (priests and high priest) and a specific location for worship (Temple). It was not this free-for-all grab bag that is current Protestantism today where each assembly tries to claim they are the Church, or part of the Church.

In order to be in the Church, the congregation of God's people, you must be in subjection to the HIERARCHY. Covenant authority, or headship, is given to specific men in the covenant community. When Christ gave the Apostles His authority to forgive sins (John 20:23), He was transferring the authority of the Old Covenant and the covenant headship to those who would be the covenant headship of the New Covenant. It was understood that to be in the Church, one had to be in union with those who had this authority.

In the principle of SUCCESSION, authority is passed down from generation to generation. The covenant continues through the generations. We see this in both Old and New Covenants. It is also seen in the ancient Suzerainty Kings where the kingly line passes down and the kingdom continues. In order to be part of the Church, you must be under the authority of someone who is in the lineage of authority. This passing down of authority is called "Apostolic Succession" from the fact that we see the authority being passed from the Apostles to the next generation. (Hebrews 6:2; 1 Timothy 4:14) Paul laid hands on Timothy, conferring apostolic authority to him. Later on, Timothy would do the same to another man. These men were known as bishops in the Church. They are the HIERARCHY of the Church of Jesus Christ.

There is one congregation which has this apostolic succession in place and has remained faithful to that which the Apostles taught:

HOLY ORTHODOXY.

All others have either no connection to the Apostles, since they are not in Apostolic Succession and therefore have no authority, (Protestantism) or they have left the unity of the Church by schism from the Church's unity (Roman Catholicism).
 
Upvote 0

GDL

Well-Known Member
Jul 25, 2020
4,247
1,255
SE
✟113,487.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That is because you do not understand the nature of The Covenant of God.
Your opinion is noted.
We live in the New Covenant;
Agreed.
therefore, we are people of the covenant and as such, live by the rules of the covenant.
Agreed, but I'm not certain we agree on what you mean by "we."
In his book - THAT YOU MAY PROSPER (Dominion by Covenant) Ray Sutton shows that there are five working principles of a covenant relationship. If any of these five principles are missing, you do not have a covenant relationship. The principles are:
I've read the book and have studied the Suzerain Vassal treaties concepts from more than this book.
TRANSCENDENCE - The greater offers covenant to the lesser
HIERARCHY - Who is in charge here? (This in particular you are missing)
A covenant is a contract and can be made between 2 or more parties. God is the transcendent one we in covenant with.

We can see the hierarchy in the NC Scriptures, and it does not need to be turned into what some institutions have turned it into. You have to know by now that many of us simply reject your attempts to posit your hierarchical and true church concepts in attempts to justify your superiority and exclusivity in favor of reading and studying the word apart from your supposed authority.

BTW, if you're one of those who posits that only the Greek speaking orthodox are the authority of the Greek language, then I'd ask what you do with the ability of God's Spirit working with those well-trained in the language and whether or not all men are prpone to eisegesis and camp-based allegiances.
ETHICS - What are the rules of the relationship?
OATHS AND SANCTIONS - What happens when the ethics are violated.
SUCCESSION - The covenant passes down from generation to generation.

God established His covenant with national Israel. Israel alone was the "edah" (church, or congregation) of God. Within Israel there were many tribes, but none of them could claim special status as THE Church. The Church had central authority (priests and high priest) and a specific location for worship (Temple).
And then Christ: became the new Great High Priest (Hebrews), the Head of His Ekklesia (Ephesians), destroyed the entire OC structure and central location (Rev, et.al.), spoke of there no longer being a certain mountain at which to bow in obeisance to God (John4), instituted the universal priesthood of believers (1Pet; Rev); made us the Temple of God (1Cor; Eph), gave us the indwelling of His Spirit (John; Rom; 1Cor; Eph; 2Tim; James); as their Head reviewed His local congregations Himself apart from delegating other than having John write the reviews, had Timothy a young Pastor-Teacher commit teachings to other faithful men apart from Rome or Greek Orthodox or Anglican or ??? approval, etc., etc., etc.
It was not this free-for-all grab bag that is current Protestantism today where each assembly tries to claim they are the Church, or part of the Church.
Opinion again. No need to go into the Solas concepts.
In order to be in the Church, the congregation of God's people, you must be in subjection to the HIERARCHY. Covenant authority, or headship, is given to specific men in the covenant community. When Christ gave the Apostles His authority to forgive sins (John 20:23), He was transferring the authority of the Old Covenant and the covenant headship to those who would be the covenant headship of the New Covenant. It was understood that to be in the Church, one had to be in union with those who had this authority.
Hierarchy such as Christ, the Head?
In the principle of SUCCESSION, authority is passed down from generation to generation. The covenant continues through the generations. We see this in both Old and New Covenants. It is also seen in the ancient Suzerainty Kings where the kingly line passes down and the kingdom continues. In order to be part of the Church, you must be under the authority of someone who is in the lineage of authority. This passing down of authority is called "Apostolic Succession" from the fact that we see the authority being passed from the Apostles to the next generation. (Hebrews 6:2; 1 Timothy 4:14) Paul laid hands on Timothy, conferring apostolic authority to him. Later on, Timothy would do the same to another man. These men were known as bishops in the Church. They are the HIERARCHY of the Church of Jesus Christ.

