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What is the Bible and why led to it's creation?

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Jayray7352

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I read in another post something that I thought was an excellent point. That when the books of the bible were actually written, they were not done so with the intent of creating a compilation that we now call the bible. Is this the case?

If so, how can we be sure that we are 'getting' the entire message? Meaning, if it was not dictated by God that these books are compiled, and must include x,y,z...how do we know that there are not books or writings missing that would completely change the message that we see today?

And the other part is, what drove people to create this compilation?

Probably a vague question, I apologize...I am fairly new to the "study" of Christianity and can often come off as very scattered...but this is an interesting concept that I had never thought of.....

Thoughts?

Jayray
 

CShephard53

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I read in another post something that I thought was an excellent point. That when the books of the bible were actually written, they were not done so with the intent of creating a compilation that we now call the bible. Is this the case?

If so, how can we be sure that we are 'getting' the entire message? Meaning, if it was not dictated by God that these books are compiled, and must include x,y,z...how do we know that there are not books or writings missing that would completely change the message that we see today?

And the other part is, what drove people to create this compilation?

Probably a vague question, I apologize...I am fairly new to the "study" of Christianity and can often come off as very scattered...but this is an interesting concept that I had never thought of.....

Thoughts?

Jayray
If you look at the compilation we have, you will note that there are no inconsistent points within it, not in the original languages. I'm not going to be foolish enough to say that any English translation has no contradictions, only the original languages can be relied on for that, as the English just does not cut it. And if anyone would like to challenge that, let's.
 
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Jayray7352

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If you look at the compilation we have, you will note that there are no inconsistent points within it, not in the original languages. I'm not going to be foolish enough to say that any English translation has no contradictions, only the original languages can be relied on for that, as the English just does not cut it. And if anyone would like to challenge that, let's.
Jawsmetroid,

My question wasn't with the consistency, rather the potential lack of content, and what led to the compilation.... Did Jesus say at some point "write this all down" for the NT, or did God tell someone to "write it all down, this is how is happened" for the OT?
 
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CShephard53

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Jawsmetroid,

My question wasn't with the consistency, rather the potential lack of content, and what led to the compilation.... Did Jesus say at some point "write this all down" for the NT, or did God tell someone to "write it all down, this is how is happened" for the OT?
Your question has to do with the reliability of the Bible- why we can take what it says as fact. Just because God may not have stated 'write this down' (and in Revelation, there is such a statement, though context indicates that it's talking about Revelation) does not mean it was not God's will. And conversely, just because something was not included does not mean that God still wanted it in the Bible. This is about consistency, as in order to be a truthful and reliable, and thus factual compilation all of it has to be consistent internally, as well as externally. If you have questions about internal consistency or why the Bible isn't consistent with something you think should be included, let's talk about it rather than trying to answer the unanswerable 'why' questions. Is that clear enough reasoning, or do I need to add to it? I'd like to not be misunderstood here.
 
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Jayray7352

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Your question has to do with the reliability of the Bible- why we can take what it says as fact. Just because God may not have stated 'write this down' (and in Revelation, there is such a statement, though context indicates that it's talking about Revelation) does not mean it was not God's will. And conversely, just because something was not included does not mean that God still wanted it in the Bible. This is about consistency, as in order to be a truthful and reliable, and thus factual compilation all of it has to be consistent internally, as well as externally. If you have questions about internal consistency or why the Bible isn't consistent with something you think should be included, let's talk about it rather than trying to answer the unanswerable 'why' questions. Is that clear enough reasoning, or do I need to add to it? I'd like to not be misunderstood here.
JM,

I appreciate your explaination, I just don't see how it answers the questions. I am not trying to be argumentative or difficult here, just looking for answers, so bear with me...

I am not questioning the consistency or factuality of the Bible. I was simple asking 1-What led to the compliation? (You somewhat answered that with the reference to Revelations, but what about everything else?) and 2- Without knowing the answer to #1, how do we know that the compilation that we have today includes all that God wanted us to see? Am I making any sense, or just rambling here?....
 
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CShephard53

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JM,

I appreciate your explaination, I just don't see how it answers the questions. I am not trying to be argumentative or difficult here, just looking for answers, so bear with me...

I am not questioning the consistency or factuality of the Bible. I was simple asking 1-What led to the compliation? (You somewhat answered that with the reference to Revelations, but what about everything else?) and 2- Without knowing the answer to #1, how do we know that the compilation that we have today includes all that God wanted us to see? Am I making any sense, or just rambling here?....
You're ignoring what I said about consistency, and by the way I prefer a straight argument over all this dodging around. If the compilation is incomplete, other works will not contradict the compilation. In other words, just because the canon is closed does not mean that the canon is the only source of truth. If the compilation is incomplete, we are fully capable of adding to our knowledge by testing different works and theories against the compilation we have without adding to the compilation itself.
 
