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What is some "Common Christian Wisdom" that you've learned isn't true?

Dave-W

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Almost all of my shirts are short sleeved also.

But my dad was ordained in the Wesleyan Methodist denom (left ministry before I was born) and he never owned a short sleeve shirt in his life. He NEVER wore only a tee shirt. And for most of his life worked in construction. On hot days he occasionally rolled his sleeves up to the mid-forearm.
NEVER NEVER NEVER up to the elbow.
He also never wore a wedding band.

He never gave a biblical reason (chapter and verse) for that; but said that the church needed to be more modest than the world. He thought he was on thin ice by wearing a wrist watch.
 
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Dave-W

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I am dismayed by how easily people get offended these days. When did humans become so thin skinned?
Being "offended" is a biblical term that has a certain description, which this use does not imply. It means to be tripped up into sinning.

For example, if someone comes to faith and has been an alcoholic; if I were to offer them a beer or glass of wine, and they then thought drinking was OK so they go out and get rip roaring drunk - I just offended them.

It is NOT about having your feelings or sensibilities hurt.
 
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Dave-W

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That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Actively seeking ways to be offended so that one can wear the badge of honor that is "persecution".
I suspect that is symptomatic of a personality disorder - a "persecution complex." IMO it is patently unbiblical.

Indeed, we are to grow up as believers, and that includes growing in love. 1 Cor 13 says that [mature] love "... endures all things." (v 7)
 
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Celticflower

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He also never wore a wedding band.

.
Actually that is not unheard of in construction work. Rings of any kind can get caught on stuff and cause injuries. My Dad was a carpenter and didn't wear a ring. My brother-in-law was a Marine helicopter mechanic and was told he either had to make cuts in his ring so it would break easily if it got caught or not wear it on the flight line. He opted to not wear it.
 
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Celticflower

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Being "offended" is a biblical term that has a certain description, which this use does not imply. It means to be tripped up into sinning.

For example, if someone comes to faith and has been an alcoholic; if I were to offer them a beer or glass of wine, and they then thought drinking was OK so they go out and get rip roaring drunk - I just offended them.

It is NOT about having your feelings or sensibilities hurt.

I can see being offended if the other person's action is intentionally disrespectful, but people now claim to be offended by everything - including stuff that makes no real impact on their lives (like single use coffee cups). And the things that should offend us and move us to action - violence, abuse of people and animals, loss of freedoms - tend to get swept under the carpet in favor of coffee cups, flags, bacon...
 
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Dave-W

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Actually that is not unheard of in construction work. Rings of any kind can get caught on stuff and cause injuries. My Dad was a carpenter and didn't wear a ring. My brother-in-law was a Marine helicopter mechanic and was told he either had to make cuts in his ring so it would break easily if it got caught or not wear it on the flight line. He opted to not wear it.
Not the issue. He also did not allow my mom to wear a ring until she started getting hit on constantly. He told her it was a sin to wear jewelry.
 
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Dave-W

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I can see being offended if the other person's action is intentionally disrespectful, but people now claim to be offended by everything - including stuff that makes no real impact on their lives (like single use coffee cups). And the things that should offend us and move us to action - violence, abuse of people and animals, loss of freedoms - tend to get swept under the carpet in favor of coffee cups, flags, bacon...
I do not call any of that being "offended" for the reasons I gave. It is merely upsetting their sensibilities.
 
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RomansFiveEight

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Wedding Rings only came back into 'vogue' in the 1940's as a way to hock diamonds. Throughout history weddings rings have waxed and waned. And indeed, throughout Christian history (and Judaism before that), there have been instances where rings have been encouraged and blessed, or banned and shunned.

Same with the short sleeves. It's all modesty and it's extremely influenced by culture. Where it gets into trouble is when we forget that culture actually decides what's modest and immodest; not the Bible; the Bible doesn't talk much about that stuff and if it did, it'd probably be fine with quite a bit of the stuff we don't like. After all, the middle east isn't exactly antarctica. Flowing, open garments, by both men and women, were pretty common.

At one time, for example, baggy was modest.. Baggy clothes were considered modest. Women did tend to keep theirselves covered. Christian women wore head coverings, as some Muslim women do today. (And there are Christian circles and Christian orders, such as certain Roman Catholic Nuns, where women still wear head coverings).

linenpendantsupertunic_burgundyblack.jpg


Baggy, plain, not flashy. The womans head is covered and no forearms or legs are shown. Though colored garments like these would be more 'formal' and not owned by most. The reason Clergy have traditionally worn black has little to do with the color, and more to do with the fact that clothing other than black was often pretty expensive, as dyes were expensive. Black clothing was rugged and cheap.

