What is sin?

[holo]

How much of the 613 laws actually dictated what was right and wrong morally.

How do you determine what is right and wrong morally? If God says to do something, isn't it necessarily immoral to not do it?

Or to cut to chase; how is the sabbath commandment a "moral" commandment while, say, the commandment to not eat pork isn't?

Dividing the law into "ceremonial" and "moral" parts and such, is just a human exercise that God never told us to do.

It is mainly the 10 commandments that really gives the knowledge of sin.

That is true, and one of the very few times the ten commandments are mentioned in the bible as an entity apart from the entire law, is when Paul calls it the ministry of Death - when the commandment came, sin sprang to life, he said. Just like when you tell a child that he must absolutely not, under any circumstance, peek into the closet. He will then be completely unable NOT to peek into the closet. That's what the law did, still does, and was designed to do. So yes, it really does give the knowledge of sin. Of good and evil, if you will. A knowledge God forbade man to have.

Much better to have the knowledge of righteousness, which is Christ

 

[Advent Christian]

Hello all it has been a while, been busy with my web site.
Anyway I have to say there are a lot of interesting answers to exactly what is sin.
As for me I would have to stand on the beleif that in it’s simplest form, sin is the intentional disobeying of God’s will for us and God's Will for His children are well documented through out His Word.

rEVOLVEr
As to the simple answer you asked for as to rather or not homosexual behavior is sinful or not;
in simplicity yes. If I am not mistaken the bible reffers to it a an abomination.
Anyway I have to get to work now,
My love to all and May God Bless.

 

[rEVOLVEr]

deleted

 

[Arphaxad12]

Hi Everyone!

Here's a link showing a fact of human nature we should all be aware of - The secret attraction of sin. After all, what good is a commandment if you can't break it?

http://www.mrboffo.com/comicsweb/catswithhandsweb/strips/20070806cwh_s_web.jpg

It's just a cartoon, but it's wisdom is as ageless as all Creation!

I checked the website thoroughly for any viruses and/or spyware and it's as clean as can be.

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
----------

 

[Arphaxad12]

Hey rEVOLVEr

Here are the "magic words" that are the "kiss of death" for atheism. I assume you are familiar with their meaning. If not, please "Google" them:

"UNIVERSAL NEGATIVE"

Ok, Being the soft-hearted guy I am, I decided to help you out by doing some of the research for you. Here it is from Google:
==========================================================
Proving a Universal Negative:

Science is ill-equipped to prove universal negatives by virtue of the fact that its participants are not omnipresent and have limited resources. As a result, atheists have not basis beyond faith for the foundation of their belief:

The burden of proof lies with the atheists to prove that there is no God. Because they believe only in what they can see, they have to go everywhere in the universe, throughout time and see for themselves that God doesn't exist. Until they can do this, their assertion that there is no God is merely an expression based on faith just like a religious belief.

the CultureWarrior
=========================

​

Agnosticism is a much more logical and tenable theology than atheism:

Cheers,
Arphaxad
----------

 

[rEVOLVEr]

deleted

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

What is sin?
To sin is to go against God. God gave Moses ten commandment. Jesus summed them up into love for God and love for our fellow human beings. Therefore, to go against love-which is to be selfish, is to sin. Jesus showed us what true love is. He loved us first; without expecting anything in return. He loved us by sacrificing His life in order to compensate for our sins; although we betrayed Him and was unfaithful to Him. Only this kind of love is free of selfishness or sin. Therefore, to be free of sin we must love God and our fellow human being unconditionally.

For what it's worth.

The word "sin"... means "to miss the mark of perfection", as if aiming an arrow at a target.

Forgive me...

 

[Arphaxad12]

Hi Everyone!

Here's an apparent mystery concerning sin. (or the absence thereof). A good knowledge of Greek is very helpful in understanding the following verse correctly:
============================
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin (ou dunamai harmatano), because he is born of God.

(parentheses are my own).
============================

I'm told by people who are native Greek speakers that "ou dunamai harmatano" means: "is incapable of sin."

The Latin Vulgate (350 AD) says:
============================
Whosoever is born of God committeth not sin: for his seed abideth in him. And he cannot sin (non potest peccare), because he is born of God.

