What is so wrong with this?

theseed

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servant4ever said:
How else can you become saved other than an altar call? I'm just curious as I've only seen people become Christians during the altar call.
I became a believer without an alter call. If we require an alter call for salvation, then we add on to what is found in the Gospel already.

John 3:16 says that whoevever believes shall be saved.

We have examples of people in The Bible being saved before birth--such as John the Baptist.
 
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Knight

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Allow me to add onto what has already been said......

Altar calls are a tradition. There is no Biblical mandate for an altar call. This is not necessarily a bad tradition as it does not contradict Scripture. However, there is no requirement for it.
 
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theseed

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Knight said:
Allow me to add onto what has already been said......

Altar calls are a tradition. There is no Biblical mandate for an altar call. This is not necessarily a bad tradition as it does not contradict Scripture. However, there is no requirement for it.
Yes, only the calling of the Holy Spirit is required. Just as Lazurus rose from the dead when Christ called, so too do we.
 
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servant4ever

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oh, I see, thanks. I guess I have never seen people become Christians without an altar call. :) I guess Calvinism does make sense with the answer of the question about "people who has never heard the gospel" stuff... I also have another question, I saw on another thread someone saying they are "7-point Calvinist". What is that? Do they just add to the TULIP? Thank you! :)

servant4ever
 
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Elderone

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I haven't read all the posts in this thread, what I have, shows good questions and very good answers. If I may offer a suggestion, it would be for servant4ever to pick up a copy of the "Westminster Confession Of Faith". In this book are the Westminster standards which are: The Westminster Confession of Faith, 33 chapters of various subjects many addressing the questions asked in this thread, the Larger Catechism and Shorter Catechism. All the answers are backed up with the Scripture proofs which prove them.

Calvanists and Reformed Presbyterians should always make sure there are at least three (3) Scripture proofs to back up answers or conclusions about the Bible. These three documents will provide a solid foundation to understanding the big questions of Christianity. The book is published by "Free Presbyterian Publications" and should be easily obtained.

In His service.
 
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Knight

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Elderone said:
I haven't read all the posts in this thread, what I have, shows good questions and very good answers. If I may offer a suggestion, it would be for servant4ever to pick up a copy of the "Westminster Confession Of Faith". In this book are the Westminster standards which are: The Westminster Confession of Faith, 33 chapters of various subjects many addressing the questions asked in this thread, the Larger Catechism and Shorter Catechism. All the answers are backed up with the Scripture proofs which prove them.

Calvanists and Reformed Presbyterians should always make sure there are at least three (3) Scripture proofs to back up answers or conclusions about the Bible. These three documents will provide a solid foundation to understanding the big questions of Christianity. The book is published by "Free Presbyterian Publications" and should be easily obtained.

In His service.
Good resources.

I concur....
 
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tigersnare

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servant4ever said:
How else can you become saved other than an altar call? I'm just curious as I've only seen people become Christians during the altar call.
Just a quick background, I was going to one of those huge Non-denominational Churches that had 3 services every sunday, and had an alter call at the end of each one.

Now I got to a PCA church, and they have not, and will not ever have an alter call.


I feel the exegetical teaching at the PCA church will convert more people than having a great band and kicking up the A/C so people will "feel the spirit" at the non-denom Church.

My problem with alter calls is this,
1. How many people have gone up for several alter calls only to leave frustrated and unchanged?
2. They never know which one "got them saved".
3. It seems to be more about you choosing God.
4. You have people who in reality hate God and the Gospel but think they are "saved" and feel justified by thier response to an alter call.
 
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servant4ever

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So, then, does a person become a Christian when they just say the prayer with another person? I'm kinda confused about how to become a Christian without making a public decision... Also, how do Calvinists explain the people who haven't heard the Gospel?

servant4ever
 
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Ryft

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servant4ever said:
So, then, does a person become a Christian when they just say the prayer with another person? I'm kinda confused about how to become a Christian without making a public decision.
There are a couple of problematic terms in your question — "a person" and "a Christian" — and these terms are problematic because you perceive and use these terms from the perspective of your beliefs, while we perceive and use them from the Reformed perspective... and they are probably not the same.

First of all, I would assert that "a Christian" is not just some kind of trademark someone gives lip service to, it's not a status symbol, it's not a label someone wears, it's not a once-a-week social club. It is literally a core-shattering resurrection, a way of life from a previous way of death. It changes the very fabric of your whole entire being and becomes not what you are but who you are. Without the Spirit of God within us, we are not just sick, we are not just handicapped — we are dead. What I mean is this: answering an altar call doesn't make someone a Christian, even if someone is going through 'the sinner's prayer' with that person, because it is entirely possible for someone who answers an altar call to become an atheist two years later and die an atheist (I've seen it happen). What makes someone a Christian is being enabled and drawn by the Father, effectually called by the Spirit. Regarding Romans 8:9, Spurgeon said it indicates "that the absence of the Spirit is fatal, for the Divine signature is not at the bottom of the document. But if the Spirit of God is there, then all is right, for the Lord never puts His seal to anything which is not sound and true" ("The Sealing of the Spirit," sermon #1284; emphasis mine). Salvation is not wrought by any effort of ours, and without the regenerating work of the Spirit, we are incapable of even desiring it. If the Spirit of Christ is not in you and you are not in Christ, then you are not a Christian. And Spurgeon just there concurs with John where he said,
"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us" (1 John 2:19; emphasis mine)​
and Paul as well when he said,
"And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born, and had not done anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose according to His choice might stand, not because of works, but because of Him who calls . . . So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy" (Rom 9:10-16; emphasis mine).​
and Jesus when he said,
"'Yet there are some of you who do not believe.' For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him'" (John 6:64-65; notice that if we have to be enabled [rendered capable], it must mean that we are first incapable; e.g. John 8:43, Romans 8:5-8, 1 Corinthians 2:12-14, etc.).​