By later centuries, women wore tight clothing with plunging necklines and no headcoverings and exposed arms, but still wouldn't dare show a leg! Men didn't expose their arms in formal settings, but might in day to day. Later in the 16th and 17th century is where we get shapewear and corsets and others things to 'tighten things up'. Deeper necklines, shorter sleeves (and long sleeves as well).

ec73e6254388f940c1627c88156207b4.jpg


Over the centuries, whatever was fashionably modest, the church has historically endorsed as being the Biblical way of living. It's an ongoing battle that isn't likely to end soon, but it's a result of not asking "why". We simply accept that there are 'rules' for what's modest.

Culture is changing and, as such, the church is changing on how it views modesty; but it's always a few steps behind. One thing that makes me laugh is one-piece vs two-piece swimsuits. When my wife and I were dating her mother was adamant that she could only wear her favorite two piece swimming suit at home (they had a pool), and had to wear a one piece if she was, say, going to a water part. Both had about the same neckline and came to the same point on her legs. Not that I would ever dare say this to her mother; but the abdomen isn't the part people are looking at :) And yet, culturally, a one piece swimming suit is more 'modest', even though the only thing it covers that a two-piece doesn't is the belly.

Another fun one is gender identity for children. So much controversy today over "boys" vs "Girls" toys, which ISN'T a controversy your grandparents went through. Dig through Grandpas old pictures; I bet you'll find one of him in a dress. Yes! Children have historically, even up until the early-to-mid 1900's, been viewed in a feminine light. They were extensions of their mothers. There would come a time when a young man was expected to work with his hands and wear pants and a tie, but as an infant, toddler and small boy, dresses, playing with dolls, even having long hair with curls (I'm serious!) was perfectly acceptable for a boy.

If you don't believe me, take a gander as this portrait of a young Franklin D. Roosevelt, who would later grow up to be President of the USA;

It was not considered proper to give a baby a haircut. The first haircut, boy or girl, didn't happen until age 6 or 7. At that time, once the young man got his first haircut, he'd expect to be in pants. But all the way until that point; this was a total normal, socially acceptable way to dress and adorn a young boy:

Franklin-roosevelt.jpg


High heels, tights, and short skirts was once mens fashion. After all, accentuating the legs and making ones-self taller were considered masculine traits.

It's fascinating, truly fascinating, how so many of these things change and people pretend as if they've always been.

(Oh, and until the 1950's, if you were having a baby girl, powder blue was the preferred color. And every mother worth her salt had a lacey pink dress for her boys and pink walls in his bedroom. The two colors 'switched' around and after WWII).
 
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grandvizier1006

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Wedding Rings only came back into 'vogue' in the 1940's as a way to hock diamonds. Throughout history weddings rings have waxed and waned. And indeed, throughout Christian history (and Judaism before that), there have been instances where rings have been encouraged and blessed, or banned and shunned.

Same with the short sleeves. It's all modesty and it's extremely influenced by culture. Where it gets into trouble is when we forget that culture actually decides what's modest and immodest; not the Bible; the Bible doesn't talk much about that stuff and if it did, it'd probably be fine with quite a bit of the stuff we don't like. After all, the middle east isn't exactly antarctica. Flowing, open garments, by both men and women, were pretty common.

At one time, for example, baggy was modest.. Baggy clothes were considered modest. Women did tend to keep theirselves covered. Christian women wore head coverings, as some Muslim women do today. (And there are Christian circles and Christian orders, such as certain Roman Catholic Nuns, where women still wear head coverings).

linenpendantsupertunic_burgundyblack.jpg


Baggy, plain, not flashy. The womans head is covered and no forearms or legs are shown. Though colored garments like these would be more 'formal' and not owned by most. The reason Clergy have traditionally worn black has little to do with the color, and more to do with the fact that clothing other than black was often pretty expensive, as dyes were expensive. Black clothing was rugged and cheap.

By later centuries, women wore tight clothing with plunging necklines and no headcoverings and exposed arms, but still wouldn't dare show a leg! Men didn't expose their arms in formal settings, but might in day to day. Later in the 16th and 17th century is where we get shapewear and corsets and others things to 'tighten things up'. Deeper necklines, shorter sleeves (and long sleeves as well).

ec73e6254388f940c1627c88156207b4.jpg


Over the centuries, whatever was fashionably modest, the church has historically endorsed as being the Biblical way of living. It's an ongoing battle that isn't likely to end soon, but it's a result of not asking "why". We simply accept that there are 'rules' for what's modest.

