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Featured What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Mark Corbett, Jul 29, 2017.

  1. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I went to DMV to register my car, I had to wait forever but it finally ended.
     
  2. kjw47

    kjw47 New Member

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    The second death- are the resurrected ones who follow satan after he is loosed for a little while. Into the lake of fire= everlasting destruction. Being cut off from God forever is likened to a hell in the bible, much symbolism for the value of what each lost. As each new day dawns in Gods kingdom, they miss each day forever.It never stops.
    Gods justice scales= perfect balance, uncorruptable--So for 70 -90 years of unrepented sin, God could not punish one eternally= trillions x trillions x trillions, etc of never ending years of suffering.= impossible with Gods justice scales.
     
  3. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Like i've said with several of your posts in a row now, how did your post answer my post?
     
  4. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I was answering this, from your post above, "And, as shown from Scripture earlier ... in this thread, multiple ages can come to an end. . ." I said something lasted forever but I also said it ended. Compare that to your post quoted here.
     
  5. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    But Satan does not experience "everlasting destruction."
    Revelation 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
    Do the unrighteous experience "everlasting destruction" or are they conscious "cut off from God forever" and "As each new day dawns in Gods kingdom, they miss each day forever. It never stops?"


    Where in scripture does it say "God's justice scales = perfect balance, uncorruptable?"
     
  6. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

    And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

    ...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

    American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
    Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

    Does ages of the ages have an end? Christ's reign is "to the ages of the ages":

    And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15, YLT)

    But His reign is "until" He gives up the Kingdom to the Father:

    24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15)

    So Christ's reign "to the ages of the ages" is not "forever and ever". Therefore the phrase "to the ages of the ages" can be understood of a limited time period that comes to an end. So those in the lake of fire are not punished there "for ever and ever" (Rev.20:10).

    Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

    When Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15 above), this will lead to God being "All in all" (v.28). IOW everyone will be saved, as all will be "in Christ" (v.22).

    Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

    2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all is become new.

    Chapter Five

    Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

    This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

    Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

    Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

    This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
    and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
    and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

    -----------------------------


    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

    1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

    "...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

    "It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
     
  7. kjw47

    kjw47 New Member

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    Deuteronomy-32:4-- ALL of Gods ways are justice--He taught all that Justice- an eye for an eye= perfect balance.
    Only a sadist would torment one forever--God is love--those teachings for all about eternal suffering is symbolism.
     
  8. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    And you criticized me for copy/pasting a quote from E.W. Bullingers "Figures of Speech in the Bible." There are several pages of examples of Epizeuxis in this source. One of those is for ever and ever. In view of this evidence you must prove that for ever and ever is not Epizeuxis.
    Epizeuxis: or, Duplication The Repetition of the Same Word in the Same Sense.
    When the word is repeated in close and immediate succession, no other word or words coming between, it is called GEMINATIO , pronounced Gem-i-n ´-tio , which means a doubling, duplication, a re-doubling . It is also called ITERATIO ( It´-er- -ti-o ), iteration; CONDUPLICATIO ( con-d -pli-ca´-tio ), conduplication , or full doubling . When the words do not immediately succeed each other, but are separated by one or more intervening words, the figure is then called EPIZEUXIS , pronounced Ep´-i-zeux´-is epi ), upon , and (zeugnumi), to yoke , or join closely together . The intervening words thus form the yoke which joins the repeated words

    We may give the figure the English name of Duplication, Gemination, Iteration, or Repetition. It is a common and powerful way of emphasizing a particular word, by thus marking it and calling attention to it. In writing, one might accomplish this by putting the word in larger letters, or by underlining it two or three times. In speaking, it is easy to mark it by expressing it with increased emphasis or vehemence. How important for us to notice, in the Scriptures, the words and expressions which the Holy Spirit has thus marked and emphasized in order to impress us with their importance! pp. 200-201
    ...
    II. NOUNS AND PRONOUNS
    ( b ) In singular and genitive plural
    A noun is repeated in the genitive plural in order to express very emphatically the superlative degree which does not exist in Hebrew. See under Idiom . Thus this figure is a kind of Enallage ( q.v. ), or exchange, by which a noun in the genitive plural, is used instead of a superlative adjective. …
    Daniel 2:37 . Ezekiel 26:17 . A king of kings : i.e. , the most mighty king.
    Daniel 2:47 . God of gods : i.e. , the great, living, or true God. The most mighty God.
    Daniel 8:25 . The Prince of princes : i.e. , the most powerful Prince. Hosea 10:1

    1 Timothy 6:15 . The King of kings, and Lord of lords. Compare Revelation 17:14 and 19:16 .
    Revelation 1:6 . The ages of the ages , i.e. , to the remotest age, for ever and ever. pp. 301-302
    E.W. Bullinger Link: [Figures of Speech in the Bible]
     
  9. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Thank you for this unsupported opinion, attributing human reasoning to God. What sin did all, 100%, of the residents of Sodom and Gomorrah commit that merited eye for an eye punishment, men, women, children and infants?
    Isaiah 55:8-9
    (8) "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD.
    (9) "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
    Isa 55:11
    ...
    (11) so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
     
  10. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Bullinger is certainly entitled to his wrong opinion. However, since Scripture always trumps opinions & bulloni, in this case it also trumps the bulloni of Bullinger. Since Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15:25), His reign "into the ages of the ages" (Rev.11:15) cannot be for ever and ever. Nor can "ages of the ages" be for ever and ever, since it ends along with Christ's reign for the "ages of the ages".