Secondly, I would assert that the only people that can become a Christian are the elect. So the question is not really about how "a person" becomes "a Christian" but, rather, how the elect are effectually called. And the answer becomes intuitive: the Holy Spirit. It is not by any work of man — not even the work of 'choice'. To put it as a formula, the only person that chooses God is the person that God chose first (election). Salvation is God's work, not ours. And like someone else here said, I am so very glad that my salvation is not in my hands but rather in the hands of our sovereign almighty God.

servant4ever said:
Also, how do Calvinists explain the people who haven't heard the Gospel?
What is there to explain about such people? Is your point something like, "Someone who has never heard the gospel doesn't have that chance to choose salvation"? The Calvinist would respond with a couple of notes. First of all, salvation does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy (Romans 9:16) and, given the sovereignty and omniscience of our Lord God, it likewise has nothing to do with chance. And secondly, the only person that chooses God is the person that God chose first (election) and, "All that the Father gives me will come to me" (John 6:37). All of God's elect will hear the gospel, be effectually called, be regenerated, be saved — "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day" (John 6:39; see also Romans 10:13-17).

I hope I didn't overwhelm you with too much.
 
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tigersnare

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theseed said:
There is nothing wrong with alter calls, its the lack of discipleship that is a problem.

God does not stop anyone from comming to him--why should we?

It was my opinon from my own subjective experiences. And I am not saying alter calls are all together a bad thing, but as you have pointed out there are problems with it.

And to answer your question even though it looks to be rhetorical, I'm not sure if everyone going up to alter calls are going to God. In my experience it's been some going to God, some going for friends, some going for pressure, some going for appreances, some going for a emotional high, ect.
And I don't think alter calls are the only way to "come to him".
 
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theseed

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I'm not sure if everyone going up to alter calls are going to God. In my experience it's been some going to God, some going for friends, some going for pressure, some going for appreances, some going for a emotional high, ect.
And I don't think alter calls are the only way to "come to him".

Well, duh! People have been doing that kind of things for thousands of years. Do you think everybody that goes to church, goes there for Jesus?

Are all those that are called Israel, Israel?

They say that half the people in churches have no saving relationship with Jesus Christ.
 
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tigersnare

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theseed said:


Well, duh! People have been doing that kind of things for thousands of years. Do you think everybody that goes to church, goes there for Jesus?

Are all those that are called Israel, Israel?

They say that half the people in churches have no saving relationship with Jesus Christ.

Is there any particular reason why you feel the need to respond to me like this?

I leave the boards for month, come back and realize I'm treated better on secular Car Audio forums. I don't get this....

Funny to think that some of this "attitude" towards me started when I brought up the troubling thought that I might be wrong and the Catholic Church might be right. Which to me was no big deal, I've never read church history so I have no ground to stand on in defense of either as for as apologetics goes. But then again it doens't help when you have a moderator calling *BS* after several of your posts in here. Still don't get that one... :sigh:
 
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theseed

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I'm sorry. I did not mean to come off so rude. I'm just surprised that you are so concerned with hypocrites and crowd followers.

Shall we stop preaching the Gospel to prevent fakers from comming up? I think not!

The wheat and the tares have always cropped up together. It is not our job to separate them, but God's. God will test every man's work to see if it holds (1 Cor. 3).
 
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tigersnare

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theseed said:
I'm sorry. I did not mean to come off so rude.
Thank you

theseed said:
I'm just surprised that you are so concerned with hypocrites and crowd followers.
I am concerned but for the reason of they might believe they are "saved" because they went up for an alter call, and have become complacent with that, and believe that to be thier justification. It's a concern for their souls, as I was once of those kids running around thinking I was "saved" because I said the sinners prayer once at a youth conference. In reality I hadn't even heard the gospel, respoded to it, and actually hated God.

theseed said:
Shall we stop preaching the Gospel to prevent fakers from comming up? I think not!
This was never implied by me or my post. I think we should preach the Gospel, the good, the bad, and the ugly. I think what alot of churches present out there is water downed, feel good, non offensive, just need a little Jesus........not entirety of the Gospel. I'm thankful for faithful teahers and preachers who carry the torch in season and out of season.
The wheat and the tares have always cropped up together. It is not our job to separate them, but God's. God will test every man's work to see if it holds (1 Cor. 3). [/QUOTE]
 
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