Culture is changing and, as such, the church is changing on how it views modesty; but it's always a few steps behind. One thing that makes me laugh is one-piece vs two-piece swimsuits. When my wife and I were dating her mother was adamant that she could only wear her favorite two piece swimming suit at home (they had a pool), and had to wear a one piece if she was, say, going to a water part. Both had about the same neckline and came to the same point on her legs. Not that I would ever dare say this to her mother; but the abdomen isn't the part people are looking at :) And yet, culturally, a one piece swimming suit is more 'modest', even though the only thing it covers that a two-piece doesn't is the belly.

Another fun one is gender identity for children. So much controversy today over "boys" vs "Girls" toys, which ISN'T a controversy your grandparents went through. Dig through Grandpas old pictures; I bet you'll find one of him in a dress. Yes! Children have historically, even up until the early-to-mid 1900's, been viewed in a feminine light. They were extensions of their mothers. There would come a time when a young man was expected to work with his hands and wear pants and a tie, but as an infant, toddler and small boy, dresses, playing with dolls, even having long hair with curls (I'm serious!) was perfectly acceptable for a boy.

If you don't believe me, take a gander as this portrait of a young Franklin D. Roosevelt, who would later grow up to be President of the USA;

It was not considered proper to give a baby a haircut. The first haircut, boy or girl, didn't happen until age 6 or 7. At that time, once the young man got his first haircut, he'd expect to be in pants. But all the way until that point; this was a total normal, socially acceptable way to dress and adorn a young boy:

Franklin-roosevelt.jpg


High heels, tights, and short skirts was once mens fashion. After all, accentuating the legs and making ones-self taller were considered masculine traits.

It's fascinating, truly fascinating, how so many of these things change and people pretend as if they've always been.

(Oh, and until the 1950's, if you were having a baby girl, powder blue was the preferred color. And every mother worth her salt had a lacey pink dress for her boys and pink walls in his bedroom. The two colors 'switched' around and after WWII).
Ok, that picture is disturbing. I really hope that's photoshopped or it isn't Roosevelt. He could have acquired gender dysphoria from that experience.

Stuff like that just gives transsexuals fuel for that "gender is artificial" mantra...even though I would argue that it actually defeats the transgendered mindset;if you feel comfortable wearing "girl's" clothes and being a "girl" when the things that constitute "girl's" accessories were on boys, then it reinforces the idea that the desire to "change" your gender is really just artificial and unecessary. If there is no gender, then you don't have to change it; you're just a certain sort of man with different tastes and don't have to identify as "a woman" just because you realized that putting on makeup or a dress turns you on.

I can't believe that they had ZERO standards differentiating boys and girls like that, though. Dressing up boys to make them look like girls does not sound like something 19th century people would do. I do know about the blue/pink switch, but those are just colors.
 
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Celticflower

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Ok, that picture is disturbing. I really hope that's photoshopped or it isn't Roosevelt. He could have acquired gender dysphoria from that experience.

Stuff like that just gives transsexuals fuel for that "gender is artificial" mantra...even though I would argue that it actually defeats the transgendered mindset;if you feel comfortable wearing "girl's" clothes and being a "girl" when the things that constitute "girl's" accessories were on boys, then it reinforces the idea that the desire to "change" your gender is really just artificial and unecessary. If there is no gender, then you don't have to change it; you're just a certain sort of man with different tastes and don't have to identify as "a woman" just because you realized that putting on makeup or a dress turns you on.

I can't believe that they had ZERO standards differentiating boys and girls like that, though. Dressing up boys to make them look like girls does not sound like something 19th century people would do. I do know about the blue/pink switch, but those are just colors.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but that was the norm of the day. When my grandfather and his unexpected twin brother were born they were loaned clothing from another relative who was expecting, but wasn't due for a few months. That baby was a girl. They all wore the same clothing. Made it easy to pass clothing around for the first few years because there was no difference in the styles for boys and girls.
 
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grandvizier1006

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Sorry to burst your bubble, but that was the norm of the day. When my grandfather and his unexpected twin brother were born they were loaned clothing from another relative who was expecting, but wasn't due for a few months. That baby was a girl. They all wore the same clothing. Made it easy to pass clothing around for the first few years because there was no difference in the styles for boys and girls.
Wow...I mean, I know at one point my parents put me in some little baby dress, but I always assumed that was just for one picture, and they didn't put heels or makeup or anything, and I had just been born so I didn't have hair.
 