(parentheses are my own)
============================

"non potest peccare" accurately translates to: ("has no ability to sin").

Could this mean "incapable of sin in his spirit?"

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
-----------

 

[Arphaxad12]

Hi again Everyone!

In our efforts to define exactly what sin is it seems that we have been investigating the external manifestations of an internal problem in Man's nature.

It might be very helpful to examine the internal cause of sin. I think that's where we would find the most accurate definition. I believe sin is an internal problem in Man's nature. But exactly what is that problem and what is it's cause?

Well, here's a theory: The cartoon I posted earlier in this topic illustrates the exact nature of internal sin better than a whole lot of words.

The "forbidden fruit thing" mentioned by one of the cats in the cartoon, is the essential irresistible temptation of sin:
===========================================================
Romans 7:7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."
8 But sin (in me), seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. (underlines, bolding and color emphasis are my own).
==========================================================

So sin says: "What good is a commandment if you can't break it?" In other words: "A commandment gives me a great opportunity to show the Lord who's the boss!"

Yes, Man really wants to be the boss, especially over his own life. Incredible as it sounds, ever since Adam, Man has had an insatiable desire to be God, to be his own God and tell God to "get outta Dodge, this universe ain't big enough for both of us!"

To this day Man sits in "the temple" showing himself that he is God. Paul said: "that man of sin shall be revealed." And everyone looks for some super-evil person, when in fact we should be looking at our own fleshly nature.

True, in our spirit we believers are the very righteousness of Christ, but most of the time the intense heavy influence of the Prince of this world prevails in our lives and instead of overcoming, we are overcome.

This is especially true because of the prevailing atmosphere of denominational division that has destroyed the overcoming power of the Body of Christ for the past 1900 tears. United we will overcome, but united we are not until the Lord pours His Spirit out like a flood upon His people in these last days of Satan's power.

Best Blessings,
Arphaxad
--------------

 

[squint]

Hi Everyone!

Here's an apparent mystery concerning sin. (or the absence thereof). A good knowledge of Greek is very helpful in understanding the following verse correctly:
============================
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin (ou dunamai harmatano), because he is born of God.

(parentheses are my own).
============================

I'm told by people who are native Greek speakers that "ou dunamai harmatano" means: "is incapable of sin."

The Latin Vulgate (350 AD) says:
============================
Whosoever is born of God committeth not sin: for his seed abideth in him. And he cannot sin (non potest peccare), because he is born of God.

(parentheses are my own)
============================

"non potest peccare" accurately translates to: ("has no ability to sin").

Could this mean "incapable of sin in his spirit?"

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
-----------

Ah, such great and even satisfying mysteries and conflicts.

When "we" as believers see and realize that the sin we are ALL bound with is NOT US just as it was NOT PAUL as Paul so adroitly stated in Romans 7:17-21 we should be able to understand how it is that "we" as God's children DO NOT and CANNOT sin, yet INDWELLING SIN is with us and it is WITH US as something from THE DEVIL....

When we see ourselves AND our fellow man in this SCRIPTURAL FACT...

Then judgment passes away from our fellow man whom "we" are commanded to LOVE....

And sound judgment abides even greater in our hands because we "know" from whence it comes...

In this way we fulfill both sides of the ledger of LOVE and of DAMNATION JUDGMENT...as these measures are meant for two entirely different entities.

The entirety of scripture will unfold for the children of God in Love to their fellow man in this way AND every eternal torture, damnation and wrath scripture is fully applicable...

enjoy!

squint

 

[Arphaxad12]

Hi Squint!

Great Post! As you said: "INDWELLING SIN is with us and it is WITH US as something from THE DEVIL." (end quote).

But I don't think we should disregard our susceptibility to the influence of the Prince of this World. Most believers are severely internally divided, their "eye is not single" in purpose as Jesus' was. Jesus was not susceptible to Satan's influence at all. He was not fooled in the slightest by Satan's promises of grandeur.

