What is sin?

[squint]

Hi Again, Again Squint!

First off, let me hasten to say that I in no way accept the idea that the Lord is a vengeful angry 12-year-old who delights in watching the majority of His estimated unbelieving 30,000,000 (thirty billion) people who ever lived on Earth, roast interminably in screaming agony.

A hearty AMEN to that! As if He Will not do far better...

That idea ("Hell") was/is very effective in getting people to attend and financially support various churches of dubious quality through past centuries, up to and including the present time.

And again, AMEN. Hell however as it pertains to eternal destruction/eradication is true for sin, evil, death and the workers of iniquity who HAPPEN to be found in our flesh as being OF THE DEVIL...

So it is problematic to DENY that reality when one does not have to.

If the King James "Hell" is a reality, then Christ must not have done a thorough job in paying for the sin of all mankind. And if Jesus didn't completely obliterate and cleanse all sin from God's Creation He couldn't have been resurrected.

And again, agreed, however I find no such promises for the anti-Christ spirits and as such THEY CAN AND DO have that coming...a permenant eradication of their "temporal" and "lifeless/dead" workings, which is how and why God made them.

So Christ's resurrection is our "paid receipt" that ALL sin for ALL men for ALL time has been completely "blotted out" and nailed to His Cross, including ALL the sins of the unregenerate and unbelieving!

IF you believed that then you'd have no use to condemn your fellow man or burn them temporarily or exalt yourself as a "believer" ahead of them. You are in fact to love them as yourself and as such you would rightfully place any blinded slave even ahead of yourself in line at the gates of heaven eh?

However, this fact does NOT mean that all men are automatically saved.

Never said they were in this present life, nor may God mean for "all" to see in this present life. I consider that if we love them and speak the truth to them, then no person of mankind will have ought against us for any reason...BECAUSE we do not condemn them in the name of our God or to slate them as any less than what God's Intentions are for their own lives, IN WHOM I TRUST for each and every one...DIG?

Let us suppose for the sake of loving them that all mankind are in fact serving God, even in carrying "unbelief" of various sorts which even "we" carry eh? Did you always believe the way you do NOW? Of course not, nor did I. So even we have been under various forms of 'unbelief' and I believe those things serve God as well...IN JUDGMENT of that working...for we also KNOW that it is the 'god of this world' who BLINDS mankind to His Love...and as such then WE SERVE in our flesh to JUDGE THAT WORKING OF THE DEVIL...unto his damnation.

In order to receive God's free gift of righteousness and a new holy nature, each person must still make a personal choice in some way to accept the finished work of Christ for themselves.

I will consider that just another bill of goods that is sold in the pews to financially support and burden the flock, not much different than the propitiation of eternal torture to mankind in fire. It's just another form of threat or separation unto those we are to love.

I have yet to find a single soul of unsaved mankind to be adverse to the fact that God Loves them without equivocation regardless of what they may think. No individual of mankind can STOP God's Love in Christ for them.

Righteous Abel, even though he never heard the name of Jesus, accepted the finished work of Christ by bringing a blood sacrifice to the Lord and was accepted. Whereas Cain brought a sacrifice of fruit and was rejected. How did righteous Abel know what to do?

I am not in the habit of blaming and accusing Adam or Cain or any other person of mankind, particularly when I see the reality of ALL of our conditions and our COMPLETE HELPLESSNESS to eradicate the presence of INDWELLING SIN which we ALL have and which same is OF THE DEVIL.

You want to make MANKIND responsible for the working of ADVERSITY in them? You do so as...well, need I say it? I don't hold that working against you as a child of God. It's certainly nothing new in the world of religions, particularly "christian" ones.

And for the following reasons, even the unregenerate are responsible to accept God's priceless gift of salvation:

Lucky you and your will to save yourself.

Although I heartily agree that the Prince of this World has "targeted" the Body of Christ for division and fragmentation unto complete powerlessness,

Uh hello, YES.

and has done a superb job of destroying it's unity almost, as you said, down to a person, I still heartily acknowledge and champion God's marvelous miracle of regeneration within the spirit of each and every believer.

I am not one to gather all that Christ did for me or you and hold that apart from any other person...Romans 2:1 advises that to be a very bad indicator...for us...or perhaps more accurately that which works IN US that does such things...check it out. "at whatever point..."(NIV) I believe that statement speaks to the workers of iniquity in our flesh...directly.

I also agree that for various reasons attributable to Satan's influence, this great inner spiritual resurrection (New Birth) accomplished by God in every believer is often suppressed to the point of being unrecognizable.

I am very cautions however of adopting any doctrine which deprives Man of his precious God-given gift of self-responsibility.

Your and my responsibility has not ridden us of the presence of indwelling sin, various possibilities of unbeliefs or garnered us "salvation." We as believers DO AS GOD HAS SLATED FOR US...and so do all the other people.

Yes, responsibility is a precious gift and a vital part of each man's identity and being. Without responsibility, Man is debased to the level of an animal and loses his identity and character as a human being.

No amount of "responsibility" can cause THE LOVE OF GOD to LIVE in our hearts. That is OF GOD and FROM GOD. I will not be standing on the podium for that anytime soon. It's just not ME, but Christ, and as such...kudos to HIM ALONE for "all things."

Basically, our God-given gift of responsibility to God and to those created in His image, is what Christ died to preserve on that bloody Roman cross. This might require some contemplation, but by His selfless sacrifice, Christ enabled us to keep our character as those created in the image of God.

Yet we cannot say we have NO SIN eh?

In division and separation there is a great granted gift of understanding...from Above...already written and determined to expose us to that reality, and if we do not see it, the reality of that did not disappear...for mankind.

For this reason I refuse any doctrine which deprives Man of his precious God-given gift of human responsibility. Any doctrine which espouses the idea that the Lord has abandoned Man to be an irresponsible victim of his circumstances, including the "circumstance" of Satan's presence, denigrates the Lord's character terribly.

However, I CERTAINLY don't believe that any failure to fulfill our God-given responsibility to love the Lord and our fellow humans should be, or will be, "punished" with eternal torment in unquenchable fire. Such a doctrine would make the Lord appear to be a vengeful, infantile Beast. Which is exactly what Satan wants us all to believe about the Lord!

I do believe that all unbelievers who have ever died will be incorruptibly resurrected by Jesus and will need a vivid self-revelation in the intense light and "fire" of the Holy Spirit as to their need for justification, regeneration, and a blessed spiritual "second death" of their old God-hating, self-dependent, self-glorifying unregenerate nature:

Apparently THE CROSS then did not achieve for them what THE CROSS achieved for "us?"

I do consider your bolded measures to be quite dripping with blame and accusations to your fellow man.

Sorry.

Love never failed.