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RomansFiveEight

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Ok, that picture is disturbing. I really hope that's photoshopped or it isn't Roosevelt. He could have acquired gender dysphoria from that experience.

Stuff like that just gives transsexuals fuel for that "gender is artificial" mantra...even though I would argue that it actually defeats the transgendered mindset;if you feel comfortable wearing "girl's" clothes and being a "girl" when the things that constitute "girl's" accessories were on boys, then it reinforces the idea that the desire to "change" your gender is really just artificial and unecessary. If there is no gender, then you don't have to change it; you're just a certain sort of man with different tastes and don't have to identify as "a woman" just because you realized that putting on makeup or a dress turns you on.

I can't believe that they had ZERO standards differentiating boys and girls like that, though. Dressing up boys to make them look like girls does not sound like something 19th century people would do. I do know about the blue/pink switch, but those are just colors.

Here's where you're missing the point. They weren't dressing up "boys" to look like "girls". They were dressing up "children" to look like "children". That's the whole point. Society changes, and even how we view gender changes. In the late 1800's (and yes, that is a real picture of Roosevelt and was very common in the time) up through the 1930's, that was common dress for children. Children didn't get their haircut until 6 or 7. Sometimes it was left alone, sometimes curled (girl or boy). And dresses were easy, clean, easy to get on and off (children are messy) and easy to wash. White was the most common color because it could just be nuked with bleach. It's very 'practical'. You can certainly access a diaper much quicker under a dress. ALL children, boys or girls, wore the same clothing. You simply had 'childrens clothing'. The shoes, dresses, tights, etc,. were for boys or girls. They were dressed by their mothers and were expected to look that way in a proper society; and only started wearing gender-specific clothing, again, after their first haircut (about 6 or 7). Boys continued to wear tights for a couple more decades too. Surely you've seen the images of young boys wearing short slacks (to just below the knees) and tights with buckled on shoes? That was pretty common style for male adolescents.

There was a boom around WWII to try and create more 'gender identity' with children, but prior to that, it just wasn't the case. You had men, you had women, and you had children. Children obviously physically have gender but in many worldwide cultures, including the United States prior to WWII; children were basically 'gender neutral' and all wore the same stuff.

Again, Roosevelt isn't being 'dressed up like a girl'. He's being dressed up like a child.

And gender identity certainly is wrapped up in culture, but it's more complex than that. There are men who like to dress as women, but identify as men. And it's only because society says those are "womens clothes" that it matters. After all, British and French nobility were fond of white high-heels with red bows on them. And I'm talking about the men. Women wouldn't dare wear heels in that time period, being tall is a MASCULINE trait. If anything, women tried to wear shoes as thin as possible to appear as short and feminine as possible. Clothes, toys, shoes, etc., don't have a gender. It's just what society attributes. So when society says "Those are girls clothes", that's different than someone identifying as a different gender. And no, you can't "catch" gender dysphoria any more than you can 'catch' homosexuality. There is some research that extreme trauma (And I'm not talking about being made to wear a dress; I mean things like being raped as a child) can affect gender and sexual identity, in most cases it's unpredictable and random. Plenty of boys and girls dressed in the "correct" fashion who only play with the "correct" toys grow up to be gay or identify as the opposite gender. It just doesn't simply work like that. And it HAS been studied, again and again, and there's never been a 'link' to any certain behaviors making someone gay or transsexual (or transvestite; which is different. Cross-dressing, and identifying as the opposite gender, are entirely different. What's also fascinating is that when a woman wants to wear mens clothing she can do so and just be called a 'tomboy'. But it's an issue of gender identity for men who identify as men but prefer womens clothing. Again, society dictates a lot more than we give it credit for. And we become wrapped up in a belief in 'This is how things are' when really, it's just random things in society that make things one or another)

After all, how does clothing get a gender? Does it have chromosomes? Can anyone honestly give me a reason why a dress must be for girls and pants must be for boys? Society suggests there's one way to look; just like wearing a tie to the office or a polo to the golf course; but where does it come from?

The reality, honestly, is just about anywhere. And it changes a lot over time.
 