Most believers are not 100% fully persuaded within themselves that the Lord's way is the absolute best. Thus we are burdened with vulnerability to Satan's lies.

the only persons in the bible I can think of who were fully persuaded that walking with the Lord is the absolute best were Enoch and Elijah. Enoch walked with God, resisted the temptation to be God, thus pleased the Lord and received "the crown of life" given to those who resist temptation as mentioned in James 1:2:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Jam 1:12 Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. (underline and bolding are my own),
--------------------------------------------------------------------

"The crown of life" has always been available from the Lord, but narrow is the way and few there be that find it. With the exception of Enoch and Elijah, all believers so far have taken "the broad way" that leads to death and resurrection. But Paul promises that other believers will receive that Crown of Life in the future:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

(underlines and bolding are my own).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Best Blessings,
Arphaxad
--------------

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Sin = Rejection of God

 

[squint]

Hi Squint!

Great Post! As you said: "INDWELLING SIN is with us and it is WITH US as something from THE DEVIL." (end quote).

But I don't think we should disregard our susceptibility to the influence of the Prince of this World.

Our Father has made our flesh and minds "subject" to that working. There is no avoidance of this fact. We suffer under the hands of evil influences, thoughts, actions...all of which are OF THE DEVIL.

Jesus gave us plenty of examples of this fact, even in Apostles. Jesus spoke to Satan in Peter, even to Peter's face, yet was speaking to SATAN in Peter. Satan entered Judas. Paul openly admitted the presence of a "special messenger of Satan" that was given to him to buffet his flesh because of the exceeding revelations he had received. There are thousands more examples. Just a single man of the Gadarenes had an entire LEGION of devils upon him that tormented him continually. So this fact is very well established and NEARLY ALWAYS overlooked when we examine the subject of sin and the causes thereof.

Paul carried this working of evil with him continually, stating that whenever he wanted to do good that EVIL was PRESENT with him.

In short, this is just a FACT of our present existence as human beings and even all of creation suffers under this evil influence of corruption and death.

Most believers are severely internally divided, their "eye is not single" in purpose as Jesus' was. Jesus was not susceptible to Satan's influence at all.

I agree. He was the ONE exception and that is why we "listen" to Him in these matters. Many of Jesus' Words were directed to DEVILs in mankind. LOOK closely when Jesus spoke to the Pharisees and Jesus was OPENLY ADDRESSING the children of the DEVIL in those men. Most "believers" who suffer under those same influences just are not allowed to see this simple fact, and instead under those same influences themselves ONLY BLAME AND ACCUSE MANKIND, which is a WORK OF THE DEVIL in their own flesh. I do not blame believers for this action because I know where it stems from...the DEVIL.

We as believers have a COMMAND that we cannot SHIRK and that is to LOVE OUR NEIGHBORS as ourselves...There is no way to do THAT in judgment. Love keeps no record of wrongs...Love does no ILL...Love NEVER fails...

The "prince" of this world however is soooo judged.

He was not fooled in the slightest by Satan's promises of grandeur.

Most believers are not 100% fully persuaded within themselves that the Lord's way is the absolute best. Thus we are burdened with vulnerability to Satan's lies.

the only persons in the bible I can think of who were fully persuaded that walking with the Lord is the absolute best were Enoch and Elijah. Enoch walked with God, resisted the temptation to be God, thus pleased the Lord and received "the crown of life" given to those who resist temptation as mentioned in James 1:2:

True as to those whom God Himself has called and empowered in this present life. This does not mean that God in Christ has abandoned the slaves of SIN whatsoever. He LOVES them and HE will SAVE THEM ALL.

Anyone who dies is RELEASED FROM SIN. (Romans 6:7) The "reason" anyone dies is release from sin is because SIN INDWELLS THE FLESH. That is also why we get "new bodies" that are not "susceptible" to that working of EVIL and CORRUPTION.

"The crown of life" has always been available from the Lord, but narrow is the way and few there be that find it.

The "crown" we seek is OUR FELLOW MAN...ALLLL of them...in His Love extended IN US and THROUGH US. That is the call of Him to us all who believe.

Any who fall short of this are pawns of the broad path that leads to destruction SEEING how such slaves condemn nearly ALL of our fellow man to be burned alive forever. These types of believers are our fallen commrades, and those whom I have the greatest compassion for, seeing their such sorry measure. You and I have probably both walked under that dire burden upon our own hearts, but have been FREED into His Love for all mankind. What a wonderful life...yet one that is perpetually filled with resistance once this reality is noted within.