There is one congregation which has this apostolic succession in place and has remained faithful to that which the Apostles taught:

HOLY ORTHODOXY.

All others have either no connection to the Apostles, since they are not in Apostolic Succession and therefore have no authority, (Protestantism) or they have left the unity of the Church by schism from the Church's unity (Roman Catholicism).
The concept and doctrinal position is understood.

It's odd but not unexpected how you've answered points about Matt18 in context and answered them with Apostolic Succession theory. When we're both in eternity you can try to explain it again.
 
Upvote 0

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Site Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
5,080
2,544
76
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟604,545.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Your opinion is noted.

Not my opinion. You should read Sutton's book on the Covenant of God. The Covenant of God is one of the most ignored and misunderstood truths of the Scriptures.
Agreed, but I'm not certain we agree on what you mean by "we."

Believers. We are people of the Covenant. We are New Covenant people.
I've read the book and have studied the Suzerain Vassal treaties concepts from more than this book.

You should have paid closer attention.

A covenant is a contract and can be made between 2 or more parties. God is the transcendent one we in covenant with.

Utterly wrong. This is the Calvinist/Reformed understanding of God's Covenant and His relationship to His people and it couldn't be more wrong. The Church is described as "the Bride of Christ." Is a marriage a contract or a covenant? Think carefully before you answer. Here, I'll do it for you:

"A biblical covenant is not a legal piece of paperwork. It is the relationship of two people who have given themselves without reserve to each other. The Calvinist definition in the Westminster Shorter Catechism is totally devoid of this intimacy. Listen to its language:

Q: WHAT IS A COVENANT?
A: AN AGREEMENT BETWEEN TWO OR MORE PERSONS.

That’s it. Barren. There is nothing about love between two persons. There is nothing which indicates the action of one giving oneself totally to the other. It is a legal contract and nothing more. And it is not a biblical covenant. Here is the biblical covenant:

Ezek. 16: 8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.

There is the definition of covenant, according to the Bible. The analogy we are given in Scripture is marriage – the beauty of two people giving themselves completely to one another in love. They make vows to one another. We seldom hear marriage described as “the covenant of marriage” anymore. But that is exactly what marriage is – a covenant." (The Dance of Isaiah | Pg. 18 | Kings of Luighne Publishing)

We can see the hierarchy in the NC Scriptures, and it does not need to be turned into what some institutions have turned it into. You have to know by now that many of us simply reject your attempts to posit your hierarchical and true church concepts in attempts to justify your superiority and exclusivity in favor of reading and studying the word apart from your supposed authority.

Again, it is not MY supposed authority. I am just speaking about what I have found through over 50 years of searching the Bible, finding out where I was wrong, and correcting my course. I'm just sorry it took so long to discover the things that I discovered. There are people I would have RUN from (and their churches) had I known what I know now and the damage that their false doctrines and heresies were going to cause to me and my family.

Hierarchy goes all the way back to when Adam was established as covenant head over Creation. He was intended to be a vassal king to the Great Suzerain King (God) and to rule over Creation. He failed. Christ, the Last Adam, did not. He picked up the ball (to use a phrase) and ran it to the end zone. Victory. Game over. God wins. Then Christ, before leaving, established His hierarchy among men by giving His authority to the 12 Apostles (John 20:23). Paul spoke of this hierarchical authority when his leadership was being challenged, and he warned those challenging him, asking them if they wanted him to come in a spirit of love or with the rod of correction?
BTW, if you're one of those who posits that only the Greek speaking orthodox are the authority of the Greek language, then I'd ask what you do with the ability of God's Spirit working with those well-trained in the language and whether or not all men are prone to eisegesis and camp-based allegiances.