 

[Arphaxad12]

Hi Again, Again, Again Squint

Again thanks for writing. I can't help noticing an apparent glaring contradiction in your messages to what some of the New Testament writers like Paul and Peter espouse strongly and repeatedly in their letters.

Specifically, the entire new testament "drips" with the concept that there is a TREMENDOUS distinction between the regenerate (born again) person and the "natural" (unregenerate) man.

Much of your writing seems to be in direct contradiction to this biblically well-documented idea. I quoted numerous verses in previous posts in this topic showing the clear distinction made by all the New Testament writers between "the natural man" and God's New Creation (born again holy children who are the very righteousness of God Himself in their spirit).

This idea of there being a clear distinction between "born again" and "natural" CERTAINLY didn't originate with myself. The bible tells me very clearly that the Lord created this distinction and has mentioned it very often in the New Testament so that we believers, for whatever reason, may realize it's existence.

This fact doesn't necessitate any judgment or denigration of any other human beings on our part AT ALL. It's simply something the Lord has done in all believers that he obviously wants us to know about.

We are not to be judges of sin or righteousness in others, that was Adam's downfall. I gave "the Apple" back to God many years ago. He's the ONLY one who can judge any human being correctly and justly.

Why does the Lord feel it's important for us to realize that we of the household of faith are new creatures, God's workmanship, the very righteousness of God in our spirit. Is it so that we can lord God's workmanship within ourselves over our fellow human beings, while judging them as inferior?

What did we do to brag about except receive a free gift of salvation from the Lord? Wouldn't it be incredibly stupid to lord our receiving of a free gift over another human being?:
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1Cr 15:45-49 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening (life-giving) spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy (Adam), such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly (Jesus), such are they also that are heavenly. (please note the clear distinction).

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy (were born "natural"), we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (be reborn into the lineage and image of the "Last Adam."
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My main pursuit (besides making a living) for the past 38 years has been laboring in God's Word and doctrine. I must say the Holy Spirit has directed and lighted the way through some very complex biblical concepts over those past 38 years of intense study. That being the case, I have to say that my main standard of reference must ALWAYS be the bible.

Therefore, without judging or denigrating ANY human being, regenerate or "natural," I must acknowledge and deal with the oft-mentioned biblical distinction between the "natural man" and God's New Creation.

Maybe my main area of "dealing" with this distinction should be creating a new self image within myself according to what's clearly written in the NT. "As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he." So maybe the MAiN focus on the concept of being a New Creation should not be on our fellow human beings AT ALL, but only on building up ourselves in our most holy faith which works by love. That way I can avoid the pitfall described in the following verse:
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Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
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I also did not write the following verses, the Holy Spirit did:
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2Pe 2:21-22 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
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Is the Lord being unkind and harsh in the above two verses?

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
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[squint]

Hi Again, Again, Again Squint

Again thanks for writing. I can't help noticing an apparent glaring contradiction in your messages to what some of the New Testament writers like Paul and Peter espouse strongly and repeatedly in their letters.

Specifically, the entire new testament "drips" with the concept that there is a TREMENDOUS distinction between the regenerate (born again) person and the "natural" (unregenerate) man.

Neither Jesus or the Apostles CONDEMNED our fellow man, even unbelievers. They are SLAVES of that which is upon them, INDWELLING SIN which same is OF THE DEVIL and which same WE ALSO have.

Speak evil of NO MAN...Jude 3:2
Call NO MAN common or unclean...Acts 10:17
Love your neighbor as yourSELF...(to many to cite)

Much of your writing seems to be in direct contradiction to this biblically well-documented idea.

I don't deny the working of faith in this present life in them that are so called. And also MOST who are called FALL into the snare of the DEVIL by blaming and accusing our fellow man. Where the Word is sown SATAN comes immediately to STEAL. Our freedom is quickly evaporated by that very real and constant working. That working is WITH US, that is IN OUR FLESH and MINDS.

I quoted numerous verses in previous posts in this topic showing the clear distinction made by all the New Testament writers between "the natural man" and God's New Creation (born again holy children who are the very righteousness of God Himself in their spirit).

Everyone who loves both KNOWS GOD and is BORN OF GOD...1 John 4:7

Now how many "steps" do you want someone to make? 4? 20? Countless?

Let's get real here. EVERYone who LOVES knows God and is BORN OF GOD. If one has JESUS painted across their lips and does NOT love, but instead BLAMES AND ACCUSES their fellow man, they are and remain SLAVES of that working of SIN in them. There are far more "natural men" in christiandom. Most of "us" are awash in blame and accusations against those we are to LOVE. We cannot LOVE and simultaneously BLAME AND ACCUSE our fellow man. Love just doesn't WORK that way. LOVE keeps NO RECORD of wrongs...so WHY are you? Love does NO ILL...

The "natural man" is such because he makes NO DISTINCTION between himself and what he is BOUND WITH. Yet that natural man is STILL Gods offspring. No one can take that "right" away from another person.

This idea of there being a clear distinction between "born again" and "natural" CERTAINLY didn't originate with myself. The bible tells me very clearly that the Lord created this distinction and has mentioned it very often in the New Testament so that we believers, for whatever reason, may realize it's existence.

We could get into an interesting dissection of "born again." For example, in John 3 Jesus spoke to Nicodemus about no one being able to enter heaven unless they are "born again." If you scroll down to vs. 12 you will find Jesus saying that He is speaking of "earthly things."

Now if ALL mankind are Gods offspring (they are) THEN WE CAME FROM GOD...Adam for example was GODS SON...Luke 3:38. All of Israel were taught that they are GODS CHILDREN...Deut. 14:1 and Psalm 82:6.

So do the math. All mankind are born OF GOD via their natural birth. They are BORN of the SPIRIT because "we" are GODS OFFSPRING and we are born THROUGH A WATER SAC.

Spirit/Water.

There are then SOME of us who are called unto CHRIST in this present life. We are called to FOLLOW HIM. That is an entirely DIFFERENT EVENT. "We" are called into a greater understanding and we are so called by HIS DIRECT INTERVENTION into our lives and given as a LIGHT in this life to our fellow man, to EXPRESS and LIVE and SPEAK of His Love for ALL.

Will all hear? No. Will all come? No, not in this life. But ALL will be SAVED, regardless of their responsibilities or beliefs because ALL serve God's Purposes for THEM.

Many are called to carry the most VILE THINGS to judgment in this present life. Look at Hitler for example. Hitler carried a MASS MURDERER to judgment in his body.

Now look at your fellow believers. Just LOOK at what "they" are carrying to judgment in THEIR BODIES AND MINDS....an anti-Christ spirit that hates their fellow man to the extent that they promote the eternal torture of our fellow man in FIRE. These then carry the WORST FORM of hatred to our fellow man...

and YOU think them special for that working, as being "born again?" I tell you from what I see that these are special in carrying that HATRED...to judgment. And I'm glad there's not many compared to the mass of humanity. And I'm GLAD they are "divided" as they are. We have seen the "workings" of these fear mongers in our past history. They didn't call it the dark ages for no reason. They KILLED each other in the name of God and they still do...in their HEARTS.