We know our enemies and we know our friends.

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Best Blessings,
Arphaxad
--------------

I've been noting yer work. Yer doin' good. May we all press to His Perfection in His Love, as that's where He IS and HE has given that to us WITHIN...in our SPIRITS...such an immeasurable GIFT from Above, and one without ENDING.

enjoy!

squint

 

[rEVOLVEr]

deleted

 

[Arphaxad12]

Hi Again Squint!

Thanks for your response. We should be hitting "bedrock" any time now.

I agree with much of what you say, especially with your statement that the Lord will never abandon anyone:
--------------------------------------
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially (but not exclusively) of those that believe.

(parentheses are my own)
--------------------------------------

I do believe though that the Lord would never allow any believer to be a helpless victim of Satan's wiles. Even the Gadarene demoniac knew where to go to get rid of the terrible oppression he was suffering. I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus came to that country just to deliver that one man because Jesus knew the man would be willing to be free of his misery. Yes, you read correctly. The Gadarene demoniac was willing to be made free, just as the crippled man at the pool of Bethesda did not say "no" when Jesus asked him: "Wilt thou be made whole?"

True, like most of us, the crippled man at the pool enjoyed a bit of complaining which Jesus totally ignored. But the man basically accepted his healing in spite of the hard time he knew he would get from the Pharisees and others who didn't accept Jesus. "Desperation is 'the mother' of bravery."

In short: Ultimately, everyone, regenerate and unregenerate alike, has the God-given ability to choose both salvation and freedom from the heavy cloud of negative influence cast over the entire Earth by the Prince of the Power of the Air. The Lord has not left anyone with any excuse as a helpless victim:

All that is needed is a deep heartfelt abiding internal decision to turn from depending on ourselves to depending on God, and thus walk into all the blessings you mentioned.

Do I seem too harsh? I can guarantee you that when everything is finally sorted out, it will be clearly seen that the Lord has left no one helpless or abandoned. But, that most, if not all, suffered by following their own ideas.

This even includes our beloved apostle Paul who insisted on trying to convert the stubborn Jews in direct disobedience to the Lord's instructions. Even Job, in his colossal, ignorant self-righteousness, put himself in Satan's hand, complained endlessly about the Lord, and never once prayed to be healed. If any man has no choice regarding his own destiny, then he also has a perfect excuse. And believe me, there will be VERY few, if any, who have any excuse. In the final analysis we will ALL bow, not before the Lord's great power, but before His great mercy and kindness.

Very Best Blessings,
"Arph"
------------
P.S. I edited my most recent post just before this one. You might want to check out the changes.

Re: Some other things you mentioned: I believe Paul's "thorn in the flesh" was the intense guilt he constantly suffered because of his persecution of the early Church. No small thing, very self-destructive as seen in his behavior.

"When I would do good" - The best way to do good is not to try, just do it and don't judge it.

 

[squint]

Hi Again Squint!

Thanks for your response. We should be hitting "bedrock" any time now.

I do believe though that the Lord would never allow any believer to be a helpless victim of Satan's wiles.

Even the Gadarene demoniac knew where to go to get rid of the terrible oppression he was suffering.

Strange as it may seem, it was probably the demons in that man that were drawn to Jesus...more than the will of the man enslaved, though I'm sure he wanted his freedom as well. (Where the Word is sown, Satan comes immediately)

I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus came to that country just to deliver that one man because Jesus knew the man would be willing to be free of his misery. Yes, you read correctly. The Gadarene demoniac was willing to be made free, just as the crippled man at the pool of Bethesda did not say "no" when Jesus asked him: "Wilt thou be made whole?"

In their heart of hearts ALL mankind desires to be made free of our present corruption. We "yearn" for our eternal habitations. And yes, Jesus did come to SAVE, even that man of the Gadarenes. Yet that same man was "allowed" to be bound by those things by God.

True, like most of us, the crippled man at the pool enjoyed a bit of complaining which Jesus totally ignored. But the man basically accepted his healing in spite of the hard time he knew he would get from the Pharisees and others who didn't accept Jesus. "Desperation is 'the mother' of bravery."

heh heh heh. Very true.

