What is sin?

[All Becomes New]

Yes He was different but is there not an advantage to be had in being God when tempted in the desert? What purpose would that serve when the outcome was obvious. The whole point of it was supposed to be it wouldn't be obvious but that a man prevailed over temptation in order to worthy of being King of a new Kingdom. He said we are not to test the Father when told to throw Himself down, but rather obey. Did God have to prove Himself to Himself in order to reign over His own Kingdom?

Christ did not have the capacity to sin. He never would in any possible worlds because He is God, fully. And God is fully Good, and Pure, and Holy.

 

[timothyu]

Christ did not have the capacity to sin.

Then He proved nothing to mankind without the ability to do so.

 

[All Becomes New]

Then He proved nothing to mankind without the ability to do so.

How do you suppose God has the capacity to sin?

 

[timothyu]

How do you suppose God has the capacity to sin?

You are right. He cannot go against his own will. So there is no point in Him setting that example for man. A man has to do that guided by the HS. The temptation was always there and He asked to be relieved of the suffering but ONLY id the Father willed it. He did His part in reversing that Eve had done. A normal human could not have done this and it would be pointless in God doing it. But of course that created a dilemma for doctrine lovers. Think of Jesus as an Adam or Eve, not a regular man or God but a new original format pure human put to the test once more.

 

[mlepfitjw]

Even while we are still sinners are we able through God by the spirit to overcome the temptations that can lead us down rabbit holes that can in the end lead to an early death?

Though it is not us who does that work we acknowledge that it is God who prevails through the spirit by our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and we do not see ourselves as better than others? @timothyu @True Counterphobia

just curious saw y’all chatting back and forth and thought I would ask about this since the topic is sin after all. Thank you both.

 

[Mark Quayle]

You've read meaning into my statement that is in no way implied. And yes it is the 'Straight and narrow.'

Every sin IS fatal --either to the sinner or to Christ.

 

[All Becomes New]

Even while we are still sinners are we able through God by the spirit to overcome the temptations that can lead us down rabbit holes that can in the end lead to an early death?

Though it is not us who does that work we acknowledge that it is God who prevails through the spirit by our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and we do not see ourselves as better than others? @timothyu @True Counterphobia

just curious saw y’all chatting back and forth and thought I would ask about this since the topic is sin after all. Thank you both.

Some thoughts...

We work WITH the Holy Spirit. It's God working through us when we do Good, but because we are still fallen, we never fully "get there". As Paul says, Romans 7:18-19 "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing." I personally believe Paul is talking about himself in the present state of salvation and not before regeneration. Therefore, the flesh can do nothing else except to sin! So you rightly say that the Holy Spirit is necessary to do ANY DEGREE of Good. But we must remember that sin is a condition, not a "thing-in-itself". Sin is a LACK of Goodness and by this LACK we are all condemned.

Also, categorically, some people are "worse" and "better" than others. But this is not the defining characteristic of our salvation because God only counts our Good we do upon judgement day if we are in Christ. Just as I may not get as good of rewards in heaven for my actions as someone else like Mother Teresa, so too some people's judgement in condemnation is more severe based on, not their deeds, but the condition of their heart. Pharaoh is going to have a worse punishment than I am because Pharaoh hardened his heart against God.

 

[Palmfever]

Every sin IS fatal --either to the sinner or to Christ.

1 John, 5:16. If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

But I get it. If we consider that Christ died for all sin, then yes, it resulted in death, but not all the common mistakes we make in life are.
In Christ

 

[timothyu]

God only counts our Good we do upon judgement day if we are in Christ.

God only works with those who allow Him to. If they do, as time progresses, the more they allow allow Him to work through them, the more room they make for Him and less for themselves.. If they don't then God cannot use them and they are not of God.

 

[mlepfitjw]

Some thoughts...

We work WITH the Holy Spirit. It's God working through us when we do Good, but because we are still fallen, we never fully "get there". As Paul says, Romans 7:18-19 "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing." I personally believe Paul is talking about himself in the present state of salvation and not before regeneration. Therefore, the flesh can do nothing else except to sin! So you rightly say that the Holy Spirit is necessary to do ANY DEGREE of Good. But we must remember that sin is a condition, not a "thing-in-itself". Sin is a LACK of Goodness and by this LACK we are all condemned.

Also, categorically, some people are "worse" and "better" than others. But this is not the defining characteristic of our salvation because God only counts our Good we do upon judgement day if we are in Christ. Just as I may not get as good of rewards in heaven for my actions as someone else like Mother Teresa, so too some people's judgement in condemnation is more severe based on, not their deeds, but the condition of their heart. Pharaoh is going to have a worse punishment than I am because Pharaoh hardened his heart against God.

@True Counterphobia Thank you for your thoughts on my questioning brother.

As we have establish our relationship with God, and the Son of God, The Lord Jesus Christ. We have connection from above and are given a spirit.

I believe that we wont never be perfect in the sense that Jesus Christ was, but that holy spirit that is lives inside of any believer, will never cause any sin what so ever.

We have however can be mature (perfect) in the sense of relationship of our faith as we progress onward in our relationship.

