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Featured What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Mark Corbett, Jul 29, 2017.

  1. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Clearly your position was untenable. Also posts 130-131 were never answered.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2017
  2. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'd recommend this book i'm reading now on the subject:

    https://www.amazon.com/History-Testament-Lexicography-Studies-Biblical/dp/0820434809

    "Baldwin’s use of the lexicons as authoritative raises the question: Do the lexicons provide authoritative boundaries for the meaning and glosses of αὐθεντέω in the various contexts? Lee, Nida and Louw are agreed that the answer is ‘no’, not only for αὐθεντέω, but in general. Lee asserts, ‘The body of attestations accumulated in the lexicons has reached its greatest extent yet. But because of the ways it has been gathered there is an inherent unreliability’ (Lee, Lexicography, p. 124). Nida and Louw write: ‘We must not assume that the English glosses in a Greek–English lexicon can provide accurate information about the designative and associative meanings of a Greek term’ (Nida and Louw, Lexical Semantics, p. 59)"

    http://jgrchj.net/volume10/JGRChJ10-7_Westfall.pdf
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2017
  3. kjw47

    kjw47 New Member

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    This op is about the second death anyways.
     
  4. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Clearly your argument is untenable. I will not respond to any post which consists totally or primarily of copy/pastes from universalist websites as these posts did. I might be interested in your views which you have formed from your own personal reading of primary sources instead of incessant copy/pastes from secondary sources.
     
  5. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Easy to say. Another thing to prove. And how would you know? Did you even read them? Doubtful.

    Up to you. You are not consistent in doing that. And many of your posts are primarily quoting others.
     
  6. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    No I do not read them, I am not interested in nor will I waste my time reading copy/pasted canned arguments from uni websites of some supposed scholar who quotes bits and pieces of other scholars
    There is a difference which you do not seem to be aware of. Unlike you I do not copy/paste second hand canned arguments from websites. I quote primary sources such as lexicons, concordances, encyclopedias, grammars etc. For example, you quoted Ramelli, who quoted one sentence from Origen among other second hand quotes.
    .....You accepted that as authoritative, without question. But when I quote an entire paragraph from the same source you reject it out of hand "Without the original Greek/Latin words that opinion is nothing more than a guess." This is not the first time you have blown off something I quoted with this same argument. You can't legitimately use that argument unless you use it for everything you quote concerning the original languages.
     
  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You didn't even read them, yet said "Clearly your argument is untenable."

    Since you didn't even read the quotes, how would you know? Actually they were first hand quotes, i.e. directly from the sources quoted.



    Those sources often refer to other sources that they often do not quote, let alone quote in context, sources that are often in other &/or dead ancient languages, so in that sense they are far from being primary sources.
     
  8. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I read enough to know they were copy/pastes from second/third hand sources. Your objection is irrlevant
    Wrong! Here is an example from [post #130] This is not a quote from a primary source. It is part of an argument copy/pasted from a book by "pope" Ramelli. Only the blue is a primary source.

    "Cf. Apoc. 14:10–11, where the smoke of the tormented sinners rises eis aiônas aiônôn, in saecula saeculorum, which does not self-evidently mean absolutely forever; for Origen,
    as we shall see, this will be the time of the aiônes, before the apocatastasis which brings on the aïdiotês. Only the aïdiotês of the universal restoration will be truly forever." (Terms for Eternity: Aionios and Aidios in Classical and Christian Texts, Ilaria Ramelli and David Konstan, 2007, p.69)
    Prove that the sources I quote from quote other sources? And prove that they are not in context. And OBTW everything you quote from "pope" Ramelli often in "other &/or dead ancient languages, so in that sense they are far from being primary sources."
     
  9. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You didn't read enough to know that the majority of quotes from posts 130 & 131 were from first hand sources.
     
  10. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    The majority of the numbered statements were copy/pastes similar to the one I quoted. Most of it came from this website.
    Universalism and the Salvation of Satan
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2017
  11. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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  12. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I checked some of them and they came from the site I linked to. The site you link to here is not a primary source. It is no different than tents-r-us, somebody giving their opinion what the scriptures "really" mean, with the obligatory universalist slant.
     
