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What is "The Bible," and Why?

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RhetorTheo

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Centuries ago, the Catholic Church (including the Orthodox) decided that certain writings are in accordance with Catholic teaching, and it called them scripture. The writings that were not in accordance with Catholic teaching were rejected as non-scripture. And the Catholic Church then said, essentially, that to the extent (and only to the extent) that the Catholic Church is the true church, then these books are the New Testament and "scripture."

If you are not Catholic, do you accept the books of the Catholic New Testament as scripture because the Catholic Church says so? If you accept those exact same books as scripture for another reason, what reason is that? If you don't accept some of the Catholic New Testament as scripture (eg, some reject Revelation), what books do you reject and why? And do you accept any books as scripture outside of the books of the Catholic New Testament (eg, some accept the Gospel of Thomas or A Course in Miracles)?

Thanks!
 

Gary777

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I accept the canon, but not because of the catholic church. The bible is a good thing, and they did a good thing canonizing the writings. But these writings were already at large accepted by the church and proven by the centuries of church history. But when weird "letters" and "gospels" popped up, and claimed to be true, even though they did not even have a history in the church - to protect the church from entering into error they made an official disclaimer against these false writings and confirmed what already belonged to scriptures.
Also the "catholic church" as you call it have gone trough some centuries and even millennium. Those bishops present at these councils, specially the first once, was not the same people that are cardinals today.
 
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RhetorTheo

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Correct me if I'm wrong, you are saying that (a) the books that made it into the NT were already accepted in their present form as canon from the beginning, and the books that were rejected were late, self-evidently false writings that were never widely accepted in the Church, so the canonization process was just a formality; and (b) the modern Catholic Church is substantially different from the one centuries ago?
 
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BBAS 64

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Good Day, RT

I do belive that if you go back and read:
Athanasius:

There are, then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for, as I have heard, it is handed down that this is the number of the letters among the Hebrews" (Festal Letter 39:4)

(39:3). He refers to his canon as "handed down, and accredited as Divine; to the end that any one who has fallen into error may condemn those who have led him astray" (39:3). It sounds like he was confident in his conclusions *without* any allegedly infallible ruling from a council of any sort, which is what would expect from Athanasius. Given his thoughts about councils and their lack of any meaning full authority.


You will see that Scripture was clearly difined in his time which is prior to any councils that you may wish to bestow some special relvance to this issue. Some councils reconized differnet cannons although I am unclear of the particulars it is clear from history this is in fact the case so what council do you adhere to? Athanasius alo listed out the NT cannon in some other documents of his, which do line up with the current NT we all use.

Peace to u,

BBAS
 
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RhetorTheo

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BBAS,

So Athanasius defines what is, and is not, scripture for P/R/E? And not the Catholic Church, to which he was a member, which you say "handed down" those scriptures to him? Why do P/R/E put such trust on Athanasius, but not the other bishops who were his contemporaries, or those who came before him or after him?

Also, does this reliance on the teachings of Athanasius apply only to OT scripture or to NT scripture as well? And do P/R/E follow other teachings by him, other than his views on scripture?

Thanks
 
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RhetorTheo

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After re-reading, I think I misunderstand. You say that there were different canons recognized in different parts of the Church, but also that the canon was closed by the time of Athanasius. Do you have faith in the rightness of the teachings of Athanasius, or do you cite him only because the canon he liked happens to line up with the one we all use?
 
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BBAS 64

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RT

WOW
 
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BBAS 64

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Good Day, RT

Your premise of your question is that a council provided you what you have faith in as Scripture so it is based on what you belive rightly or wrongly. My point in the role of Athansisius or any that proceded him or what ever council you draw your cannon from, is that some did not need a council to presicly teach a "cannon" or Scriptures in their day.

So from an historical stand point councils were not a nessary component for the early church to disern what was and what was not "Scripture"


Ambrose (c. 339-97): Follow the Scriptures, so that ye cannot err. Saint Ambrose of Milan, Exposition of the Holy Gospel according to Saint Luke, trans. Theodosia Tomkinson (Etna: Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies, 1998), Book II, §12, p. 38.
Latin Text: Sequere Scripturas, ut errare non possis. Expositio Evangelii secundum Lucam, 2.12, PL 15:1556.




Peace to u,

BBAS
Peace to u,

BBAS
 
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Bastoune

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What about the Book of Revelation... and the deuterocanonicals?


For more information about the process of canonization, check out Where We Got the Bible, by Henry G. Graham (published by Tan Books, Rockford, Illinois) or the detailed chronology provided on this web-site: http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ45.HTM


Really, do you want to tell us Athanasius didn't believe in the authority of any council?!?

I hate it when Protestants try to talk about the Church Fathers... without reading a word they wrote. But ignorance is bliss.

 
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Bastoune

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And besides, nevertheless, it is the Catholic Church who preserved the Scriptures and handed them down... why do you trust the Scriptures if you do not trust the Church who gave them to you? You're taking it on faith that the Bible is not corrupted... and that indeed, the true canon should not be one of the gnostic ones! After all, you weren't around in Jesus' time. Did you hear the words of the Lord or the Apostles yourself?

But men like Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, and others did!

Realize that none of the original texts of the OT and NT exist. Luckily, the Jews would carefully preserve the texts of the OT, but even between various copies, “variances” occurred. In the first two centuries when the NT was being copied, writing materials were reeds or quills, and sheets of papyrus, which were cut into strips and dried, then laid down vertically (side by side) with a horizontal layer placed on the top and the whole arrangement was gummed together and then “sand-papered” (actually, oyster shells). The sheets were about 10x5”, glued together into strips which could be rolled up. Sadly, these sheets did not last very well.