No, I'm not. In fact, one has to say that some of the Greek speaking Orthodox have distanced themselves from the original Greek through their association with Western thinking. I also think that it is entirely possible that even the best of us can be influenced by the culture around us, such as how the Roman Catholic Church was influenced by the thinking of the Roman Empire in which they lived and because of that, developed a much different soteriological understanding than that of the East.


And then Christ: became the new Great High Priest (Hebrews), the Head of His Ekklesia (Ephesians), destroyed the entire OC structure and central location (Rev, et.al.), spoke of there no longer being a certain mountain at which to bow in obeisance to God (John4), instituted the universal priesthood of believers (1Pet; Rev); made us the Temple of God (1Cor; Eph), gave us the indwelling of His Spirit (John; Rom; 1Cor; Eph; 2Tim; James); as their Head reviewed His local congregations Himself apart from delegating other than having John write the reviews, had Timothy a young Pastor-Teacher commit teachings to other faithful men apart from Rome or Greek Orthodox or Anglican or ??? approval, etc., etc., etc.

The structure of the Old Covenant remains in the New Covenant. In the Old Covenant, God said that Israel was a "nation of priests" unto Him. (Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.) Does this universal priesthood mean that just any old Israelite could offer the sacrifices for sin? Or Yom Kippur? No. And in the same manner and structure, the universal priesthood of believers in the New Covenant does not mean that you are authorized to forgive sin or offer the Eucharist.




Opinion again. No need to go into the Solas concepts.

Not my opinion. Self-evident. Look around you., Protestantism is an ecclesial clown show. I swear, any thinking African pagan, upon seeing eight different missionaries with eight competing and different "Gospels," would have to think that Christianity is the religion of the mentally unstable.

Hierarchy such as Christ, the Head?

Indeed. Christ the Great Suzerain, the bishops of the Church, successors to the Apostles, as the Vassal Kings over His people.


It's odd but not unexpected how you've answered points about Matt18 in context and answered them with Apostolic Succession theory. When we're both in eternity you can try to explain it again.

I doubt that at that moment all this exegetical fluff is going to matter much to us, eh?
 
Upvote 0

GDL

Well-Known Member
Jul 25, 2020
4,247
1,255
SE
✟113,487.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Believers. We are people of the Covenant. We are New Covenant people.
Including Protestants and others?
You should have paid closer attention.
Now, now...
Utterly wrong. This is the Calvinist/Reformed understanding of God's Covenant and His relationship to His people and it couldn't be more wrong. The Church is described as "the Bride of Christ." Is a marriage a contract or a covenant? Think carefully before you answer. Here, I'll do it for you:

"A biblical covenant is not a legal piece of paperwork. It is the relationship of two people who have given themselves without reserve to each other. The Calvinist definition in the Westminster Shorter Catechism is totally devoid of this intimacy. Listen to its language:

Q: WHAT IS A COVENANT?
A: AN AGREEMENT BETWEEN TWO OR MORE PERSONS.

That’s it. Barren. There is nothing about love between two persons. There is nothing which indicates the action of one giving oneself totally to the other. It is a legal contract and nothing more. And it is not a biblical covenant. Here is the biblical covenant:

Ezek. 16: 8 Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.


There is the definition of covenant, according to the Bible. The analogy we are given in Scripture is marriage – the beauty of two people giving themselves completely to one another in love. They make vows to one another. We seldom hear marriage described as “the covenant of marriage” anymore. But that is exactly what marriage is – a covenant." (The Dance of Isaiah | Pg. 18 | Kings of Luighne Publishing)
Nice, but a bit selective using 1 verse from 318 occurrences in 298 verses (according to a quick search in English in the NKJ). I've found through many, many words studies through Scripture, that most words require analyzing several to many verses in context and then harmonizing the findings.

Not using Sutton to define?

One Catholic reference does not make a comprehensive study.
Again, it is not MY supposed authority. I am just speaking about what I have found through over 50 years of searching the Bible,
Sounds like appeal to what you have found is supposed authority. Yours, fine. Beyond that, not fine.