  13. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    My meaning is the primary source of those opinions are from the site i gave you, not the one you referred to.
     
  14. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

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    I agree. That's a point that's hard to get across to many. Too many think they can simply pick up a lexicon, read the definition, and that settles the issue. It's not quite that simple.
     
  15. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your theory that aion & aionios are always defined as 'eternal' everywhere in the Scriptures and never defined as finite duration does not have the support of a single lexicon, Church Father, commentator or dictionary. You've been unable to give one source in the past 2000 years that agrees with your definition.


    This appears to contradict what you said above. And why repeat the word αἰώνιος twice?


    1 Timothy 1:17 Interlinear: and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory -- to the ages of the ages! Amen.

    Young's Literal Translation
    and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory -- to the ages of the ages! Amen. (1 Tim.1:17)

    The information that God is "King of the ages" is different info (not redundant info) from God being "immortal" & "invisible" & the "only wise God".

    Nothing in this verse says "the ages" referred to are endless. Nothing there says the phrase "to the ages of the ages" means endless. If you are doing something up "to" a certain time (e.g. ages of the ages"), that leaves it an open question whether or not you keep doing it afterwards.

    Additionally, if the ages have an end (1 Cor.10:11;Heb.9:26), then "King of the ages" cannot mean King for endless time.

    1."God exists today"
    2. Today "is finite"
    3. Therefore God exists during finite days [years, centuries, eras, epochs, milleniums, ancient times/olam, eons & ages]
    4. God is also immortal.
    5. Therefore God exists both during finite days & immortally.
    6. Both are true at the same time.

    Therefore when Scripture speaks of One Who is both immortal and King of the ages in the same sentence (1 Tim.1:17), ages can refer to finite periods of time. Whether of finite individual ages or finite corporate ages [of at least two ages].

    Thus your argument is refuted.



    Actually the opposite of a "moment" can be an "age" of a "finite period":

    Thesaurus results for MOMENT
    Gegenteil-von.com
    104 Moment Antonyms - Opposite of Moment - Page 3
    http://en.konjugator.com/aeon/

    Also a "moment" is usually a 'short' period of time.
    An "eon" or "age" can be a 'long' period of time.
    And 'long' is the opposite of 'short':

    http://www.myenglishpages.com/site_php_files/vocabulary-lesson-opposites2.php




    First, in this verse it says "aionios in the heavens". Scripture says the heavens which now are will pass away. So if these heavens are temporary, so also can aionios be temporary in 2 Cor.5:1.

    Secondly, that the house is not dissolved for an aionion (eonian) period of time does not necessarily mean that eonian means eternal in this verse. For example if something is not dissolved for the eon of the millennial age eon, that doesn't mean the millennial eon is eternal.



    Hebrews 7:24 Interlinear: and he, because of his remaining -- to the age, hath the priesthood not transient,

    "hath an unchangeable priesthood] Rather, “hath his priesthood unchangeable” (sempiternum, Vulg.) or perhaps “untransmissible;” “a priesthood that doth not pass to another,” as it is rendered in the margin of our Revised Version." Hebrews 7:24 Commentaries: but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.

    "This may be explained either as inviolable, or which does not pass over to another. Comp. Exodus 32:8; Sir. 23:18. Usage is in favor of the former meaning, but the other falls in better with the course of thought." Vincent @ Hebrews 7:24 Commentaries: but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.

    Will the office of priesthood be even needed or last forever? If not, then it will cease & aion in this verse cannot refer to an endless duration. After God becomes "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) priesthood may no longer serve any purpose. Likewise with kings (cf. 1 Tim.1:17 above).




    "The most ancient manuscripts omit the words, "for ever" ", i.e. they omit the Greek word aion:

    1 Peter 1:23 Commentaries: for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

    As do the NASB, NIV, ESV, ASV, DBY, ERV, & most at:

    1 Peter 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

    and also this:

    Greek-English Interlinear:
    Index of /interlinear/1_peter



    Actually God can be (and is) both immortal & existing "for a finite period at the same time". For God lives both "today" and is "immortal". Today is finite, so God will be for a finite period, namely "today". Additionally, God is "immortal". So when the finite time period "today" ends, He does not end, but lives on.