This fact doesn't necessitate any judgment or denigration of any other human beings on our part AT ALL. It's simply something the Lord has done in all believers that he obviously wants us to know about.

We are not to be judges of sin or righteousness in others, that was Adam's downfall. I gave "the Apple" back to God many years ago. He's the ONLY one who can judge any human being correctly and justly.

Again you blame ADAM...you see blame and accusations to our fellow man is the common theme isn't it? That is basically about all we hear from "christiandom." But you of course are OFF the hook...surely NOT like "Adam."

Here is a primer on the workings of the accuser in us:

The accuser will NEVER admit his presence in our flesh...and instead you will find this:

Blame and accuse: the flesh, the natural man, the Adamic man, the old man, the self, the ego, the carnal man, the old nature, the human nature....yada yada yada...blame and accuse the MAN anyway possible but NEVER, I repeat NEVER bring in or implicate SATAN or DEVILS who are with MAN. Get it?

I may simply suggest that we love our fellow man and get off their backs in the name of God.

enjoy!

squint

 

[Arphaxad12]

Hi Squint!

You wrote: "I tell you from what I see that these are special in carrying that HATRED...to judgment." (end quote).

Jesus' answer: Jhn 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

You seem intent on depriving Man of all accountability in favor of a "Devil made me do it" doctrine. According to what you seem to be saying, there was no reason for Christ to die on that bloody Roman cross at all since Man is just a helpless slave and not accountable to God for any of his actions.

A total lack of accountability only happens in Washington DC, but never with the Lord. Even the unregenerate always have a choice to come to the Lord if they so desire because Jesus "lighteth EVERY MAN that cometh into the world":
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Jhn 1:9-10 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
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And there is a vast difference between describing a situation of failed responsibility as set forth by God in the bible, and condemning our fellow human beings. The bible clearly says that:
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Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
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To affirm and agree with what the Lord has written in His bible is not condemning our fellow human beings. If you believe the bible unjustly and hatefully condemns and holds Man accountable for his errors, while calling him "a sow wallowing in the mire" and "a dog returning to his vomit," then you might need to talk with the Lord about it. I didn't write the bible.

I do agree that Satan is the PRINCE of this World, but Man was given dominion over all the Earth way back in Genesis. In my book that makes Man the KING of this world:
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Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (underlines and bolding are my own).
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So at this point I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the subject of Man being given all power over the enemy of his soul. Even the unregenerate have been "enlightened" by Jesus, so that even they, like the Gadarene demoniac, know deep down in their minds, who will "save their bacon." As Jesus promised, if they will simply ask they shall receive.

God is not going to invalidate the work of Christ on that bloody Roman cross by declaring: "It's OK everyone, you're off the hook, it's not your fault, you're not responsible, you were just slaves to sin, the Devil made you do it!"

Kingdom Days,
"Arph"
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[Arphaxad12]

Hi once again Squint!

WOW! nice ambiance! I haven't read all about the new features yet but it's looking good already!

Just a final word on condemning our fellow unregenerate human beings. Do you think David and Paul were guilty of doing that in these following verses:
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Psa 14:1-4 A Psalm of David: The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.


Rom 3:10-18 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.


Psa 50:16-19 But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth?

17 Seeing thou hatest instruction, and castest my words behind thee.

18 When thou sawest a thief, then thou consentedst with him, and hast been partaker with adulterers.

19 Thou givest thy mouth to evil, and thy tongue frameth deceit.

20 Thou sittest and speakest against thy brother; thou slanderest thine own mother's son.

21 These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes.

22 Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver.

23 Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me: and to him that ordereth his conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God.
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You also inadvertently misquoted: "Call NO MAN common or unclean...Acts 10:17"

I think you might have intended to quote:
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Act 10:15 And the voice spake unto him (Peter) again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

(underline, bolding, color emphasis and parentheses are my own).
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True, Christ's shed blood has cleansed and sanctified ALL God's creation, including ALL mankind. But there are those who, for reasons known only to God, reject this cleansing for themselves. And the Lord will not FORCE justification and spiritual resurrection on anyone who is not willing to receive it:
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Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

(underline and color emphasis is my own).
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Please note: "Of how much sorer punishment shall he be thought worthy" (Heb 10:29) is not at all the same as: "He shall be punished with much sorer punishment." Big difference!

The Lord is ALWAYS a perfect "gentleman," not an overbearing puppeteer just "pulling Pinocchio's strings." The Lord has done an incredible job of making Man a real live person with his own free will! : Dear Lord, How great thou art!

Kingdom Days,
Arphaxad
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[squint]

Hi once again Squint!

WOW! nice ambiance! I haven't read all about the new featuresyet but it's looking good already!

Just a final word on condemning our fellow unregenerate human beings. Do you think David and Paul were guilty of doing that in these following verses:

Not disagreeing with any scripture. Remember however in "hearing" those scriptures that they are NOT ALL directed to MAN ONLY.

So for example where you "think" you are hearing the condemnation of our fellow man, you ARE in fact hearing the condemnation of the DEVIL upon mankind, which is also "why" there are NONE that are "righteous" no not ONE. Keeping that simplicity in mind then MAY just allow you to NOT jump continually upon the backs of the SLAVES of SINS, but rather find compassion upon ALL of them because of "our" present condition being bound with "indwelling sin" which is OF THE DEVIL.

You also inadvertently misquoted: "Call NO MAN common or unclean...Acts 10:17"

I think you might have intended to quote:
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Act 10:15 And the voice spake unto him (Peter) again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

(underline, bolding, color emphasis and parentheses are my own).

Sorry. Meant:

Acts 10:
28And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

True, Christ's shed blood has cleansed and sanctified ALL God's creation, including ALL mankind. But

But? But?...the world of resistance to the fact is FULL of buts.

there are those who, for reasons known only to God, reject this cleansing for themselves.

I totally reject the "notion" that God in Christ is only made "effective" upon some blinded slave making it so by some perception of formula or contrived belief.

And the Lord will not FORCE justification and spiritual resurrection on anyone who is not willing to receive it

Says WHO? Do you really think Paul had a "choice" when he was STRUCK BLIND on the road to Damascus? God KNOWS the thoughts and intentions of the HEARTS of ALL mankind and CAN do whatever HE WILLS with same and He CAN do so because HE IS PERFECT.

Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Please note: "Of how much sorer punishment shall he be thought worthy" (Heb 10:29) is not at all the same as: "He shall be punished with much sorer punishment." Big difference!