In short: Ultimately, everyone, regenerate and unregenerate alike, has the God-given ability to choose both salvation and freedom from the heavy cloud of negative influence cast over the entire Earth by the Prince of the Power of the Air. The Lord has not left anyone with any excuse as a helpless victim:

I don't blame mankinds will's. None of us can "will" ourselves sinless nor are we promised sinless flesh. In fact and unfortunately it's mostly the opposite.

All that is needed is a deep heartfelt abiding internal decision to turn from depending on ourselves to depending on God, and thus walk into all the blessings you mentioned.

Not much on the "activate God in your behalf today" camp either. I believe God has a firm hand on all of his children and yes, all are His children whether we presently see this or not.

Do I seem too harsh? I can guarantee you that when everything is finally sorted out, it will be clearly seen that the Lord has left no one helpless or abandoned, but that most, if not all, suffered by following their own ideas.

And that to me will be just another spin on the "blame and accuse the man" game. Easy mark, but the wrong mark. WHY is it do you think that we ALL blame and accuse each other, and of course we nearly ALL fail to render the devil into these equations? Do you really think Peter had a choice when SATAN spoke through him? Peter didn't have a single clue that those words he spoke were not his. Not a clue. So WHY blame Peter? To me those who would blame Peter or any other person of mankind are doing so under that same influence of Satan.

Measure for measure. IF I desire to be measured as how I would be measured, then it may seem incumbent to measure the other as PERFECT even though that may not be something that I can presently perceive. If God really is at the helm of all things, then I should also trust that every move that is made is thusly Perfect in His Hands. This passes understanding, not that I'm against understanding...

This even includes our beloved apostle Paul who insisted on trying to convert the stubborn Jews in direct disobedience to the Lord's instructions. Even Job, in his colossal, ignorant self-righteousness, put himself in Satan's hand, complained endlessly about the Lord, and never once prayed to be healed.

Something that would come to us in these matters of finding understandings is IF we are all bound with sin indwelling which IS of the DEVIL, then how would one go about perceiving what is of the DEVIL and what is of God's child? So, my measure IS if anyone "blames and accuses" their fellow man AND ignores the devil's role in these matters, my suspect alert has already been met. Not that I think any less of the child of God mind you...

If any man has no choice regarding his own destiny, then he also has a perfect excuse.

Excuse for what? Do you really feel the need to dangle "choice" over any person's head? And for what reason? To "keep them in line?" One will never keep the devil in line. The Law tells us that quite clearly. The Law amplifies lawlessness. Empowers it even.

Now if the Law does that...what would you think LOVE might do to arouse the devil?

We do not LOVE by our choices. Love is OF GOD and FROM GOD. Love is HIM moving in us. No mere man or devil can stop that. Yet we find LOVE perfected IN WEAKNESS. What then is our weakness if not the sin that indwells us? Food for thoughts.

And believe me, there will be VERY few, if any, who have any excuse. In the final analysis we will ALL bow, not before the Lord's great power, but before His great mercy and kindness.

I'm with you there.

enjoy!

squint

 

[MadHermit]

Sin is not rejection, disobedience, or rebellion against God or anyone else. Sin is simply falling short of God's intent. That can be something as simple as poor eating habits leading to poor health when God's intent is that you eat healthily (please do not read more into this, it is only an example). Or it could be something as drastic as rebellion, rejection, etc...

God has a plan and a goal for each of us. When we fall short of that intended goal, we sin. The Holy Spirit convicts us, encourages us, empowers us, and so we progress toward the goal.

2 Cor 3:18
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
(NKJ)

The problem with discussing sin, is that most people view it only from the perspective of breaking God's law. Inevitably, that law is some portion of the law given in the Old Testament. If Old Testament law remains in effect, then there should be regular executions for all sorts of things... however, there are not. Old Testament law has been disarmed by grace... it no longer has any teeth. Dishonor your parents all you want, chances are no one is going to stone you.

However, the wages of sin remain death, just not immediate. This is why

Matt 24:13
13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
(NKJ)

 

[Arphaxad12]

Hi Again Squint!

Thanks again for your thoughtful response.