    As for Bullinger's biased opinion, he gives no evidence for his viewpoint of "the ages of the ages"meaning "to the remotest age". Why did he not instead determine it means to the remotest "ages" (plural) since the word is in the plural? Why not "to the most excellent age" or ages, as he states re the "song of songs"? Or "to the greatest ages" as he states regarding "vanity of vanities"? Why blindly accept Bullinger's bald unsupported opinion? Is he a pope? Did he know Greek better than the early church universalists, such as the church father Origen, who spoke of an end of all ages, an end of age of the ages & an end of ages of the ages? If these periods of finite time have an end, then they are not, as Bullinger claims, for ever and ever.

    Furthermore, he gives no reason for how he magicly leaps from "to the remotest age" to "for ever and ever". If torment is "to" or "until" a certain age, then it ends before that age starts, so it is not for ever and ever. If torment is "into" (EIS) "the remotest age", that does not necessarily mean it lasts for the entire duration of that age, even if the age is endless. If torment is "into the ages of the ages", the torment makes entrance into those ages, not necessarily throughout the entire duration of them. Therefore the torment "into the ages of the ages" (e.g. Rev.20:10) is of an indefinite period of time. From other Scriptures it is clear that the torment ends.

    5 Scriptural evidences that ages of ages end:

    (1) The smoke going up forever and ever (literally, into the ages of the ages, Rev.19:3) is finite in duration. For the fire as the source of the smoke will cease burning after the city is "utterly burned" (Rev.18:8) & "found no more" (18:21). Also the old earth passes away (Rev.21:1), so how would the city continue to smoke "for ever and ever"?

    (2) The saints reign for "the ages of the ages" (Rev.22:5). But this is only until all rule & all authority are abolished (1 Cor.15:24). Consequently one interpretation of the phrase "forever and ever" in Rev.22:5 is that it is of finite duration.

    (3) Christ reigns "for the ages of the ages" (Rev.11:15). Since His reign is "until" He gives up the kingdom (1 Cor.15:25-26), His reign for "the ages of the ages" is temporary, as is "the ages of the ages" related to it.

    (4) Since Scripture teaches universal reconciliaton (e.g. Rev.5:13; Col.1:20), "the ages of the ages" referred to in Rev.20:10 re the torment of the devil cannot be endless. Likewise with other lesser sinners [e.g. humans] that may be punished in the lake of fire (cf. Rev.14:11 which uses a similar phrase, "ages of ages", without the definite article "the").

    (5) Comparing Rev.20:10 with Matthew 25:41, Jesus said the future of the devil & his angels is fire aionios (Mt.25:41, 46), mistranslated everlasting or "eternal fire" by pro ECT (eternal conscious torments) Bible versions (e.g. KJV). Fire aionios is also associated with the fire that burnt Sodom (Jude 7). That fire was not eternal, went out long ago, & its effects will last only until Sodom is restored (Ezek 16). Thus there is a Scriptural basis for taking the same phrase, fire aionios, which also occurs at Mt.25:41 & 18:8, as referring to a fire that is of finite duration. Likewise with "into eons of the eons" in Rev.20:10 which also refers to the devil's eonian (Mt.25:41) punishment associated with fire. So the devil's eon related punishment by fire in both Mt.25:41 & Rev.20:10 is finite. Therefore, the period "the eons of the eons" (Rev.20:10) must end. And surely since the devil's torments "into the ages of the ages" end, so do those related to human beings (cf. Rev.14:11; Mt.18:8; 25:41), for the same terminology is applied to them. Moreover, they are less sinful than Satan. If his punishment ends, then why not theirs also? Consequently the mistranslation "forever and ever" in Rev.20:10 & 14:11 refers to a finite period of time, with a beginning and an end.

    Summing up the argument:

    - eonian fire is finite (Jude 7)
    - eonian fire is the devil's punishment (Mt.25:41)
    - which is equal to his punishment in Rev.20:10
    - therefore his punishment is finite &
    - his torment for the eons of the eons is finite &
    - the eons of the eons themselves are finite

    continued at posts #130 & #131 this thread

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  11. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I clicked on your link to tents-r-us. FYI The first one "Chapter 5," has malware. I did a search at tents-r-us and found that Bullinger's work is quoted more than 40 times. So the bulloni is not Bullinger but your pet source.
    .....They cherry pick sources and quote sources, like Bullinger, as authoritative but evidently consider them bulloni when they contradict the biased opinions of whomever maintains that site. And since you quote and/or link to them in virtually every post you evidently share their biased opinion I think that about does it here. Sayonara.
     