Again, you read a scripture and you ONLY SEE YOUR FELLOW MAN and you are and perhaps will remain nearly TOTALLY INCOGNIZANT of the fact that MANKIND is NOT ALONE in their flesh or minds and that OTHER WORKING is often spoken to IN MANKIND that is NOT mankind. Get this simple principle and you may see scripture in a far and better light than what you currently promote upon your fellow man TO THEIR DETRIMENT.

The Lord is ALWAYS a perfect "gentleman," not an overbearing puppeteer just "pulling Pinocchio's strings." The Lord has done an incredible job of making Man a real live person with his own free will! : Dear Lord, How great thou art!

Kingdom Days,
Arphaxad

Free will for mankind is a fantasy of gigantic proportions. Both God and the Devil have open access to the hearts and minds of ALL mankind.

enjoy!

squint

 

[Arphaxad12]

Hi again Squint!

Here are a few more scriptures that "drip" with the responsibility expected from Man by the Lord:
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Act 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
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So, through the entire bible, from the obvious way that the Lord strongly holds Man accountable for himself, it certainly appears that the Lord expects sovereign and decisive action on Man's part in being responsible for his own actions and life:
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Jam 1:13-15 (KJV) Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

James 1:13-15 (Literal Greek)

13 Let no one going through a trial say that God is putting him through that trial. Because God cannot be put through any trial by evil, neither does He put any man through any trials by evil.
14 But every man brings on his own trials when he abandons reason and responds to his own proud desires.
15 Then as he implements those thoughtless, Satanically-inspired, counterfeit desires, the result is active rebellion against God. And as that active rebellion continues, it brings forth death. (underlines, bolding and color emphases are my own).
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So even if, as you say, Man is burdened and driven by indwelling sin for which the Prince of this World is somehow responsible, the "bottom line" is, that in the final analysis, Man himself, not Satan, is the one who suffers death for it. Hence the "net effect" is the same as if Man was totally responsible himself. How fair is that? The slave suffers death for being a slave!Lousy! Lousy! Unfair!!

Peace,
"Arph"
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[squint]

Hi again Squint!

Here are a few more scriptures that "drip" with the responsibility expected from Man by the Lord:
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The assumption you're making is that mankind is "responsible" for the workings of Satan or devils "in them." Very not true. All the "responsibility" of mankind will NEVER make the working of indwelling sin and evil present any less than WHAT THAT WORKING IS.

In the Law for example, we know that "IF" a man follows the Law, that lawlessness is both EMPOWERED and AROUSED. So, in relation to "being responsible" we can certainly see the result of being responsible to "follow the Law." Sin's works thereunder are AMPLIFIED so that IT'S presence "with us" in the flesh CANNOT BE DENIED.

It is at that point that we learn to understand "our" entire separation from THAT WORKING and we then understand many more scriptures as well, as prior noted.

Act 10:34-35 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

So, through the entire bible, from the obvious way that the Lord strongly holds Man accountable for himself, it certainly appears that the Lord expects sovereign and decisive action on Man's part in being responsible for his own actions and life:

Jam 1:13-15 (KJV) Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

James 1:13-15 (Literal Greek)

13 Let no one going through a trial say that God is putting him through that trial. Because God cannot be put through any trial by evil, neither does He put any man through any trials by evil.
14 But every man brings on his own trials when he abandons reason and responds to his own proud desires.
15 Then as he implements those thoughtless, Satanically-inspired, counterfeit desires, the result is active rebellion against God. And as that active rebellion continues, it brings forth death. (underlines, bolding and color emphases are my own).
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So even if, as you say, Man is burdened and driven by indwelling sin for which the Prince of this World is somehow responsible, the "bottom line" is, that in the final analysis, Man himself, not Satan, is the one who suffers death for it.

It is TRUE that the body dies "because of sins" indwelling presence. I really don't think God intended to leave any of us in this wet pile of compilation of dust for eternity. That is in part why we get a "new" and "incorruptible" body. That is in part why there was a "first Adam" and a "last Adam." But to say that mankind is "responsible" for SIN is only to make THE MAN the SINNER.

In James for example it is TRUE that the "man" is tempted by "his own lusts" BUT that is because the SIN INDWELLING any particular man or person IS THEIRS as it is after all "their flesh" wherein that working is contained.

We can see many dissections of the TWO types of workings of God, one with the man and one with the workings of God AGAINST sin indwelling the flesh, which same is OF THE DEVIL. A quick example is that we know that God is NOT The Author of "confusion" yet we find God CONFUSING the languages of the people at the Tower of Babel. We still see that same working of God today in keeping christiandom so utterly divided. That IS how God "deals" with that working and will continue to work AGAINST that working.

Hence the "net effect" is the same as if Man was totally responsible himself. How fair is that? The slave suffers death for being a slave!Lousy! Lousy! Unfair!!

God absolutely MEANT for His offspring to be bound in this present life with that working OR it wouldn't exist. We were ALL meant to suffer under the effects of SIN which same is OF THE DEVIL. Fair you say? Perhaps we do learn the reality of LONG SUFFERING and DIVINE MERCY when we suffer in such manners as ALL MANKIND DOES.

Mankind IS the recipient of God's ETERNAL LOVE, ETERNAL MERCY etc.

Devils ARE NOT going to have that pleasure when this present age is wrapped up. They will be permanently set aside in the infamous LAKE, and good riddance to them.

enjoy!

squint

 

[Arphaxad12]

Hello again Squint!

I am tremendously impressed and greatly amazed with what you wrote here: "In the Law for example, we know that "IF" a man follows the Law, that lawlessness is both EMPOWERED and AROUSED. So, in relation to "being responsible" we can certainly see the result of being responsible to "follow the Law." Sin's works thereunder are AMPLIFIED so that IT'S presence "with us" in the flesh CANNOT BE DENIED. (end quote).

This understanding of the working of the Law within Man is almost non-existent in the Body of Christ! Unfortunately though, even though your understanding of the Law's power to bring out Man's adopted inner rebellion against the Lord is most surprising, you seem to persistently believe this working of the Law within Man is the "end of the story," when indeed it's only HALF "the story." To complete "the story," Paul clearly offers the following God-given remedy for ALL the conditions you've described so far, including Man condemning his fellow human beings:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Gal 5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

1Cr 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1Cr 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient (beneficial): all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Col 2:10-14 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands (water baptism), in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

3 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened (made alive) together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out (paying for) the handwriting of ordinances (the Law) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


Rom 6:1-4 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Rom 6:6-7 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

(underlines, parentheses, bolding and color emphases are my own).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

My heartiest and most sincere congratulations to you on grasping a significant part of Paul's esoteric explanation of the Gospel of Christ. But I certify you that there is much more yet to be gained from praying and contemplating the verses about no one being able to transgress a Law that has already been fully paid for by Christ being done right from the foundation of the world. Also, I myself am still contemplating: "our old man is crucified with Him that the body of sin might be destroyed. I think it means that in water baptism the Lord applies the power of Christ's destruction of the condemning power of the Law to the old presumptuous "judge of good and evil" within ourselves, thus destroying "the body of sin" (the "God-wannabe" within us) forever. This is only possible because Christ put the means of judging good and evil (the Law) to death on His cross. What a great gift!