However, at this point in time I think we need to make a very clear distinction between "the natural man" (unregenerate person) and "the believer in Christ" (regenerate, new creature).

The reason being is that when it comes to the influence of the Prince of this World. It is MUCH stronger upon "the natural man" than upon the regenerate believer in Christ. Here's an example of the condition of believers as it pertains to Satan:
---------------------------------------------------
Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Mar 16:17-18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (choice available).

(underlines, bolding and parentheses are my own).
----------------------------------------------------

So obviously, the regenerate believer in Christ has been extremely well equipped by God to defeat the Devil at every turn. Paul said: "We are more than conquerers."

On the other hand "the natural man" is in an entirely different condition in terms of his vulnerability to the Devil:
-----------------------------------------------------
1Cr 2:14 But the natural (unregenerate) man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Cr 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

1Cr 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

(underlines, bolding and color emphases are my own).
----------------------------------------------------

So without controversy, the bible makes a tremendous distinction between the unregenerate person and the person spiritually resurrected (born again) by God with the spirit of Christ in them.

You could say that the difference between a born-again person and a "the natural man" is as great as the difference between an Eagle and a pig. They have two completely different natures. Eagles never wallow in the mud and pigs never fly.

So at this point we can begin evaluating the difference in susceptibility to the Devil between "the natural man" and ourselves, a holy nation and royal priesthood of regenerate believers in Christ:
----------------------------------------------------
1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
----------------------------------------------------

Also we need a better definition of the word "flesh" as used by Paul in the spiritual rather than the literal sense. Literal "flesh" is simply "dead meat." It has no inherent evil or goodness connected with it.

Here's the proof that Man is a spirit-being inhabiting a body of flesh (neutral protoplasm) so that he can interact with his physical surroundings:
---------------------------------------------------
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (the spirit of life); and man became a living soul.

1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam (Jesus) was made a quickening (life-giving) spirit.

(underlines, parentheses and bolding are my own.)
---------------------------------------------------

So the whole point is that "flesh," especially as used in the NT doesn't mean literal protoplasm. I believe the best biblical definitions would be "natural humanness" or in some instances, "human/carnal thinking":
----------------------------------------------------
1Pe 4:1-2 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh (disregarded His natural human desires even unto death), arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh (put his carnal thinking to death) hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh (following carnal thinking) to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Act 2:30 Therefore (David) being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

2Cr 10:2 But I beseech [you], that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh. (in human thinking)

Eph 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are [your] masters according to the flesh, (earthly, rather than spiritual masters) with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;

Rom 7:5-6 For when we were in the flesh (unregenerate), the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

Phl 3:3-4 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh (human ways).
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

Col 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

(underlines, parentheses and bolding are my own).
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The Greek word for "flesh" is "sarx." Here's the correct definition:

b) used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship
1) born of natural generation
c) the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature"
1) without any suggestion of depravity
2) the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
3) the physical nature of man as subject to suffering
3) a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast

This is the definition I think is most biblically accurate as used by Paul, Peter and the other NT writers. It is a SPIRITUAL, rather than physical definition:
4) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God.

Very Best Blessings,
Arphaxad
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[squint]

Hi Again Squint!
we need to make a very clear distinction between "the natural man" (unregenerate person) and "the believer in Christ" (regenerate, new creature).

When we make that distinction, let us remember not to foul the natural man, seeing they do not KNOW they are enslaved to sin and do not discern themselves from what they are bound with in the flesh, thinking "it's only them."

So how many believers remain "natural?" How much blame and accusation should we apply to them? ZERO. We are to love them ALL. And how we measure others is how we are measured.

The reason being is that when it comes to the influence of the Prince of this World. It is MUCH stronger upon "the natural man" than upon the regenerate believer in Christ.

Think so? How many "natural man" condemn their fellow man to be burned alive forever? Satan's influence is upon those who believe moreso than any other persons. One just can NOT hate their fellow man ANY MORE than condemning them to burn alive forever. If you want to know where Satan's seat is, read all about it in Rev. 2-3 and you will find that working "in the churches."