    That God will be living "today" and also at the same time be "immortal" are two distinct and different facts, not redundant facts telling us the same thing.

    Likewise the fact God is both aionian (eonian) & immortal in 1 Tim.6:16 do not require they be redundant or that eonian mean eternal or endless time.

    Aionios is related to time in the Scriptures, not eternity:

    in expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian (Titus 1:2)
    Who saves us and calls us with a holy calling, not in accord with our acts, but in accord with His own purpose and the grace which is given to us in Christ Jesus before times eonian,(2 Tim.1:9)
    Now to Him Who is able to establish you in accord with my evangel, and the heralding of Christ Jesus in accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, 26 yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures, according to the injunction of the eonian God being made known to all nations for faith-obedience (Rom.16:25-26)
    but we are speaking God's wisdom in a secret, wisdom which has been concealed, which God designates before - before the eons, for our glory (1 Cor.2:7)

    If time ends, the "times eonian" (Titus 1:2; 2 Tim.1:9; Rom.16:25) end & eonian ends with the beginning of eternity, then in Scripture eonian can never mean endless or everlasting.

    Similarly if the eons had a beginning (1 Cor.2:7, etc) & have an end (1 Cor.10:11; Heb.9:26).

    Young's Literal Translation (1 Tim.6:16)
    who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom is honour and might age-during! Amen.
    Concordant Literal Translation
    Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!
    Rotherham's Emphasized Version
    Who alone hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable,—Whom no man hath seen—nor can see: unto whom, be honour and might age-abiding. Amen.
    Emphatic Diaglott NT
    the only one having deathlessness, light dwelling in inaccessible, whom saw no one of men, nor to see is able; to whom honor and might age-lasting; so be it.
    Emphatic Diaglott (margin)
    ...to whom be Honor and Might aionian. Amen

    The emphatic diaglott: containing the original Greek text of what is commonly styled the New Testament, (according to the recension of Dr. J. J. Griesbach,) with an interlineary word for word English translation; a new emphatic version, based on the interlineary translation, on the renderings of eminent critics, and on the various readings of the Vatican manuscript, (no. 1209, in the Vatican library; together with illustrative and explanatory foot notes, and a copious selection of references; to the whole of which is added, a valuable alphabetical appendix. By Benjamin Wilson ...
    http://studybible.info/CLV/1 Timothy 6
    http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/1ti6.pdf

    Regarding Greek scholar Deissman:

    "Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "

    Chapter Nine

    The Greek text is on p.275ff. The English translation follows.

    "I adjure thee by the great God, the eternal and more than eternal and almighty, who is exalted above the exalted Gods." (p.277)

    "The tablet, as is shown not only by its place of origin (the Necropolis of Adrumetum belongs to the second and third centuries, A.D.; the part in which the tablet was found is fixed in the third), but also by the character of the lettering, is to be assigned to the third century,1 that is— to determine it by a date in the history of the Greek Bible — about the time of Origen." (p.279)

    https://ia800300.us.archive.org/4/items/biblestudiescon00deisuoft/biblestudiescon00deisuoft.pdf



    The "corruption" is not stated to be endless, so it does not necessarily follow that the life or eonian or life eonian must be endless.

    Be not decived, God is not to be sneered at, for whatsoever a man may be sowing, this shall he be reaping also, 8 for he who is sowing for his own flesh, from the flesh shall be reaping corruption, yet he who is sowing for the spirit, from the spirit shall be reaping life eonian. (Galatians 6:8; Concordant Literal Version).

    Origen, the Early Church Father, speaks a number of times of after aionios (eternal) life, thereby making it finite in relation to a coming age or ages, such as, e.g. the millennial kingdom eon age. Christ also speaks of aionios life in the age to come (Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30). And Daniel 12:2 refers to olam life followed in verse 3 by "olam and beyond", thereby making olam life in this context finite.