Believe me! Paul's highly esoteric explanations of the gospel will require much contemplation and assistance by the Holy Spirit to be fully understood.

Also PLEASE discard your conception of the meaning of "the flesh."

I have offered many verses from God's Word showing that biblically speaking, "the flesh" does NOT refer to physical protoplasm, but rather has a very SPIRITUAL meaning having absolutely nothing to do with out physical bodies.

Seeing you have done marvelously in grasping the working of God's fiery Law within the psyche of Man as being like "a red flag waved in front of a bull," I urge you not to stop there. There is much more to be understood in a remedial sense. I suggest moving on past Roman's 7 to Romans 8. And may the Lord bless and assist all of us in bringing the full knowledge and power of His Gospel into our lives.

Best Blessings,
"Arph
-----------

 

[squint]

Hello again Squint!

I am tremendously impressed and greatly amazed with what you wrote here: "In the Law for example, we know that "IF" a man follows the Law, that lawlessness is both EMPOWERED and AROUSED. So, in relation to "being responsible" we can certainly see the result of being responsible to "follow the Law." Sin's works thereunder are AMPLIFIED so that IT'S presence "with us" in the flesh CANNOT BE DENIED. (end quote).

This understanding of the working of the Law within Man is almost non-existent in the Body of Christ!

Seldom taught but the facts are there in text for "our eye" to see and the resistors in our flesh's eye to RESIST... That again is a big part of the picture. So where many will say, "the Law is ONLY to man" that is just SO not true. The Law was ALWAYS intended to be against LAWLESSNESS IN THE FLESH in the form of THE DEVIL's workings IN MAN.

If God allows any believers to SEE THIS FACT, they quickly come to a far better understanding of "the Law" and are then not so quick to judge and condemn their fellow man, as they WILL eventually move to LOVE their fellow man and USE the "Law" to utterly CONDEMN the "real" workers of iniquity. The Law still works exceptionally well in this regard...and Love does arouse that resistance EVEN MORE.

You of all people, believing in the (ultimate) reconciliation of ALL MANKIND notwithstanding our minor differences of fact DO SEE that resistance...come OUT of our fellow man to RESIST THAT LOVE OF GOD most vehemently. Where we slice apart is that I do not blame my fellow man, no not one believer FOR that working because I KNOW who that voice is from and it's NOT THEM. We do speak with devils in men daily when we pick up God's Words of LOVE to our fellow man and RESISTANCE to the DEVIL....dig?

Unfortunately though, even though your understanding of the Law's power to bring out Man's adopted inner rebellion against the Lord is most surprising, you seem to persistently believe this working of the Law within Man is the "end of the story,"

Ah, now don't go putting words in my mouth. I understand that the workings of lawlessness DO WHAT THEY DO and the workings of the children of God do what they do and NARY the twain will meet...cause GOD has set them firmly APART.

That is why we DO NOT COUNT sins against our fellow man YET we CAN count them against the DEVIL in man. A very distinct difference leaving the ONE intact and the OTHER condemned. IF you are "led" to read scriptures in this manner His Words SPRING to Life and they SPRING also unto DEATH. Examples upon request...

when indeed it's only HALF "the story." To complete "the story," Paul clearly offers the following God-given remedy for ALL the conditions you've described so far, including Man condemning his fellow human beings:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Gal 5:16 [This] I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

1Cr 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1Cr 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient (beneficial): all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Col 2:10-14 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands (water baptism), in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

3 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened (made alive) together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out (paying for) the handwriting of ordinances (the Law) that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


Rom 6:1-4 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Rom 6:6-7 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

(underlines, parentheses, bolding and color emphases are my own).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I heartily agree with EVERY scripture, particularly when RIGHTLY DIVIDED...that is how I recognize my "true" brethren...by their LOVE for ALL mankind and their OPEN OPPOSITION to the DEVILS in man which sometimes transpires nearly line upon line in exchange....WE seek our "gems" our "fellows" of mankind...and we "attack" that which BINDS them that is NOT THEM. If you hear this call you will REAP simply because it's HIS TRUTH at work "through us."

My heartiest and most sincere congratulations to you on grasping a significant part of Paul's esoteric explanation of the Gospel of Christ. But I certify you that there is much more yet to be gained from praying and contemplating the verses about no one being able to transgress a Law that has already been fully paid for by Christ

I seek to bring NONE of mankind "under the Law." But there is great use and understanding in seeing it in action.

Mankind is and was always MEANT for God's Love in and through CHRIST JESUS. That is what we are to BRING in us, from our hearts to ALL of them...

Yet in that walk we will also find great resistance because the CAPTORS do not and will not "let their people go." (analogy noted.)

being done right from the foundation of the world. Also, I myself am still contemplating: "our old man is crucified with Him that the body of sin might be destroyed. I think it means that in water baptism the Lord applies the power of Christ's destruction of the condemning power of the Law to the old presumptuous "judge of good and evil" within ourselves, thus destroying "the body of sin" (the "God-wannabe" within us) forever.

The only "escape" available is through the understandings of SEPARATION. We cannot say we have "no sin" so NO...sin indwelling us is NOT destroyed. We are 'DIVIDED' from it and it's "power" but that "power" never stops "trying." Everytime we want to do good, we will find the fact of EVIL PRESENT with us just as Paul found, and Paul never denied his factual condition. To do so is to deceive ourselves....and THEN The Truth is NOT in us. To live IN TRUTH one must live IN TRUTH even if the "facts" are not very pleasant...

This is only possible because Christ put the means of judging good and evil (the Law) to death on His cross. What a great gift!

Believe me! Paul's highly esoteric explanations of the gospel will require much contemplation and assistance by the Holy Spirit to be fully understood.

Also PLEASE discard your conception of the meaning of "the flesh."

I blame "no flesh." God has the entirety of the workings of this present world quite firmly intact. Whoever HE decides to RAISE UP in a man is HIS BUSINESS. In some He will raise a PHAROAH or an ESAU...figuratively HATED by God, yet in that SAME LUMP there is beyond any doubt also a VESSEL OF HONOR...who is being terrorized when the other vessel is "in charge." God "raised" many enemies against ISRAEL and He continues to do so to this day to raise enemies to BELIEVERS. It COMES with the "territory."

I have offered many verses from God's Word showing that biblically speaking, "the flesh" does NOT refer to physical protoplasm, but rather has a very SPIRITUAL meaning having absolutely nothing to do with out physical bodies.