The natural man has Word stolen from him. The believers get twisted to utter divisions and hatred. You and I should be able to see that working quite clearly, as we are truly and nearly divided down to each single believer with the majority of believers in continual oppressive condemnation of our fellow man unto eternal torture in fire. Just how SICK is that anyway A?

Here's an example of the condition of believers as it pertains to Satan:
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Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Mar 16:17-18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (choice available).

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So obviously, the regenerate believer in Christ has been extremely well equipped by God to defeat the Devil at every turn. Paul said: "We are more than conquerers."

Deep subject and one that perhaps serves in another thread. In brief to walk in those truths one must be in Truth. To be "in Truth" is to be "truthful" about our own condition in these matters first and foremost. The majority of believers cannot come to grips with the fact that the sin that indwells them is NOT THEM, but IS of the devil. Most, and perhaps even you will not go there, thinking NO, NOT ME.

Yet Paul said EVIL was present with him "when" he desired to do good, showing that presence with him perhaps continually....DIG? Paul then in these matters was IN TRUTH. IN TRUTH Paul found his own identification, AND did not deny his condition, knowing what he was bound with and what all mankind are bound with was not him or our fellow man. Paul FOUND that narrow way that allowed him to LOVE the entirety of his fellow man while remaining in sound judgment as it pertained to that OTHER WORKING, and called those who did not have that perception SLAVES of that working, even as he remained a slave to sin in the flesh and the workings of the law as it pertains to that working of sin in the flesh.

These are interesting subjects and so true they are beyond refute.

On the other hand "the natural man" is in an entirely different condition in terms of his vulnerability to the Devil:
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1Cr 2:14 But the natural (unregenerate) man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Cr 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

1Cr 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
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So without controversy, the bible makes a tremendous distinction between the unregenerate person and the person spiritually resurrected (born again) by God with the spirit of Christ in them.

The Spirit in a believer will be known by the speaking of truth and the actions of LOVE and sound judgments. You will find few who will admit that the devil abides in their own flesh and you will find most still condemn the "natural man" and exalt themselves because "they believe."

You could say that the difference between a born-again person and a "the natural man" is as great as the difference between an Eagle and a pig. They have two completely different natures. Eagles never wallow in the mud and pigs never fly.

Jesus came to free the "slaves," the captives of sin. He did not come to call them PIGS.

So at this point we can begin evaluating the difference in susceptibility to the Devil between "the natural man" and ourselves, a holy nation and royal priesthood of regenerate believers in Christ:
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1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
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Also we need a better definition of the word "flesh" as used by Paul in the spiritual rather than the literal sense. Literal "flesh" is simply "dead meat." It has no inherent evil or goodness connected with it.

I agree. The flesh is a compilation of organic matter. The flesh is not the devil, nor is mankind the devil. The devil is an anti-Christ "spirit" who has many associated "anti-Christ" anti-spiritual workings IN the flesh and mind.

Here's the proof that Man is a spirit-being inhabiting a body of flesh (neutral protoplasm) so that he can interact with his physical surroundings:
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Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (the spirit of life); and man became a living soul.

1Cr 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam (Jesus) was made a quickening (life-giving) spirit.

(underlines, parentheses and bolding are my own.)
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So the whole point is that "flesh," especially as used in the NT doesn't mean literal protoplasm. I believe the best biblical definitions would be "natural humanness" or in some instances, "human/carnal thinking":
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1Pe 4:1-2 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh (disregarded His natural human desires even unto death), arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh (put his carnal thinking to death) hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh (following carnal thinking) to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Act 2:30 Therefore (David) being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

2Cr 10:2 But I beseech [you], that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh. (in human thinking)

Eph 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are [your] masters according to the flesh, (earthly, rather than spiritual masters) with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;

Rom 7:5-6 For when we were in the flesh (unregenerate), the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

Phl 3:3-4 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh (human ways).
4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

Col 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

(underlines, parentheses and bolding are my own).
---------------------------------------------------

The Greek word for "flesh" is "sarx." Here's the correct definition:

b) used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship
1) born of natural generation
c) the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature"
1) without any suggestion of depravity
2) the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin
3) the physical nature of man as subject to suffering
3) a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast

This is the definition I think is most biblically accurate as used by Paul, Peter and the other NT writers. It is a SPIRITUAL, rather than physical definition:
4) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God.