    John 10:28 is a repeat of the same verse addressed below at verse #15 on your list of 19 verses (actually only 18, & just 17 that have aion/ios in them).
    In John 6:58 death is not contrasted with aionios, but with live. Aionios is not the opposite of death.

    And the world is passing by, and its desire, yet he who is doing the will of God is remaining for the eon. (1 Jn.2:17, CLV)
    and the world doth pass away, and the desire of it, and he who is doing the will of God, he doth remain -- to the age. (YLT)

    For the eon or age here can certainly refer to a finite eon such as the millennial age eon kingdom of Christ, or also the eon of the second death (lake of fire) until death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26) & God becomes "all in all" (v.28), even all who were ever in Adam (v.22).



    Actually aion (and therefore aionios) can be the opposite of a "little while". See previous comments above re 2 Cor.4:17-18 & "moment".


    Those who "in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality" will be given "aionios life". Aionios (eonian) life is the special reward for those who believe. They get life in the eonian period called the 1000 years in Revelation, i.e. the millennial age eon. Unbelievers will not get eonian life in the age to come. As we see in 1 Tim.4:9-11, God is the Saviour of all men, but specially of them that believe. For believers get the special gift of grace of eonian life.

    Others will lose out on that & be punished. But even they shall be eventually saved (Rom.5:18-19; Rev.5:13; 1 Cor.15:22-28; etc).


    http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/1-33.htm
    http://studybible.info/ACVI/Luke
    http://studybible.info/IGNT/Luke

    Darby Bible Translation
    and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for the ages, and of his kingdom there shall not be an end.

    This is what it actually literally says:

    Luk 1:33 and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation. (CLV)

    It is about reigning over the house of Jacob and the time limit is "for the eons."

    Here is the full verse with context:

    Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and Son of the Most High shall He be called. And the Lord God shall be giving Him the throne of David,
    Luk 1:33 His father, and He shall reign over the house of Jacob for the eons. (here is the second half of the verse you allude to And of His kingdom there shall be no consummation."

    Christ eventually hands over the kingdom to His God and Father (1 Cor.15:24-28) and quits reigning (1 Cor.15:25). So His reign "for the eons" over the house of Jacob (Lk.1:33) is not forever, but finite. Therefore the phrase "for the eons" in Lk.1:33 is of finite duration & the translation "forever" is wrong, misleading & deceptive.




    If someone said to me "I have had no rest day or night", this could mean for a period of 24 hours. Not forever and ever.

    If someone said to me "I've had no rest day or night for ages", this could mean for a finite period of days, weeks or months. It doesn't mean forever. BTW the phrase 'forever and ever' in Rev.14:11 literally translates as "to ages of ages". So having no rest day or night for "ages" can mean for a short or long time of finite duration, not forever.

    Here is the literal translation from a Greek-English Interlinear:

    http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/14-11.htm

    Many other similar examples could be given with a literal translation.

    Scripture also speaks of night being "no more". So can "day and night" be forever?

    For 12 arguments re "ages of ages" ending, see posts 130 & 131 @

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...hilationsim-vs-eternal-torment.8019864/page-7

    This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

    Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

    This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

    12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

    All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).


    And I am giving them life eonian, and they should by no means be perishing for the eon, and no one shall be snatching them out of My hand. (Jn.10:28, CLV)

    This may refer to a future eon & not the disciples time in the first century A.D., since they did perish or die. The coming eon will include the millennium or 1000 years of Revelation 20. Even during that millennial age eon some will die (Isa.65:20), but Jesus says in Jn.10:28 that believers will not perish "for the eon". In the millennium:

    Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed. (Isa.65:20)

    Unbelievers will not enter the millennial age kingdom of Christ, but perish, according to verses in John above. It is noteworthy that it doesn't say they perish "without end" or "endlessly". They are raised at the great White Throne judgement of Revelation 20 & ultimately saved. For Jesus is the Lamb Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29) & their Saviour (Jn.4:42) Who will draw them to Himself (Jn.12:32).