I was speaking of the institutional authority you agree with as "yours."
finding out where I was wrong, and correcting my course. I'm just sorry it took so long to discover the things that I discovered. There are people I would have RUN from (and their churches) had I known what I know now and the damage that their false doctrines and heresies were going to cause to me and my family.
I've also changed my views from what I was taught and from those I was ordained under.
Hierarchy goes all the way back to when Adam was established as covenant head over Creation. He was intended to be a vassal king to the Great Suzerain King (God) and to rule over Creation. He failed. Christ, the Last Adam, did not. He picked up the ball (to use a phrase) and ran it to the end zone. Victory. Game over. God wins. Then Christ, before leaving, established His hierarchy among men by giving His authority to the 12 Apostles (John 20:23). Paul spoke of this hierarchical authority when his leadership was being challenged, and he warned those challenging him, asking them if they wanted him to come in a spirit of love or with the rod of correction?
Not interested in institutionalized Apostolic Succession interpretations.
No, I'm not. In fact, one has to say that some of the Greek speaking Orthodox have distanced themselves from the original Greek through their association with Western thinking. I also think that it is entirely possible that even the best of us can be influenced by the culture around us, such as how the Roman Catholic Church was influenced by the thinking of the Roman Empire in which they lived and because of that, developed a much different soteriological understanding than that of the East.
Thanks for answering. Agree with "influences" comments. Eisegesis is quite the problem.
The structure of the Old Covenant remains in the New Covenant. In the Old Covenant, God said that Israel was a "nation of priests" unto Him. (Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.) Does this universal priesthood mean that just any old Israelite could offer the sacrifices for sin? Or Yom Kippur? No. And in the same manner and structure, the universal priesthood of believers in the New Covenant does not mean that you are authorized to forgive sin or offer the Eucharist.
Some more of the institutionalized interpretation here. For example, 1John1 explains how we receive forgiveness of sins. No denominational priesthood needed.
Not my opinion. Self-evident. Look around you., Protestantism is an ecclesial clown show. I swear, any thinking African pagan, upon seeing eight different missionaries with eight competing and different "Gospels," would have to think that Christianity is the religion of the mentally unstable.
Every denomination including the so-called non-denominational denomination thinks they're the one. The clown show would thus seem all inclusive. I trust the Head of His Ekklesia has things in hand.
Indeed. Christ the Great Suzerain, the bishops of the Church, successors to the Apostles, as the Vassal Kings over His people.
Glad you've found your place.
I doubt that at that moment all this exegetical fluff is going to matter much to us, eh?
The more time goes on, the less these debates & opinions tend to mean to me. I'm just not that impressed with any of us. My first question to my Greek professor on day one was something like, "It's been over 2,000 years, what's the problem?" "Eisegesis" was his answer. He should have just said "us."
 
Upvote 0

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Site Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
5,080
2,544
76
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟604,545.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Including Protestants and others?

If baptism replaces circumcision as the Ritual of Covenant Cutting, then, yes. Of course, the problem with this is that this takes away from the specialness that certain groups feel, so they strive to prove that Protestants have "invalid Sacraments" and nothing has happened. Of course, this then means that they must ignore the many miracles done outside their jurisdiction.



I've also changed my views from what I was taught and from those I was ordained under.

What is your ordination? What assembly or denomination?

Not interested in institutionalized Apostolic Succession interpretations.
Explain, please.
Thanks for answering. Agree with "influences" comments. Eisegesis is quite the problem.

Is it eisegesis or just allowing the thoughts and habits of the secular world to define our Christian faith. For instance, there is perhaps no more warlike people in the world (just my opinion) than Evangelical Protestants. They are the ones constantly clamoring for 'Murica to go "fight for the American way of life and Democracy" in some Third World crudhole. And many conservative Roman Catholics in this country are right behind them. Where do the people of the "Prince of Peace" get such ideas that God is somehow on the side of America against the whole rest of the world? I'll tell you exactly where . . . the propaganda and brainwashing of the military/industrial complex.

That's just one example of many.

Some more of the institutionalized interpretation here. For example, 1John1 explains how we receive forgiveness of sins. No denominational priesthood needed.

Not at all. Jesus told the Apostles in John 20:23 that they had the authority to forgive sins. You are dancing around that verse and the parallelisms between the Old and New Covenant structures by taking a verse out of context.

The more time goes on, the less these debates & opinions tend to mean to me. I'm just not that impressed with any of us. My first question to my Greek professor on day one was something like, "It's been over 2,000 years, what's the problem?" "Eisegesis" was his answer. He should have just said "us."

Agreed. I think of that verse that says that we "see in a mirror dimly." I swear, the "God" that some people think they see is really of little interest to me.
 
Upvote 0