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Jayray7352

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You're ignoring what I said about consistency, and by the way I prefer a straight argument over all this dodging around. If the compilation is incomplete, other works will not contradict the compilation. In other words, just because the canon is closed does not mean that the canon is the only source of truth. If the compilation is incomplete, we are fully capable of adding to our knowledge by testing different works and theories against the compilation we have without adding to the compilation itself.

No worries JM, I am certainly not one to 'dodge' an argument...lol....but again, I am not questioning the consistency....at all, I am not sure where that came from...I will fully agree that based on what I know today, the internally, the bible is very consistent, but....

I am simply asking ( I don't know how to ask this differently, sorry): What led to the compilation?

Particularly the OT....the NT I can understand to some extent, as it was compiled by people who were within a few generations of Christ, so I understand how it was compiled, but not why...and the OT...where did that come from? Who told the authors to write it down? Am I making any sense?????

From what I have read, Moses is supposed to have authored Genesis....well, A) What made Moses write it down, and B) Who told him what to write?

I am perfectly happy with biblical references here, like I said, I am new to this...I am just trying to understand how the bible came to be......
 
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CShephard53

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No worries JM, I am certainly not one to 'dodge' an argument...lol....but again, I am not questioning the consistency....at all, I am not sure where that came from...I will fully agree that based on what I know today, the internally, the bible is very consistent, but....
Great.

I am simply asking ( I don't know how to ask this differently, sorry): What led to the compilation?
Followers of the same ideals and experiences deciding to do so. You figure out something that is of consequence to the rest of your life, you want to tell people and not keep it to yourself.

Particularly the OT....the NT I can understand to some extent, as it was compiled by people who were within a few generations of Christ, so I understand how it was compiled, but not why...and the OT...where did that come from? Who told the authors to write it down? Am I making any sense?????
Do you always have to be told something to do it? If you've got something that really matters to you and others, are you going to just let the idea float around or capture the moment?
From what I have read, Moses is supposed to have authored Genesis....well, A) What made Moses write it down, and B) Who told him what to write?
It really doesn't matter why something was written, its meaning matters more. Who told him? The people who came before him that had written or spoken their histories over the ages.
 
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rshanen

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God is not going to have any problem getting his word out. I have no doubt that the God that I believe in has got his word out to his people. I also have no doubt that there are people out there, throughout the ages and currently, who wish to pervert the word of God. Pray for guidance and as Gods word says, and experience indicates, God will send his people the Holy Spirit and he will teach us all things. God will direct his chosen people to the perfect word of God. No power in heaven or hell is going to prevent Almighty God from saving his people.
 
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beamishboy

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I read in another post something that I thought was an excellent point. That when the books of the bible were actually written, they were not done so with the intent of creating a compilation that we now call the bible. Is this the case?

If so, how can we be sure that we are 'getting' the entire message? Meaning, if it was not dictated by God that these books are compiled, and must include x,y,z...how do we know that there are not books or writings missing that would completely change the message that we see today?

And the other part is, what drove people to create this compilation?

Probably a vague question, I apologize...I am fairly new to the "study" of Christianity and can often come off as very scattered...but this is an interesting concept that I had never thought of.....

Thoughts?

Jayray

Hi,

I understand your question perfectly. I had the same problem at one stage. I mean, who decided that the Bible should contain 66 books (if we don't include the Apocrypha which is actually included in the Book of Common Prayer of my church although not really emphasized)?

This question is actually a serious one about the canonicity of the books of the Bible. Most Christians, I discovered, do not really understand how the books came to be accepted by the early church.

One of the reasons why this issue is not much explored is because there are some Christians who believe in the total inerrancy of the Bible. If the Bible is totally and inerrantly the Word of God, questions about how the collection of books came to be accepted would appear somewhat sacrilegious - it's a bit like questioning the Word of God. That accounts for some of the angry responses you are sure to encounter when you raise this question.

I had the added difficulty of not being taken seriously because of my age. People used to tell me that the time was not right for me to explore these issues and that I'd do well to just listen to my elders and betters.

So I decided one day to search Amazon and I ordered a few books on biblical canon. One is by Bruce Metzger and it's called The Canon of the New Testament - Its Origin, Development and Significance. The other is by FF Bruce and it's called The Canon of Scripture.

