What is so wrong with this?

[servant4ever]

Hello everybody. I first want to say I am not trying to start an argument and I'm just trying to see what some brothers and sisters in Christ believe about this. Second, I want to apologize to you Calvinists for being so rude yesterday on another thread.

Anyways, as some of you know, I am an Open Theist. I am just wondering, what do the Calvinists really see that bad about Open Theism? And please be specific, don't generalize your answer by just saying it's a heresy, please say why you think it is.

Again, I am not trying to start an argument, I want to see a constructive way of seeing why Calvinists do not see Open Theism as a possibility to describe the God of all Creation. I will not post replies to your posts, I will only be looking at your replies so we won't get into any arguments...

God bless!

servant4ever

 

[rmwilliamsll]

the best Reformed response to OT i am aware of is John Frame's _No Other God_
http://www.discerningreader.com/nootgodjohfr.html

the best online response, again that i am aware of, is a pastoral letter on OT at:
http://www.epc.org/about-epc/pastoral-letters/open-theism.html

the bottom line is that it is heresy and no orthodox or conservative Reformed Christian is going to propose it.

 

[Bulldog]

Anyways, as some of you know, I am an Open Theist. I am just wondering, what do the Calvinists really see that bad about Open Theism?

I beleve it to be heresy because it limits God. It gives man soveirgnty, makes God just be a good guesser, and makes it so God has to go along with the will of man. It is the complete antisthesis of what a soverign God is.

 

[ClementofRome]

Process theology has been properly and biblically refuted by Royce Gruenler in his book "The Inexhaustable God: Biblical Faith and the Challenge of Process Theism" (Baker, 1983).

Go have a look-see.

Blessings

 

[servant4ever]

Hey, thank you for your replies! Not trying to argue here, but I have another question here, do Calvinists believe humans have free will? If so, how is that affected by God's election?

servant4ever

 

[Apollo Rhetor]

What is an 'open theist'?

I'm not sure what the official Calvinist view of free will, but mine is somewhat uncertain. Currently, I see it much like a world with boundaries. Some events God decrees to take place through His eternal providence and guidance, while others He foreknows. As such, my salvation is known and secure in God, not because He foreknows, but because He has chosen me. However, the circumstances that lead to my salvation I see as God guiding the choices people make in such a way as to bring me to salvation.

Not sure I'm making sense, on this issue I do not have a firm opinion, but only ideas. So I am interested to hear how others think about this.

 

[servant4ever]

You can check out what an Open Theist believes by looking at www.gregboyd.org. Just so you know where I'm coming from belief-wise.

 

[Knight]

Hey, thank you for your replies! Not trying to argue here, but I have another question here, do Calvinists believe humans have free will? If so, how is that affected by God's election?

servant4ever

Yes. Humans have free will. I have the free will to have another cup of coffee this morning. I have the free will to read the newspaper. I have the free will to use the stall instead of the urinal......

However, we are only free as far as our nature will permit. I am not free to live on the bottom of the ocean because my nature (and desire to breathe) forbids it.

This applies most especially to salvation. Our sinful, fallen nature will not seek God in and of itself.

Rom 3:10-12 (NIV)
As it is written:
There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.

1 Cor 2:14 (NIV)
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This is where God's election comes in. We can't seek Him on our own so he sends His Spirit to regenerate us and change our nature so we will seek Him. It's ultimately up to God as to who will seek Him.

 

[servant4ever]

But then does God make us accept Him during the altar call? In other words, does God make the "elected person" stand up and walk down the aisle for the altar call? Becaue , according to what I'm understanding, the person themselves are not able to respond to the altar call unless God "pushes" them up there... Is this correct?

 

[Knight]

But then does God make us accept Him during the altar call? In other words, does God make the "elected person" stand up and walk down the aisle for the altar call? Becaue , according to what I'm understanding, the person themselves are not able to respond to the altar call unless God "pushes" them up there... Is this correct?

Not quite....

God plants the desire in our hearts to seek Him.

His call is not forced.... It's effective.

 

[servant4ever]

So, the person's free will still helps them decide if they want Christ? If so, can the person who has the desire, reject Him? For example, I have this desire to major in Bible, but I am too shy to tell my parents that, so I major in Business. Is it something like that?

 

[HiredGoon]

Jonathan Edwards wrote that we have the free will to choose our strongest desire at any given moment, and that to choose at all, we must choose our strongest desire. So, if through election, God chooses to call us, our stongest desire is to respond and choose to follow him. The choice is both determined and free. I believe that once God has called us we would never choose to reject him, because our strongest desire is now to follow God. Now, not all who hear the gospel respond by choosing to follow God, because not all have been called by God.

 

[Knight]

Jonathan Edwards wrote that we have the free will to choose our strongest desire at any given moment, and that to choose at all, we must choose our strongest desire. So, if through election, God chooses to call us, our stongest desire is to respond and choose to follow him. The choice is both determined and free. I believe that once God has called us we would never choose to reject him, because our strongest desire is now to follow God. Now, not all who hear the gospel respond by choosing to follow God, because not all have been called by God.

I couldn't have said it any better......

 

[servant4ever]

But what if we don't choose the stronger desire? Like with my example of my major? I really really want to major in Bible, but I am majoring in business because I'm too weak to stand up against my parents...

 

[Knight]

With God's Effectual call (Otherwise known as Irresistable grace) there is always a response.

Rom. 9:16 (NIV)
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

 

[servant4ever]

So, what you are saying is that if God elects us we cannot resist that salvation?

 

[Knight]

So, what you are saying is that if God elects us we cannot resist that salvation?

That's the nutshell version.

Personally, I'm glad that my salvation is not in my hands.....

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

That's the nutshell version.

Personally, I'm glad that my salvation is not in my hands.....

Amen to that! It would be horrible if salvation were truly my choice. For then, I could later choose not to be saved! If salvation is our choice, then it is no longer grace, but works.

 

[servant4ever]

Since salvation is not in our hands, who is responsible for sin? If we can't choose betwen God and sin, who is responsible for it?

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

Since salvation is not in our hands, who is responsible for sin? If we can't choose betwen God and sin, who is responsible for it?

we are entirely responsible for our own sin.

Matthew 18:7 “Woe to the world for temptations to sin! [2] For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes! 8 And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell [3] of fire.

Romans 3:5 But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) 6 By no means! For then how could God judge the world? 7 But if through my lie God's truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? 8 And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.

Romans 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, [2] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,