Blame the flesh all you want. It's what's "in" the flesh that is the cause...what is on the "inside" of the CUP... One does not WASH AWAY dirt when one denies they have any. When we are "baptised" with the WATER of the WORD IMMERSION...and done PHYSICALLY only as AN OUTWARD recognition, we understand that WE as GOD'S CHILDREN come out FOREVER CLEANsed...

Seeing you have done marvelously in grasping the working of God's fiery Law within the psyche of Man as being like "a red flag waved in front of a bull," I urge you not to stop there. There is much more to be understood in a remedial sense. I suggest moving on past Roman's 7 to Romans 8. And may the Lord bless and assist all of us in bringing the full knowledge and power of His Gospel into our lives.

Best Blessings,
"Arph

I am no stanger to the Words of our Lord and His Apostles, having spent many decades enraptured therein...and walking out my life in that leading.

enjoy!

squint

 

[Arphaxad12]

Hi again Squint!

Here are just a couple of interesting alternate interpretations of two of the verses you referred to:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. (underline, bolding, color and size emphasis are my own).
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The evil that is present with anyone who would themselves "do good" is that in order to "do good," one must put themselves under the Law to establish what "doing good" is. And by thus using the Law to become a judge of what "good" is, evil is automatically present with us. The Judging of ANY human being, including ourselves, is a prerogative that belongs only to God. Without using the Law in some way or another, neither "doing good" nor "doing evil" is even possible! N'est pas?

The other verse you mentioned a couple of times was:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (underline, bolding, color and size emphasis are my own).
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The same basic principle applies here as in: "when I would do good." That principle is that we, using the Law, presumptuously usurp the Lord's prerogative to be the only judge of the good and evil status of all men, including ourselves!

Here's another interesting verse I noticed in my recent searching:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (underline, bolding, size and color emphasis are my own).
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just so I can clearly understand "where you're coming from," are you saying that no man has ever sinned because indwelling sin (the Devil within all men) is responsible for sin and not men themselves?

If so, that would let Adam "off the hook." Because in eating the supposedly "forbidden" fruit, it was the indwelling sin that God had supposedly placed within Adam that caused him to rebel against God rather than Adam himself. So actually, Adam never sinned at all! It was indwelling sin (the Devil) that was responsible for Adam rebelling against the Lord's instruction and thus being cast out of the Garden of Eden?:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Gen 3:9-19 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this [that] thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee (the Devil) and the woman (the Church), and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

(underlines, bolding and color emphases are my own).
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wonder WHY Adam and Eve didn't confess their mistake and ask for the Lord's unending infinite mercy to undo the problem? This is especially puzzling seeing that Christ had already "Blotted out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross," thus cleansing and sanctifying God's entire creation, including the curse on the Earth, even before Adam was ever created.

Squint, am I finally getting down to the "bedrock" of truth here?

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
-----------

 

[squint]

Hi again Squint!

Here are just a couple of interesting alternate interpretations of two of the verses you referred to:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. (underline, bolding, color and size emphasis are my own).
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The evil that is present with anyone who would themselves "do good" is that in order to "do good," one must put themselves under the Law to establish what "doing good" is.

Whatever gave you that I dea? "The Law" is many things. It is 'spiritual' to those who 'hear' it in that way. It is also AGAINST lawlessness, to reveal it, to even empower it. The Law is God's Word(s.) And yes, His Word does make us tremble for the things which we are presently bound with. It was "those things" in mankind that made them fear and tremble at the mount and it is those things 'in us' with whom we also presently work out our own salvation.

I, as God's child do not fear the Law. But there are things in my flesh that DO fear, and rightfully so, for that LAW was meant to SHUT THEM UP and to MAKE THEM GUILTY before God and THE LAW does so to this day.

And by thus using the Law to become a judge of what "good" is, evil is automatically present with us. The Judging of ANY human being, including ourselves, is a prerogative that belongs only to God. Without using the Law in some way or another, neither "doing good" nor "doing evil" is even possible! N'est pas?

Buy what you will. There is no "law" that contains or conveys LIFE. Though the Law was ordained to LIFE, Paul found it brought DEATH. "The Letter" is MEANT to KILL and KILL it does and KILL it will. I do not fear that working, but that which is in me DOES.

The other verse you mentioned a couple of times was:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (underline, bolding, color and size emphasis are my own).
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The same basic principle applies here as in: "when I would do good." That principle is that we, using the Law, presumptuously usurp the Lord's prerogative to be the only judge of the good and evil status of all men, including ourselves!

My friend, you only see WE, ME and YOUR FELLOW MAN in these equations, and every word that you write brings ONLY WE, ME and YOUR FELLOW MAN to the table for viewing.

The Word tells me that we are not alone in the flesh. So bring that which is in YOU to the table, and perhaps the real "we" will no longer have any place to hide, eh? Til then I saw and continue to see "it" scurrying. I want my brother in Truth and it is TO THAT MAN that I call and seek. The other I could care less about.

Here's another interesting verse I noticed in my recent searching:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (underline, bolding, size and color emphasis are my own).
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just so I can clearly understand "where you're coming from," are you saying that no man has ever sinned because indwelling sin (the Devil within all men) is responsible for sin and not men themselves?

Ah, the light makes a small entry...pleasant. Very pleasant. When the MAN OF GOD wants to share the measure of perfect with me, perhaps we will also then be a comfort to many of our fellow mankind?

If so, that would let Adam "off the hook." Because in eating the supposedly "forbidden" fruit, it was the indwelling sin that God had supposedly placed within Adam that caused him to rebel against God rather than Adam himself.

God bound "all men" with disobedience. Adam was "no" exception and in that understanding I certainly have NO CAUSE to "blame and accuse" Adam now DO I? Do YOU? Would that which is IN YOU like to HEAP UP A PILE of BLAME and ACCUSATIONS upon ADAM or upon CAIN or upon ANY of our fellow man? lol. That old story is as old as creation and "that working" has been numbered, weighed and found wanting in the balance.

So actually, Adam never sinned at all!

Before you leap me off a cliff of your own making, let's be clear that whatever "sin" ENTERED Adam was HIS because it was HIS FLESH...just as the burdens YOU or any of our other fellow man HAVE SIN it is "ours" as it inhabits OUR flesh. Were we 'alone' you'd have a point.

It was indwelling sin (the Devil) that was responsible for Adam rebelling against the Lord's instruction and thus being cast out of the Garden of Eden?:

A simple lesson really:

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because allsinned"

Adam did not ENTER himself. His FLESH including his MIND was made 'SUBJECT TO' death, yes, death, even in the FIRST COMMAND from God that CONVEYED that DEATH upon Adam. "Thou shalt NOT-or DIE."