    For neither is the Father judging anyone, but has given all judging to the Son, 23 that all may be honoring the Son, according as they are honoring the Father. He who is not honoring the Son is not honoring the Father Who sends Him." 24 Verily, verily, I am saying to you that he who is hearing My word and believing Him Who sends Me, has life eonian and is not coming into judging, but has proceeded out of death into life. (Jn.5:22-25, CLV)

    Here we see that all judging has been given to the Son for a positive end, that all may be honoring the Son.

    Believers have life eonian, as long as they don't lose their salvation. Then they would lose this gift of grace of eonian life and come into condemnation again.


    Actually in that verse death is not contrasted with aionios. Death is contrasted with its opposite life. Aionios life is the gift of God (Rom.6:23) to those who believe. Eventually all will receive life (verses 18-19 of the same chapter).



    None of these sources support your aionios theory. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent, whom you quote, opposes it, saying:

    "The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying
    expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting."

    "...The adjective aionios in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting."

    ".... Aionios means enduring through or pertaining to a period of time. Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods."

    "...Words which are habitually applied to things temporal or material can not carry in themselves the sense of endlessness."

    "...There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded."

    https://books.google.ca/books?id=oDVxDQAAQBAJ&pg=PT1952&lpg=PT1952&dq=.There+is+a+word+for+everlasting+if+that+idea+is+demanded&source=bl&ots=kbcwXyQq-_&sig=iFJYNZt2o2GZkw3pr9EGNOB8Oa8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwikjoe3jqvVAhXow1QKHZXWA4wQ6AEILDAB#v=onepage&q=.There is a word for everlasting if that idea is demanded&f=false

    https://www.hopefaithprayer.com/books/Word-Studies-in-the-New-Testament-Vol-3&4-Marvin-R-Vincent.pdf


    http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universalism-bible-derose.html

    http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

    http://tentmaker.org/blog1/universalism/

    http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/


    "The love of God is greater far
    Than tongue or pen can ever tell
    It goes beyond the highest star
    And reaches to the lowest hell"
     
  16. Der Alter

    Der Alter This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Repeating the same argument over and over while misrepresenting what I have been saying. Your assertion about not having "the support of a single lexicon, Church Father, commentator or dictionary" etc. is a logical fallacy, argument from silence. And once again the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. So instead of repeating the logical fallacy argument over and over, ad nauseum, perhaps you can find an affirmative argument among the "lexicon, Church Father, commentator or dictionary" etc. which directly addresses and disproves my argument?
    In all these versions 1 Tim 1:17 reads "The eternal king." KJV, NIrV, NIV, ISV, ASV, NET. Do you know why they are right and all those you quoted are wrong? In order for the verse to read "kings of the ages" the word βασιλει/basilei i.e. "king," which is in the dative case, would have to be in the genitive case. In the genitive case "king" is written βασιλεως/basileos here are a few of the vss. where "king" occurs in the gentive, Matt 2:9, 5:35, 14:9
    How does Paul "define" αἰώνιος?
    [20]Romans 1:20
    (20) For the invisible things of him [God v.19] from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    [21]Romans 16:26
    (26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God's power and Godhead as “aidios.” “Aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26 Paul refers to God as “aionios” to refer to God. Therefore Paul considers "aidios" and "aion" to be synonymous.
    Still irrelevant none of the verses say "during the ages of the ages?" The text says εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων "unto the eternity of the eternities" As Vincent said, in his commentary on 2 Cor 4:17, "An expression after the form of Hebrew superlatives, in which the emphatic word is twice repeated." Jewish writers emphasize a word by repeating it. This occurs in the second book of the Bible Genesis 2:17 where it is is translated "you shall surely die" in Hebrew מות תמות/muth t'muth, "dying you shall die."
    Wrong as usual.
    2 Corinthians 4:17 cannot be interpreted in isolation from vss. 18 and 5:1.