In AD 300, these sheets were put into a “book” form, that is, simply laid together with a cover to protect them. But these early collections seldom or never contained the whole Bible, since the canon of Scripture for the NT was still being determined. About this time also, the copies were made onto parchment rather than papyrus. (It wouldn’t be until about 800 that a real type of “paper” could be imported from Asia.)

Fewer than 20 papyrus rolls, and 4,000 parchment and paper copies made before the days of printing press, containing parts of the NT still exist. Nearly half of these were lectionaries used for liturgical purposes. All of these have many copyist and editorial mistakes. However, scholars say that only one-tenth of one percent of writing errors (either through copying, or from dictation/stenography) would make any change in the meaning.

The scarcity and incompleteness of manuscripts and stenographic transpositions, made it very hard to “look up” anything in the Bible. Until the 13th Century, the Bible was not even divided into chapters. The archbishop of Canterbury, Stephen Langton, did that for the Latin Vulgate version of the Bible. The division of the Scriptures into verses did not take place until after the invention of printing, and this was first attempted in the 16th century by the Dominican Order.

All copyists and the people who paid them were members of the Catholic Church. All the Popes and early scholarly authorities of the magisterium who determined what books were to be allowed into the Bible were… members of the Catholic Church.

Given the fact that EXCLUSIVELY the Catholic Church compiled, copied, protected, distributed, canonized the contents of the Bible we have today, then we can be sure that the Catholic Church would neither do nor teach anything contrary to them, for it would have been easier for the Church simply to have altered the books of the New Testament to suit her own “evil, corrupt agenda.” But you accept the Bible as the Word of God. Thus, wherever you differ from the Catholic Church, perhaps you will have to admit you really have no certainty that you are understanding and interpreting the Scriptures correctly. If your interpretations do not reflect those of the men who compiled, preserved, and canonized the Bible, I am willing to bet that it is not those Catholic Christians who were misguided, but you who are.

 
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BBAS 64

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Good Day, Bastoune

You hate come on you will get over it. Hate is not a good thing!

"Vainly then do they run about with the pretext that they have demanded Councils for the faith's sake; for divine Scripture is sufficient above all things; but if a Council be needed on the point, there are the proceedings of the Fathers, for the Nicene Bishops did not neglect this matter, but stated the doctrines so exactly, that persons reading their words honestly, cannot but be reminded by them of the religion towards Christ announced in divine Scripture" (De Synodis, 6)"


So Bastoune, why was he excomunicated, called before a council refused to appear, and had to take flight for his beliefs?

BBAS
 
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BBAS 64

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Good Day, Bastoune

Surely you are not debating here yet agian? You do know what a baseless
assertion is and the way they are looked upon in a dicussion such as this.

misguided ,ignorant, BBAS thinks Bastoune is lossing control of his emotions.

For His Glory Alone!

BBAS
 
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RhetorTheo

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BBAS,

Thanks for your response.

If all you are claiming is faith in Catholic bishops and Catholic tradition, rather than Catholic councils, then you haven't really addressed my main point. I understand why Catholics would put their faith in councils, and I understand why Catholics would put their faith in Catholic bishops like Athanasius. What I don't understand why a Protestant would unquestionably accept the teaching of Catholic bishops like Athanasius any more than a Protestant would accept the Catholic councils. In this sense, Catholic councils, Catholic bishops, Catholic popes, etc. are all the same thing: teaching from the Catholic Church.

My question is really: do Protestants rely upon the Catholic Church and its traditions to know what is scripture, or is there an outside source? How can you know the Bible is right without first acknowledging faith in the Catholic Church? Can you "just tell" what writings are scripture by looking at them and comparing them to non-scripture? Does the Holy Spirit tell you what is scripture? Does the OT canon make clear what writings would, and would not, later become the NT scriptures?

Thanks!
 
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Lotar

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I hate it when arrogant Romans assume others are ignorant.
 
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JVAC

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Surely you do realise that protestants never had a problem with Scripture, it was the misplacement of Scripture we had a problem with. The Church of Old was faithful and kept true to how things should be. After which, papal infallablility took over and we have several monstrous things such as purgatory, indulgences and the like.

Again I reiterate, our problem isn't with Scripture, the early church was quite faithful, and we trust that the copiers remained faithful in copying the ancient texts, we have no faith however, in Papal infallability or his indulgences!
 
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RhetorTheo

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Bastoune's link says this:

"Although indeed there was, roughly speaking, a broad consensus in the early Church as to what books were scriptural, there still existed enough divergence of opinion to reasonably cast doubt on the Protestant concepts of the Bible's self-authenticating nature, and the self-interpreting maxim of perspicuity."

Can you tell me what the doctrine of perspicuity means, and how the Bible is self-authenticating as to what books belong in it?
 
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Lotar

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First, the Roman Catholic Church is not the same as the catholic Church that originally set the NT cannon.

Sola scriptura does not exclude the use of tradition. All it says is that tradition must agree with scripture and that all required doctrine must have a scriptural basis.

Here's a little information about the whole deal.

http://www.lcms.org/ca/www/cyclopedia/
 
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RhetorTheo

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Okay, so do Protestants believe that the moral teachings of the early church fathers (the "Church of Old") can be relied upon for doctrine, such as the role of Mary and what constitutes scripture, but at some later date the Church became corrupted and it can no longer be relied upon? Among the teachings in the "Church of Old," how do you know which parts to believe when there is a conflict between the bishops? And how does this mesh with the doctrine of "sola scriptura"?
 
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JVAC

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As I understand it, the Church Council, assembled the Bible after the Council of Nicea. They assembled this canon with the Nicene Creed as guide of what shall be orthodox and what shall not. Now since all Protestants accept the Creed of Nicea, it is only natural that we also accept the cannon.
 
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