When the command came...read all about it in Romans 7, and this working STILL transpires to this day:
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Paul did not say "I was" sold, but I AM sold UNDER sin. You and I and every person of mankind is NO DIFFERENT. We are ALL sold UNDER sin in this present world no matter how many forms of glossalalia are painted over the facts. I think I've see just about every form of EVASION that has been sold to mankind on this matter.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Gen 3:9-19 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest

to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this [that] thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee (the Devil) and the woman (the Church), and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

(underlines, bolding and color emphases are my own).
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I wonder WHY Adam and Eve didn't confess their mistake and ask for the Lord's unending infinite mercy to undo the problem?

I could write much here, but I will ask you O child of God if either Adam or Eve ever stopped being God's children? If you say NO you would say well. Now, knowing this, how much do you want to SLUR them? Or perhaps you could simply look upon their BINDING and see THE PROBLEM they had "in the flesh" as being NO LONGER I, just as Paul described his own indwelling sin.

Even Paul saw only in part and in darkness. THAT BINDING that is upon is all is the CAUSE... and not your fellow man....

Are you hearing the little bells and seeing the fruits at the bottom hem of your garment yet?

This is especially puzzling seeing that Christ had already "Blotted out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross," thus cleansing and sanctifying God's entire creation, including the curse on the Earth, even before Adam was ever created.

Indeed. Sins are not NOR WERE THEY EVER counted against MANKIND-God's OFFSPRING...

SINS are counted however AGAINST the devil and his messengers...

Scripture is not so easy as to read and see only one party. While there is A TRUTH for God's offspring/children there is also another SIMULTANEOUS TRUTH that is against THE DEVIL in that same STROKE...

Squint, am I finally getting down to the "bedrock" of truth here?

Best Blessings,
"Arph"

You are getting MIGHTY close there friend....

IF our call is to LOVE our neighbors as OURselves, then it is imperitive to put aside JUDGMENT unto them and put that judgment where it belongs...

When you see this, you will hear your enemies speak from the mouth of your fellow man...even as it scurries away...trying to carry you off presently...

I believe however that God may have greater things in mind for YOU...so I have made my appeal...to Him. Let's see what happens?

enjoy!

squint

 

[Arphaxad12]

Hello Again Squint! (Davis-Esquire?)

You wrote: "Indeed. Sins are not NOR WERE THEY EVER counted against MANKIND-God's OFFSPRING..." (end quote).

Amazing! In the past 8 years of writing on Christian websites I have NEVER seen this revelation expressed by anyone except myself (no credit to me).

This is a true "foundation stone" of the Gospel. In short, sin always was a "dead horse" right from the foundation of the world. If it hadn't been paid for and "neutralized" by Christ right from the beginning, there would be no human race at all, because: "The wages of sin is death."

Also, I need to ask if you espouse Gnosticism at all in your theology? I ask this question because of your frequent references to "evil flesh." "Evil flesh" is a basic principle of Gnosticism, hence I thought you might be a believer in Gnosticism.

Also, if I'm not being too nosy, could you please comment on the necessity of Christ suffering and dying an unimaginably agonizing death on a bloody Roman cross? And did Christ's death and resurrection provide any personal benefits for yourself? Healing, justification, regeneration, righteousness?

So far in our writing we seemingly have totally focused only on the problem(s) that created the mess mankind is now in. Don’t you think we should focus a bit on the abundant remedies the Lord has provided through Christ?

I believe it’s safe to say that Enoch and Elijah, having completely escaped the physical grave, provide the ultimate example of what is possible to those who decide to appropriate for themselves ALL the remedies the lord has provided for mankind:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mat 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction (death and resurrection), and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life (without physical death), and few there be that find it.

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation (the generation that sees the things Jesus prophesies) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

(underlines, parentheses, bolding, size and color emphases are my own)
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks,
"Arph"
--------

 

[squint]

Hello Again Squint! (Davis-Esquire?)

You wrote: "Indeed. Sins are not NOR WERE THEY EVER counted against MANKIND-God's OFFSPRING..." (end quote).

Amazing! In the past 8 years of writing on Christian websites I have NEVER seen this revelation expressed by anyone except myself (no credit to me).

This is a true "foundation stone" of the Gospel. In short, sin always was a "dead horse" right from the foundation of the world. If it hadn't been paid for and "neutralized" by Christ right from the beginning, there would be no human race at all, because: "The wages of sin is death."

Also, I need to ask if you espouse Gnosticism at all in your theology? I ask this question because of your frequent references to "evil flesh." "Evil flesh" is a basic principle of Gnosticism, hence I thought you might be a believer in Gnosticism.

First, I am not either of the ones you asked with my name.
If you review our posting together, I believe you will find that I specifically disclaimed that the flesh or matter itself is evil, so NO, I am adamantly NOT gnostic in understandings, particularly as it relates to "matter is evil" and "only spirit is pure." In the Hands of The Master, ALL THINGS are Perfect, even though some things "used in the process" may be discarded.

Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect

2 Samuel 22:31
As for God, his way is perfect

In applications then, we may observe that "Lucifer" was perfect with the big axiom of "in all his ways." Lucifer then is a PERFECT DEVIL in "all his ways" but of course that is not the same as the Perfection of God eh? Words are a wonderous thing.

Also, if I'm not being too nosy, could you please comment on the necessity of Christ suffering and dying an unimaginably agonizing death on a bloody Roman cross?

The "mystery of Godliness" is a great conversation. Perhaps we can enjoy that together in another thread. But in short, God can and does allow "all things." He does so to "judge" and to "test" what is worthy to retain "forever." The worthy things of eternity are therefore enhanced and grown...and expand. I do not believe God is "stagnant" even though He changes not. A part of the essence of "eternity" would to me seem to be endless in nature, meaning without border, ending or binding...therefore equating to some type of "expansion" on levels we simply do not and cannot comprehend.

And did Christ's death and resurrection provide any personal benefits for yourself? Healing, justification, regeneration, righteousness?

God Is Love. Do not ask me how He reached or touched me with that as I do not know. I only know that I read His Word and THEN His Love did touch me within and became a very real and tangible experience for me that has not stopped since. I believe that this is known as a specific call and it was not of me. I believe ALL MANKIND are in need of His Love just because that is where we all came from. We are ALL after ALL, His offspring. It is a most natural thing to "seek." Something that has been placed in ALL of us to a certain degree.

So far in our writing we seemingly have totally focused only on the problem(s) that created the mess mankind is now in.

Who says it's a mess? God's strength is perfected IN WEAKNESS. That's part of the deal is it not?

Don’t you think we should focus a bit on the abundant remedies the Lord has provided through Christ?

And again, Light shines in darkness. This is the command of The Lord. We cannot change what He has wrought and planned. It is God Himself who has formed and fashioned every working and He is in charge and in control. Of that I have no doubts any longer, even though I have the flashing of some form of participation. I don't really understand these things and perhaps never will. Some, Calvinists for example, try to pin these things down but I don't think the work of God is meant to be pinned by any but Him. I may for example find a strong hint of freewillism in your writings from the "responsibility portions" but I reject that notion entirely, just as I reject Calvin predeterminism. We simply canNOT put a collar on the workings of God. He is far beyond the pinning, and left the cross some time ago.