    Do you think that God is going to provide the righteous a "house," i.e. body, that is just floating around in the cosmos somewhere which He plans to destroy later on? Or will it be in the paradise described in Revelation?
    '
    Where does it say "the house will not be dissolved for an aionion (eonian) period of time?" You are still trying to argue that God is going to give the saints a new tabernacle which is going to be destroyed at some time. Is that really what you think 2 Cor 5:1 means?
    And you think this invalidates my argument how? It still refers to something that cannot, will not happen i.e. eternal.

    Hebrews 7:24
    (24) But this man, because he continueth ever, [αἰών] hath an unchangeable priesthood.

    Thank you for this unsupported assumption/presupposition. If God did not think it was important it would not be in the Bible.
    Let us say for the sake of argument that αἰών/aion does not occur in 1 Peter 2:23. αἰών/aion does occur in verse 25, referring to the incorruttible word of God. My argument still stands, unrefuted.
    1 Peter 1:23-25
    (23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
    ...
    (25) But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. [αἰών]And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.​

    Irrelevant. Show me a verse or two which states that.
    When you consider all 21 verses I posted it certainly does. God is immortal does Paul says His honor and power only last for a finite age?
     
  17. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Actually the vast majority of versions do say "heavens"(plural).

    Scripture says heaven & the heavens pass away. Do you think God had no abode before He created them?

    No, what or who gave you that strange idea?

    Nobody said both houses are destroyed.

    Already addressed in my post you replied to.


    Where did Paul say they are "interchangable"?

    Many words are applied to God. That doesn't make them all synonymous with each other.

    Context. Romans 1 is speaking about God's attributes. OTOH, Romans 16 refers to times long ago, eonian times past. Context, context, context.

    according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, (Rom.16:25b, NASB)
    but has now been brought fully to light, and by the command of the God of the Ages (Rom.16:26a, WEY)

    Romans 16:25-26 uses aionios twice. Do you suppose one time it means eternal & the other time it doesn't. Or that it consistently relates to an eon or eons, duration which is often very long, eras, epochs, ages.

    of a secret hushed in times eonian, 26 yet manifested now and through prophetic scriptures, according to the injunction of the eonian God (Rom.16:25b-26a, CLV)

    "Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "

    Chapter Nine

    The Greek text is on p.275ff. The English translation follows it.

    "I adjure thee by the great God, the eternal and more than eternal and almighty, who is exalted above the exalted Gods." (p.277)

    "The tablet, as is shown not only by its place of origin (the Necropolis of Adrumetum belongs to the second and third centuries, A.D.; the part in which the tablet was found is fixed in the third), but also by the character of the lettering, is to be assigned to the third century,1 that is— to determine it by a date in the history of the Greek Bible — about the time of Origen." (p.279)

    https://ia800300.us.archive.org/4/items/biblestudiescon00deisuoft/biblestudiescon00deisuoft.pdf

    Even your beloved JPS translation does not render olam as eternal when applied to God's goings, but as "of old" in Hab.3:6:

    "He standeth, and shaketh the earth, He beholdeth, and maketh the nations to tremble; And the everlasting mountains are dashed in pieces, The ancient[OLAM] hills do bow; His goings are as of old.[OLAM]" (Hab.3:6, JPS)

    The LXX has aionios[166] for olam there in Hab.3:6.




    Who is this quoting? You, yourself & you?

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    Universalism – The Truth Shall Make You Free

    Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
  18. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Nothing there proves the literal translation "to the age" is wrong:

    1 Peter 1:25 Interlinear: and the saying of the Lord doth remain -- to the age; and this is the saying that was proclaimed good news to you.

    OTOH, contrary to your opinion, aion is defined (as lexicons agree), as a finite duration, age, eon, epoch. And Scripture proves it:

    "Consider the N. T. use of aion. Does “eternity” make any sense in the following passages? To make my point unmistakable, I have translated the Greek word aion with the English word “eternity.”

    ¨ What will be the sign…of the end of the eternity (Mt. 24:3)?

    ¨ I am with you…to the end of the eternity (Mt. 28:20).

    ¨ The sons of this eternity are more shrewd (Lu. 16:8).