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RomansFiveEight

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As an add to that, there's controversy around toys too. Prior to WWII; most children under 7 played with the same toys. Usually dolls or small wooden trinkets. Again, children are children, not miniature men and women. Later, the toy industry started pushing toys with more 'gender' attached, and that really started to take off in the 60's-80's, including the institution of "boys" and "girls" toy aisles. Dolls changed from lifeless rag dolls to princesses and babies for girls, and action figures for boys. And the little trinkets turned into toy stoves for girls and toy guns for boys.

The controversy though, is a little ridiculous. If you need the STORE to tell you whether a toy is for boys or for girls, then it's probably for anyone. If you don't want your boy playing with barbie dolls, fine, don't by them. The fact that they are shelved next to the G.I. Joes doesn't change that.

Again, I'm still baffled by the idea that inanimate objects somehow have X and Y chromosomes.

Atari actually struggled with the videogame industry since they sold it in the electronics section. Games were available for both boys and girls and the whole family played. The gender split in videogames was about the same as the national average, i.e., about 50/50. Then the videogame industry crashed and didn't come back until Nintendo started selling their videogame system in the toy aisle; and because they had to choose, they put it in with the 'boys toys'. And to this day, marketing for videogames is aimed towards boys; even though the female gaming crowd is growing quickly. There's absolutely no reason why a videogame is masculine or feminine; it's just where Nintendo decided to stick their console all those years ago. Amazing how little decisions can shape major components of culture.
 
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grandvizier1006

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Here's where you're missing the point. They weren't dressing up "boys" to look like "girls". They were dressing up "children" to look like "children". That's the whole point. Society changes, and even how we view gender changes. In the late 1800's (and yes, that is a real picture of Roosevelt and was very common in the time) up through the 1930's, that was common dress for children. Children didn't get their haircut until 6 or 7. Sometimes it was left alone, sometimes curled (girl or boy). And dresses were easy, clean, easy to get on and off (children are messy) and easy to wash. White was the most common color because it could just be nuked with bleach. It's very 'practical'. You can certainly access a diaper much quicker under a dress. ALL children, boys or girls, wore the same clothing. You simply had 'childrens clothing'. The shoes, dresses, tights, etc,. were for boys or girls. They were dressed by their mothers and were expected to look that way in a proper society; and only started wearing gender-specific clothing, again, after their first haircut (about 6 or 7). Boys continued to wear tights for a couple more decades too. Surely you've seen the images of young boys wearing short slacks (to just below the knees) and tights with buckled on shoes? That was pretty common style for male adolescents.

There was a boom around WWII to try and create more 'gender identity' with children, but prior to that, it just wasn't the case. You had men, you had women, and you had children. Children obviously physically have gender but in many worldwide cultures, including the United States prior to WWII; children were basically 'gender neutral' and all wore the same stuff.

Again, Roosevelt isn't being 'dressed up like a girl'. He's being dressed up like a child.

And gender identity certainly is wrapped up in culture, but it's more complex than that. There are men who like to dress as women, but identify as men. And it's only because society says those are "womens clothes" that it matters. After all, British and French nobility were fond of white high-heels with red bows on them. And I'm talking about the men. Women wouldn't dare wear heels in that time period, being tall is a MASCULINE trait. If anything, women tried to wear shoes as thin as possible to appear as short and feminine as possible. Clothes, toys, shoes, etc., don't have a gender. It's just what society attributes. So when society says "Those are girls clothes", that's different than someone identifying as a different gender. And no, you can't "catch" gender dysphoria any more than you can 'catch' homosexuality. There is some research that extreme trauma (And I'm not talking about being made to wear a dress; I mean things like being raped as a child) can affect gender and sexual identity, in most cases it's unpredictable and random. Plenty of boys and girls dressed in the "correct" fashion who only play with the "correct" toys grow up to be gay or identify as the opposite gender. It just doesn't simply work like that. And it HAS been studied, again and again, and there's never been a 'link' to any certain behaviors making someone gay or transsexual (or transvestite; which is different. Cross-dressing, and identifying as the opposite gender, are entirely different. What's also fascinating is that when a woman wants to wear mens clothing she can do so and just be called a 'tomboy'. But it's an issue of gender identity for men who identify as men but prefer womens clothing. Again, society dictates a lot more than we give it credit for. And we become wrapped up in a belief in 'This is how things are' when really, it's just random things in society that make things one or another)

After all, how does clothing get a gender? Does it have chromosomes? Can anyone honestly give me a reason why a dress must be for girls and pants must be for boys? Society suggests there's one way to look; just like wearing a tie to the office or a polo to the golf course; but where does it come from?

The reality, honestly, is just about anywhere. And it changes a lot over time.
Sorry. I probably should have known that and generally agree with you. That was just a weird picture that really sent me off the rails.