Both books are written by two of the greatest theologians of our time. Metzger was one of the translators of the RSV Bible. FF Bruce was well-known as an evangelical scholar.

It was after having read both books that I understood the Bible better now. At least for the New Testament books, the collection that we have are the best that are available. I think they are accurate enough in telling us largely the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles. The Bible is not meant to be a science book or a geography book or a history book. It's meant to point us to Jesus and nothing more.

It's perfectly all right if a person doesn't have questions about the canon but since you have such questions, I'd recommend that you read those two books. Just search Amazon.com and you're sure to find them.
 
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Peter

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The OP is correct. There was no proclomation to "write this all down." In fact, Christ gave Himself up for His Church (Eph. 5) not a book. Paul tells us that this same Church is the "pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Timothy 3:15). Elsewhere we find that this very Church is none other than the Body of Christ, and He is the True Head.

As to the book, Paul tells young Timothy that just having the OT books is enough to lead one to salvation (2 Timothy 3:15). He instructs the believers at Thessalonica to "hold fast to the traditions that were given to you by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess. 2:15).

The EOC, the Body through which the NT books that all 3 major expressions of Christianity hold to (RC, EOC and Protestant), holds that the Scriptures are given to us to "lead us to salvation", to quote St. Paul. However, you should not confuse the EOC view of salvation with the inovative view of Protestant Catholics. The PC view salvation is legal terms, like a contract. The EOC views salvation as a cooperation that is entirely Theo-centric.

The EOC has no view that the scriptures are the lone guidance for our lives, but rather the scriptures rightly understood and practiced within the life of the Body of Christ where He is the Head, the center of it's very life. (This point cannot be stressed enough. For without this one can come to the point where one believes the Church went into error. If that is true, then God is in error because He is linked to His body like your own head is linked to your body.)

The PC, in their revolt against Rome, wanted to take the book without the interpretation, and practice, that went with it. This is a danger that even Paul knew. He wrote to the Corinthian Christians with regards to the Lord's Supper and told them that "this is enough until I can come to you and give you further instruction." (I cor. 11:34) He knew that a mere letter was not enough. There needed to be a "demonstration lecture," as it were.

The scriptures are to be cherished, read and followed. However, to seperate them from the Body that gave them birth is run into something akin to the Sorcerers Apprentice.

Peace.

Peter
 
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Peter

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Further point...

The books we now have as the NT were chosen as a means of protecting them from spurious documents. In other words, they were set aside as being authentic.

An excellent book on this whole subject was written by Jaroslav Pelikan. It's entitled "Who's Bible Is It?" It tracks the development from the Hebrew scriptures to the Christian scriptures. He deals with the Septuagent -Masoratic issue as well.

Peter
 
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beamishboy

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Further point...

The books we now have as the NT were chosen as a means of protecting them from spurious documents. In other words, they were set aside as being authentic.

An excellent book on this whole subject was written by Jaroslav Pelikan. It's entitled "Who's Bible Is It?" It tracks the development from the Hebrew scriptures to the Christian scriptures. He deals with the Septuagent -Masoratic issue as well.

Peter

I suggest "The Canon of Scripture" by FF Bruce, a most renowned scholar and theologian. I've never heard of Jaroslav Pelikan but wikipedia says he's an Orthodox theologian. FF Bruce is more well-known and he's truly scholastic. It's freely available on amazon.com.
 
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Jayray7352

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I really appreciate all of the feedback and book references. But they all seem to reference, as far as I can tell, the canonization of the NT, I am more interested in the OT and how it came to be....meaning...how in the world was Genesis written? Was it written by Moses? If so, who told him what happened...I may be coming across as vague here, but it is really hard for me to picture someone sitting down and writing about the creation of the world without having been there....Is everything biblical built on the assumption that Moses knew something that nobody else knew? Am I making any sense???

:confused:
 
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darkshineslight

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I am more interested in the OT and how it came to be....meaning...how in the world was Genesis written? Was it written by Moses? If so, who told him what happened...I may be coming across as vague here, but it is really hard for me to picture someone sitting down and writing about the creation of the world without having been there....Is everything biblical built on the assumption that Moses knew something that nobody else knew? Am I making any sense???

I would highly recommend Who Wrote the Bible by Richard E. Friedman for starters.
 
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artybloke

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I really appreciate all of the feedback and book references. But they all seem to reference, as far as I can tell, the canonization of the NT, I am more interested in the OT and how it came to be....meaning...how in the world was Genesis written? Was it written by Moses? If so, who told him what happened...I may be coming across as vague here, but it is really hard for me to picture someone sitting down and writing about the creation of the world without having been there....Is everything biblical built on the assumption that Moses knew something that nobody else knew? Am I making any sense???