In which we give an individual account alone to God;
Romans 14:12 So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

2 Timothy 1:7-9

7 God gave us his Spirit. And the Spirit doesn’t make us weak and fearful. Instead, the Spirit gives us power and love. He helps us control ourselves. 8 So don’t be ashamed of the message about our Lord. And don’t be ashamed of me, his prisoner. Instead, join with me as I suffer for the good news. God’s power will help us do that. 9 God has saved us. He has chosen us to live a holy life. It wasn’t because of anything we have done. It was because of his own purpose and grace. Through Christ Jesus, God gave us this grace even before time began.

 

[RDKirk]

The only thing I’d disagree on is that He doesn’t set the standard. He is the standard. The standard isn’t outside of him.

Otherwise, amen.

Nor above Him. Because He is the standard, there is no standard by which He is measured, nor one to which He must adhere.

 

[timothyu]

but that holy spirit that is lives inside of any believer, will never cause any sin what so ever.

The HS won't but we may still exert our own will to do so and stumble at times. Jesus sent the HS to His followers as they already knew the Kingdom and were willing to be kept on the path to it by the HS rather than fall to the wayside like in the Parable of the Sower. Stumbles will occur but the idea is to not fall in the ditch.

 

[mlepfitjw]

The HS won't but we may still exert our own will to do so and stumble at times. Jesus sent the HS to His followers as they already knew the Kingdom and were willing to be kept on the path to it by the HS rather than fall to the wayside like in the Parable of the Sower. Stumbles will occur but the idea is to not fall in the ditch

@timothyu Absolutely agree, with you about our own will.

Though the perception of our own will would be what?

Would you be willing to expound on this notion?

Just was thinking about our flesh.

Our flesh can deceive us if we are thinking on worldly ways and not heavenly ways that come from the spirit.

Our minds can tell us we are not good enough, we are never gonna be forgiven, we can stumble in to depression because of the way the world around us is being at the time may become super harsh, no jobs calling, no car, just lost a home, just lost a loved one, what else could we think of possibly?

The worldly ways can be big and I dont think that I can call upon every one of them myself.

We will stumble at times of course, and for me in those cases will be always in the idea of failing to love unconditionally others, and the times were we ask for help from God but do not fully place our trust in his ability to help out with whatever it is. (Faith and Love)

The only things I can think of for believers to mess up are in these cases as far as not loving, and not having faith.

Would you happen to have any more ways we could possibly add to this if at all there any other ways that we can stumble as a Christian believer, that pertains to sin.

 

[timothyu]

Would you be willing to expound on this notion?

It is quite simple although religion itself likes to complicate things to make itself needed while in the process causing fear and self doubt within people.

Mankind since the Garden has lived under the original and only sin of self interest. We put our will ahead of the will of God. This self interest leads to self determination of what is good and evil to self justify what we do in the pursuit of gain at the expense of others . It leads to all the woes in the world from theft and adultery to wars. Everything that is done in the world we have created in our own image.

Jesus gave us an alternate way to live by putting the will of the Father ahead of our own, loving all as self, which removes self interest. Nothing man devises or justifies including in many doctrines can serve God as it was intended to serve self interest.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

1 Corinthians 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

 

[All Becomes New]

but that holy spirit that is lives inside of any believer, will never cause any sin what so ever.

I agree. I would just add that no one on earth can hear perfectly from the Holy Spirit, hence, why we can never measure up to Christ.

 

[All Becomes New]

God only works with those who allow Him to. If they do, as time progresses, the more they allow allow Him to work through them, the more room they make for Him and less for themselves.. If they don't then God cannot use them and they are not of God.

Sure. I am a monergist pre-salvation and synergist post-salvation. We cooperate with the Holy Spirit and that is how Good is done.

 

[Masaru Hashimoto]

I’m just curious as to others definition or understanding of what sin is.

I like the Westminster Shorter Catechism.

Sin is any want of conformity unto, or transgression of, the law of God.

From my own experiences and what the Bible says, I would say that sin is everything that God hates - the love of the world - the love of fresh, the love of eyes, the pride of life, disobedient to the commands/Word (Bible) of God. God hates sins, but He loves sinners all of us. That is why He sent His only begotten Son so that anybody believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life even if we sin as long as we repent and turn away from it.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Sure. I am a monergist pre-salvation and synergist post-salvation. We cooperate with the Holy Spirit and that is how Good is done.

sounds like sarcasm

 

[All Becomes New]

sounds like sarcasm

???

Not sure how you are getting that you think I am being sarcastic?

 

[Mark Quayle]

???

Not sure how you are getting that you think I am being sarcastic?

No, I was asking --not saying you were being sarcastic. But it did sound that way to me.

No biggy, and probably considered OT, but I have always found it interesting how a person can be a monergist concerning salvation, but a synergist otherwise. Like many other things, (for example, how a person can call themselves non-denominational may be from simply not realizing what denomination lines up with their thinking), you may consider 'synergism' vaguely, by saying one is "cooperating" with God, rather than using a more pointed definition, that says that the two efforts are greater than either one by itself.

It is something I started a thread on a while back and would like to discuss it more but I guess this isn't the thread for it.

Edit: Actually the doctrine of sin impinges on the question of monergism vs synergism rather dramatically; I leave it up to you to discuss or not, since it is your thread.