    ¨ The sons of this eternity marry (Lu. 20:34).

    ¨ Worthy to attain that eternity (Lu. 20:35).

    ¨ Since the eternity began (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21).

    ¨ Conformed to this eternity (Ro. 12:2).

    ¨ Mystery kept secret since the eternity began but now made manifest (Ro. 16:25-26).

    ¨ Where is the disputer of this eternity (1Co. 1:20)?

    ¨ Wisdom of this eternity, nor of the rulers of this eternity…ordained before the eternities…which none of the rulers of this eternity…(1Co. 2:6-8)

    ¨ Wise in this eternity (1Co. 3:18).

    ¨ Upon whom the ends of the eternities have come.
    (1Co. 10:11)

    ¨ God of this eternity has blinded (2Co. 4:4).

    ¨ Deliver us from this present evil eternity (Ga. 1:4).

    ¨ Not only in this eternity but also in that which is to come (Ep. 1:21).

    ¨ Walked according to the eternity of this world (Ep. 2:2).

    ¨ In the eternities to come (Ep. 2:7).

    ¨ From the beginnings of the eternities (Ep. 3:9).

    ¨ Hidden from eternities…but now…revealed (Col. 1:26).

    ¨ Loved this present eternity (2Ti. 4:10).

    ¨ Receive him for eternity (Ph.1:15). Does this mean forever or only until Onesimus dies?

    ¨ Powers of the eternity to come (He. 6:5).

    ¨ At the end of the eternities (He. 9:26).

    ¨ We understand the eternities have been prepared by a saying of God (He. 11:3).

    How can we say…

    ¨ “Before eternity” or “eternity began”? Eternity has no beginning (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21; 1Co. 2:7; Ep. 3:9).

    ¨ “Present eternity,” “eternity to come,” and “end of eternity?” Eternity transcends time. Only God is eternal (Mt. 24:3; 28:20; 1Co. 10:11; 2Ti. 4:10; He. 6:5; 9:26).

    ¨ “This eternity,” “that eternity,” or “eternities”? There is only one eternity (Lu. 16:8; 20:34-35; Ro. 12:2; 1Co. 1:20; 2:6-8; 3:18; 10:11; 2Co. 4:4; Ga. 1:4; Ep. 1:21; 2:2, 7; 3:9; Col. 1:26; 2Ti. 4:10; He. 11:3).

    ¨ “Eternal secret” if the secret is revealed? (Ro. 16:25-26; Col. 1:26). It is no longer a “secret” at that point."

    Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell






    All 21 have been refuted & you didn't address the vast majority of my refutations, while failing to refute those few you did address.

    As for your final sentence, that's both a strawman & a misrepresentation. Does God's honor & power not exist now & through the years, eras, ancient times, epochs, ages, millennium, eon & eons? Of course it does & that's what Scripture is saying. Scripture concerns itself far more with the times of human history & the present mortal life of humans than with some hazy incomprehensible endlessness or eternity.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2017
  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Six versions plus the Greek-English Interlinear here say you are wrong. None, zero, nada, zilch - say you are right.

    1 Timothy 1:17 Interlinear: and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory -- to the ages of the ages! Amen.

    ClementofA = 7

    Der Alter = 0

    What else is new. No surprises there. Same old usual bottom line.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    yet that One, because of His remaining for the eon, has an inviolate priesthood (Heb.7:24, CLV)

    Untransmissable is not necessarily eternal:

    "hath an unchangeable priesthood] Rather, “hath his priesthood unchangeable” (sempiternum, Vulg.) or perhaps “untransmissible;” “a priesthood that doth not pass to another,” as it is rendered in the margin of our Revised Version."

    Will the office of priesthood be even needed or last forever? If not, then it will cease & aion in this verse cannot refer to an endless duration. After God becomes "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) priesthood may no longer serve any purpose. Likewise with kings (cf. 1 Tim.1:17 above).

    My unrefuted opinion which, along with my other statements, have debunked your aion/ios olam theory in several different ways. And your second statement is a strawman; nobody said it wasn't important.
     
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