:confused:
I recommend a good course in Biblical criticism at a reputable university...

Sorry, there isn't a simple answer to any of these questions, and by the end of the course you'll probably have as many questions as you started with, just different ones.

Eg: According to many scholars, Genesis was written many centuries after Moses by at least two seperate writers, and put together by a scribe. It was not intended as a literal description, but includes epic poetry and legend.

These scholars, by the way, are not generally secularists, but practising Christians from various church traditions.
 
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CShephard53

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I recommend a good course in Biblical criticism at a reputable university...

Sorry, there isn't a simple answer to any of these questions, and by the end of the course you'll probably have as many questions as you started with, just different ones.

Eg: According to many scholars, Genesis was written many centuries after Moses by at least two seperate writers, and put together by a scribe. It was not intended as a literal description, but includes epic poetry and legend.

These scholars, by the way, are not generally secularists, but practising Christians from various church traditions.
Your 'many scholars' contradict what logic would tell us, too.
 
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BigNorsk

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Concerning the Old Testament, I would add to those references allready given another by Bruce Metzger, an Introduction to the Apocrypha

A lot of the problems with understanding canon seems to me to come down to those who have written motivated histories and a bit the Western Modern mindset.

You will for instance hear repeatedly how Luther rejected the books of the Apocrypha. How amazing, there they are right in his bible, and Lutheran Churches have continued to read from them right until modern times. Rejection is too strong a word. Not used for doctrine would be correct.

And Luther did not innovate a single thing concerning the Apocrypha in his bible. The name, came from Jerome in the Latin Vulgate. The Glossa ordinaria, the standard textbook used to teach all theologians the interpretation of the bible for hundreds of years by the Roman Catholic Church. It specifically spelled out that each one of those books was not scripture. You even have the Apocrypha set off in a separate section in a Latin translation made with the clear approval of Rome right about the time Luther published his New Testament. Luther was very much mainstream in his understanding of scripture at the time. That is if you did not turn to the uneducated who were often controlled by folk theology, superstitions, and a desire for earthly kingdoms.

The books of the Apocrypha were used for a long time as an Ecclesiatical canon. Matter of fact, if you look at the lists of the regional councils used to try and say the canon was set by the year 400, what exactly do they say? They say here is the list to use for reading in the church and other books shouldn't be read in the church. So it makes sense when you see what question they really answered that there is really no conflict with people like Bishop Athanasius and Jerome who held that they were not scripture really just a couple of years later.

Jerome, even when he capitulated and included them, did not remove or change the prefaces that they were not authoritative. Why would the Roman Catholic Church continue to print that for 1500 years if it was believed to be a serious error in conflict with the teachings of the Church. It become much easier to understand if you realize it wasn't in conflict. The Church taught that very thing in it's centers of learning. However, relatively few people were ever educated in those centers. Most priest and even Bishops had very little education. Many simply memorized the Mass. Though based on the complaints, many did not memorize the Mass well. Becoming a Bishop unfortunately was often a matter of buying it rather than earning it.

And so you have that the word scripture was being used in both a narrow sense, as those books with doctrinal authority, and in a wider sense as those books to be read in the churches.

Apocrypha was sometimes used for any book not authoritative, at other times for any book not to be read in the church.

You also see references to the Ecclesiatical canon. Those read in the church.

People approach like the questions are the same, but they were not treated the same by the church.

Come up to present, and outside of words they really aren't treated too differently. The Catholics call them the deuterocanonical books and while some try to use them for doctrine there isn't much of it. The Orthodox don't really get doctrine from them either.

The mainline Protestants all pretty much accept them for reading, indeed those that use a lectionary still often use one that includes Apocryphal readings. They were not rejected in the sense it is often used.

The groups that are shall we say almost anti-historical stand by themselves in their total rejection of them. That probably harkens more to the Bible societies that quite including them in the bibles they printed than anything else. Now they seem to think that bibles were always that way or it was some big decision by some group of leaders or something. If you ask, you can get a hundred different ideas.

There was a time when some of those groups objected to anything that was not the scripture itself in the bible. It would seem a strange arguement today when often people stand with a study bible full of nonscriptural writings in their hand. Commentary, maps, concordances, and so on are a standard part of most bibles today, all aids in understanding. The Apocryphal books with the knowledge they give to the history immediately preceeding Jesus' incarnation are a help too.

Marv
 
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