I get worked up easily. I know you don't like people like that but I was raised in a PCA church in Mississippi. I don't understand CF at all.

Anyway, back to the thread's topic, which has nothing to do with gender insanity and identity politics.
 
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RomansFiveEight

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Sorry. I probably should have known that and generally agree with you. That was just a weird picture that really sent me off the rails.

I get worked up easily. I know you don't like people like that but I was raised in a PCA church in Mississippi. I don't understand CF at all.

Anyway, back to the thread's topic, which has nothing to do with gender insanity and identity politics.

I don't like folks getting offended easily, but I like everyone :)

Actually, you helped reiterate the point and message there. Societal pressure has made you believe that the image you saw was of a "boy" dressed as a "girl". When the reality of the context of the TIME is that it was a "child" dressed as a "child". And that's precisely how these extra-biblical moral rules get created. SOCIETY tells us something is the way it is, and we bolt God down into societies mold. Had you grown up in the mid to late 1800's, like the late President did, you wouldn't look at that picture and think he was dressed as a girl. Because it would be decades before society determined girl babies and boy babies dressed differently. It never works, but we've been trying for centuries. Similar to men being told that God wouldn't support them showing their forearms or wearing jewelry, because of societal pressure somewhere, at some time, suggesting that's the way it is.
 
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Dave-W

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Children have historically, even up until the early-to-mid 1900's, been viewed in a feminine light. They were extensions of their mothers. There would come a time when a young man was expected to work with his hands and wear pants and a tie, but as an infant, toddler and small boy, dresses, playing with dolls, even having long hair with curls (I'm serious!) was perfectly acceptable for a boy.

If you don't believe me, take a gander as this portrait of a young Franklin D. Roosevelt, who would later grow up to be President of the USA;
Yeah - that continued in the south for a generation or 2 after that pic was taken. My wife has a pic of her father that is quite similar.
 
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Dave-W

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And it HAS been studied, again and again, and there's never been a 'link' to any certain behaviors making someone gay or transsexual (or transvestite; which is different. Cross-dressing, and identifying as the opposite gender, are entirely different. What's also fascinating is that when a woman wants to wear mens clothing she can do so and just be called a 'tomboy'. But it's an issue of gender identity for men who identify as men but prefer womens clothing. Again, society dictates a lot more than we give it credit for. And we become wrapped up in a belief in 'This is how things are' when really, it's just random things in society that make things one or another)
In Deut 22.5 we are told that men are not to wear women's clothes and vice versa.

In that day BOTH men and women wore rectangular sheets of cloth that were wrapped around the body. Think of the Indian Sari clothing. In Numbers 15, Moses instructed the Israelites to put tassels on the four corners of that sheet. So what exactly was the difference? Certainly it was not anything like pants or skirts. It was all in HOW that sheet was wrapped around the body. "Gird up your loins" meant to take the back part of the wrap and pull it forward between the legs and tuck it into the front; thus allowing freedom of movement for the legs.
 
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RomansFiveEight

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In Deut 22.5 we are told that men are not to wear women's clothes and vice versa.

In that day BOTH men and women wore rectangular sheets of cloth that were wrapped around the body. Think of the Indian Sari clothing. In Numbers 15, Moses instructed the Israelites to put tassels on the four corners of that sheet. So what exactly was the difference? Certainly it was not anything like pants or skirts. It was all in HOW that sheet was wrapped around the body. "Gird up your loins" meant to take the back part of the wrap and pull it forward between the legs and tuck it into the front; thus allowing freedom of movement for the legs.

Sure; but we still have a 'root' for deciding what 'male' and 'female' clothing is. My point was, clothing doesn't have chromosomes. So over time, clothing might change; it could even reverse 'genders' (like high heels and mini skirts which began life as mens fashion). None of this makes anything 'wrong'. Society, in the present time, determines what's socially acceptable for males and for females. We must admit that ultimately, Deut. 22 is suggesting cultural obedience. If it isn't; then those quoting it need to be wearing sheets :) If they are going to wear modern clothing but only the "male" or "female" versions, fine. I wear "male" clothing too. But then they must admit that while they could point to scripture suggesting they should wear the male version of the clothing; it's society that dictates which articles of clothing are 'male'. And that's the point I'm trying to make. Nothing outside of living things has gender. Society, though, might assign certain objects to certain genders; and might also take that away or change it entirely.

200 years from now who knows what mens and womens fashion will be.
 
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