Very Best Blessings,
Arphaxad

You may note that even with 'natural man' they are STILL ALL GOD'S OFFSPRING. Acts 17:23-29

And ALL OF ISRAEL, though most were in unbelief were and are STILL GOD'S CHILDREN...Deut. 14:1 Psalm 82:6 etc.

Be cautious how you deal with such, as to slur any of them is to defy God and invoke wrath.

enjoy!

squint

 

[Arphaxad12]

Hi Again, Again Squint!

First off, let me hasten to say that I in no way accept the idea that the Lord is a vengeful angry 12-year-old who delights in watching the majority of His estimated unbelieving 30,000,000 (thirty billion) people who ever lived on Earth, roast interminably in screaming agony.

That idea ("Hell") was/is very effective in getting people to attend and financially support various churches of dubious quality through past centuries, up to and including the present time.

If the King James "Hell" is a reality, then Christ must not have done a thorough job in paying for the sin of all mankind. And if Jesus didn't completely obliterate and cleanse all sin from God's Creation He couldn't have been resurrected.

So Christ's resurrection is our "paid receipt" that ALL sin for ALL men for ALL time has been completely "blotted out" and nailed to His Cross, including ALL the sins of the unregenerate and unbelieving!

However, this fact does NOT mean that all men are automatically saved. In order to receive God's free gift of righteousness and a new holy nature, each person must still make a personal choice in some way to accept the finished work of Christ for themselves.

Righteous Abel, even though he never heard the name of Jesus, accepted the finished work of Christ by bringing a blood sacrifice to the Lord and was accepted. Whereas Cain brought a sacrifice of fruit and was rejected. How did righteous Abel know what to do?

And for the following reasons, even the unregenerate are responsible to accept God's priceless gift of salvation:
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Jhn 1:9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Act 17:26-30 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Rom 1:18-20 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

9 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

(underlines, bolding and color emphasis are my own).
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Although I heartily agree that the Prince of this World has "targeted" the Body of Christ for division and fragmentation unto complete powerlessness, and has done a superb job of destroying it's unity almost, as you said, down to a person, I still heartily acknowledge and champion God's marvelous miracle of regeneration within the spirit of each and every believer.
I also agree that for various reasons attributable to Satan's influence, this great inner spiritual resurrection (New Birth) accomplished by God in every believer is often suppressed to the point of being unrecognizable.

I am very cautions however of adopting any doctrine which deprives Man of his precious God-given gift of self-responsibility.

Yes, responsibility is a precious gift and a vital part of each man's identity and being. Without responsibility, Man is debased to the level of an animal and loses his identity and character as a human being.

Basically, our God-given gift of responsibility to God and to those created in His image, is what Christ died to preserve on that bloody Roman cross. This might require some contemplation, but by His selfless sacrifice, Christ enabled us to keep our character as those created in the image of God.

For this reason I refuse any doctrine which deprives Man of his precious God-given gift of human responsibility. Any doctrine which espouses the idea that the Lord has abandoned Man to be an irresponsible victim of his circumstances, including the "circumstance" of Satan's presence, denigrates the Lord's character terribly.

However, I CERTAINLY don't believe that any failure to fulfill our God-given responsibility to love the Lord and our fellow humans should be, or will be, "punished" with eternal torment in unquenchable fire. Such a doctrine would make the Lord appear to be a vengeful, infantile Beast. Which is exactly what Satan wants us all to believe about the Lord!

I do believe that all unbelievers who have ever died will be incorruptibly resurrected by Jesus and will need a vivid self-revelation in the intense light and "fire" of the Holy Spirit as to their need for justification, regeneration, and a blessed spiritual "second death" of their old God-hating, self-dependent, self-glorifying unregenerate nature:
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Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (past tense). (underlines, bolding and color emphasis are my own).
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"Blessed second death???" Please don't be shocked. All we believers have died a blessed "first death" of our "old man" when we came to God for our New Birth.

Our New Birth also includes a spiritual "first resurrection" from our dead and faithless old nature, and adoption by God forever as His own precious children into the spiritual lineage of the "Last Adam."

Best Blessings,
Arphaxad
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