  12. kjw47

    kjw47 New Member

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    The bible says they were wicked.
    Remember in the OT where it said--Ones child will pay for their parents sins( something like that)---It did not mean that the child must pay for the sins the parent commited--The parents taught the same sins to their children and false god worship. That is how they will have to pay.
    Its one of satans #1 tools--from generation to generation, from parent to child, false god worship and things off the table of demons handed down. Satan beat 99% living today--centuries ago.
     
  13. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Scripture is authoritative, not fallible men, like the church fathers whom you cherry pick from when it suits your agenda. Ditto for Bullinger.
     
  14. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Then why do you incessantly quote large chunks of writing from fallible, biased men at your pet website tents-r-us?
     
  15. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    The heterodox tapdance. How can children and infants be evil and deserve being burned alive? You quote an eye for an eye when it is convenient but have plenty of excuses when scripture does not fit your beliefs.
     
  16. kjw47

    kjw47 New Member

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    Few have found Jesus' real teachers. No follower of Jesus burned any children, Maybe pretenders did. First one must understand the alterations and errors in most translations to understand truth. Like these false reasonings of certain teachers.

    In the Hebrew language-- Elohim - NEVER plural as gods for the true God.
    I am that I am is error--- I will be what I will be is the correct translating of that Hebrew statement. It is not a name, Elohim is not a name--(YHWH,YHVH-Jehovah) is Gods personal name.

    They use I am that I am for Jesus saying I am and it is error. Jesus was not claiming to be God, He answered the Pharisees question, that is all. He lived before Abraham.
     
  17. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Interesting but incorrect and really not relevant to the post I was responding to.
    Jewish Encyclopedia-Names of God
    In appearance, Yhwh (יהוה) is the third person singular imperfect "kal" of the verb ( הוה ("to be"), meaning, therefore, "He is," or "He will be," or, perhaps, "He lives," the root idea of the word being, probably, "to blow," "to breathe," and hence, "to live." With this explanation agrees the meaning of the name given in Ex. iii. 14, where God is represented as speaking, and hence as using the first person—"I am" (אהיה, from ( היה, the later equivalent of the archaic stem ( הוה). The meaning would, therefore, be "He who is self-existing, self-sufficient," or, more concretely, "He who lives," the abstract conception of pure existence being foreign to Hebrew thought. There is no doubt that the idea of life was intimately connected with the name Yhwh from early times. He is the living God, as contrasted with the lifeless gods of the heathen, and He is the source and author of life (comp. I Kings xviii.; Isa. xli. 26-29, xliv. 6-20; Jer. x. 10, 14; Gen. ii. 7; etc.). So familiar is this conception of God to the Hebrew mind that it appears in the common formula of an oath, "hai Yhwh" ( חי־יהוה = "as Yhwh lives"; Ruth iii. 13; I Sam. xiv. 45; etc.).

    If the explanation of the form above given be the true one, the original pronunciation must have been Yahweh ((יהוה) or Yahaweh (יהוה). From this the contracted form Jah or Yah (יה ) is most readily explained, and also the forms Jeho or Yeho (יהו ), and Jo or Yo (יו contracted from יהו , which the word assumes in combination in the first part of compound proper names, and Yahu or Yah (יהו ) in the second part of such names. The fact may also be mentioned that in Samaritan poetry יהוה rimes with words similar in ending to Yahweh, and Theodoret ("Quæst. 15 in Exodum") states that the Samaritans pronounced the name Iαβέ. Epiphanius ascribes the same pronunciation to an early Christian sect. Clement of Alexandria, still more exactly, pronounces 'Iαουέ or 'Iαουαί, and Origen, 'Iα. Aquila wrote the name in archaic Hebrew letters. In the Jewish-Egyptian magic-papyri it appears as Ιαωουηε. At least as early as the third century B.C. the name seems to have been regarded by the Jews as a "nomen ineffabile," on the basis of a somewhat extreme interpretation of Ex. xx. 7 and Lev. xxiv. 11 (see Philo, "De Vita Mosis," iii. 519, 529). Written only in consonants, the true pronunciation was forgotten by them. The Septuagint, and after it the New Testament, invariably render κύριος ("the Lord").

    Jewish Encyclopedia online
     
  18. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't. I quote various sources to convince those who refuse to believe the Author of the Scriptures & trust more in Popes, Church Fathers, Bullingers & other bulloni as "authoritative".

    Say hello to Elvis for me.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  19. kjw47

    kjw47 New Member

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    The meaning of YHWH-YHVH-Jehovah is--causes to become.
    Every spot in the OT--Where-GOD or LORD all capitols, Gods personal name belongs--They had 0 right to remove it. Those that do not know the true God, think his name doesn't belong in the NT as well. They do not know Jesus very well either--He promised to keep making that name known-John 17:26) Nearly 6800 spots in the OT. Many spots quoted in the NT from the OT where the name belongs.
     
  20. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but you provided 0 evidence. I quoted from the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia and I think I will accept their evidence versus unsupported opinion from an anonymous poster online.
     
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