I believe it’s safe to say that Enoch and Elijah, having completely escaped the physical grave, provide the ultimate example of what is possible to those who decide to appropriate for themselves ALL the remedies the lord has provided for mankind:

Appropriate what you will. God is beyond appropriation. You cannot by your will put a collar around Him or His work, and doing so is just another folly and yet another reflection of a vastly inferior imagination. How is it that you think we have become ALL so divided? Nearly all believers have some set "form" of "image" of what they "think" is transpiring with God, and therefore they and even we bow to some conjure or fashion when the reality is we are all just flashing some vastly inferior reflection of God of our own making, nearly akin to idol worship when we do such things. I sincerely try to not conjure up any "image" of God. That spoils God down to my own conjuring. You speak of Elijah or Enoch, and yes, they were "caught up" just as Paul "sought" the resurrection while still alive. Who of us does not yearn and groan for our heavenly clothing? That too is part of the deal of desire. We do DESIRE HIM and that yearning was placed in us by HIM. So what do I make of Enoch or Elijah...again, a very in depth conversation. There are many things to see and handle there.


The Jews to this day have a very good understanding of the sanctity of Eternal God without Image or boundry. It's a respect of the Eternal One.

Mat 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction (death and resurrection), and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life (without physical death), and few there be that find it.

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation (the generation that sees the things Jesus prophesies) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

(underlines, parentheses, bolding, size and color emphases are my own)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks,
"Arph"

I do appreciate your "disclaimers..."

Here is what Paul has taught me about understandings with other "believers:"

2 Cor. 11:
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

I do know that IF I bring YOU the measure of Perfection, that will be returned to me, and THAT is an endless reward.

I will not provide that to what you or I may be presently bound with however....

enjoy!

squint

 

[Arphaxad12]

Hi again Squint!

Re: "conjuring up an image of God." Unfortunately, most believers have conjured up an image alright. But it's an image of the (imaginary) Beast that was and is not (real, and yet is (real in peoples imaginations). Jephthah sacrificing his only daughter to "god" in the book of Judges was a perfect but horribly sad example of a man AND his daughter with a greatly corrupted "image" of God and what He expects from Man.

Anyway, it seems that you have succeeded in remaining staunchly "on topic" here, scrupulously avoiding the many related ideas I mentioned such as "the remedies" God has provided for the many problems encountered by mankind. Even though Man may choose not to appropriate said remedies, it can never be said that the Lord didn't provide them. He always fulfills His promised responsibilities. And WHY would the Lord provide remedies at such an incalculable cost for problems He created in the first place? Is the Lord divided against himself?

I'm also VERY surprised at the "short shrift" you gave to my questions about the necessity for Christ's death and the blessings that you personally received from it.

Generally speaking, it seems to me that your theology provides an excellent "escape" from the incessant problem of tormenting self-judgment and the resultant guilt constantly experienced by most of Mankind. Even Paul could not escape his intense guilt over his persecution of the early Church, including his standing by and watching and hearing Steven being pelted, bloodied and killed with stones thrown by those who chose to respond to the ubiquitous intense influence of the former Prince of this World.

So it appears that Christ has been of no advantage to you, seeing you have another method of assuaging guilt by espousing a "Devil made me do it" doctrine. This doctrine might be very helpful in treating certain military personnel who are experiencing intense guilt over life-taking battlefield experiences.

The only problem is it would require acknowledgment and belief in a "spiritual world," including Satan. Obviously not all military personnel would go along with this doctrine, guilt-obliterating as it might be. But at least they wouldn't have to accept Christ's atonement. Doing that might just make the guilt WORSE unless it was "mixed" with humility!

However, not to worry. For "we shall ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ" where every man shall "bear his OWN burden:"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

2Cr 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Gal 6:1-5 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

5 For every man shall bear his own burden.

(underlines, bolding and color emphases are my own).
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kingdom Days,
Arphaxad
-------------

 

[squint]

Hi again Squint!

Re: "conjuring up an image of God." Unfortunately, most believers have conjured up an image alright. But it's an image of the (imaginary) Beast that was and is not (real, and yet is (real in peoples imaginations). Jephthah sacrificing his only daughter to "god" in the book of Judges was a perfect but horribly sad example of a man AND his daughter with a greatly corrupted "image" of God and what He expects from Man.

God destroying the entirety of mankind via flood was similar, as well as the perhaps hundreds of thousands of other examples of God's involvment in the destruction of mankind.

Nothing in any case happens apart from God's Will, and that includes sending His offspring OUT of the flesh with which we are bound.

Anyway, it seems that you have succeeded in remaining staunchly "on topic" here, scrupulously avoiding the many related ideas I mentioned such as "the remedies" God has provided for the many problems encountered by mankind.

Remedies? How much better remedy is there than to be measured PERFECT? God does NOT count sins against mankind...and saves them ALL and ENTIRELY.

Even though Man may choose not to appropriate said remedies, it can never be said that the Lord didn't provide them.

We drew the line here already. You want to blame man for "choice." I'm just not going there. We know that if anyone does not believe, it is because the "god of this world" has blinded them. Why then would you BYPASS that fact and just heap BLAME upon the choice of the slave? If God really wanted to reach that slave, He will. And He will save them in any case.

He always fulfills His promised responsibilities. And WHY would the Lord provide remedies at such an incalculable cost for problems He created in the first place? Is the Lord divided against himself?

See prior note on allowance and testing of "all things" which same ALL THINGS were made for His Pleasure and for all things there are NO exceptions.

I'm also VERY surprised at the "short shrift" you gave to my questions about the necessity for Christ's death and the blessings that you personally received from it.

Generally speaking, it seems to me that your theology provides an excellent "escape" from the incessant problem of tormenting self-judgment and the resultant guilt constantly experienced by most of Mankind.

I do consider the conveyance of separation from what we are bound with to be a great understanding. Still doesn't make the attachment go away though eh? And it would seem to me that is what you are looking for, and so am I btw...and that will come soon enough for us individually when we split from this flesh. We were never promised sinless flesh or a mind free of influences by either God or the devil.

Even Paul could not escape his intense guilt over his persecution of the early Church, including his standing by and watching and hearing Steven being pelted, bloodied and killed with stones thrown by those who chose to respond to the ubiquitous intense influence of the former Prince of this World.

Again you simply blame the blinded slaves. The captives. Go read about the Apostles and their FORETOLD abandonment of Jesus, Peter's denial, Judas' betrayal...all told in "advance" of their "choices." And guess what? God probably KNOWS the choices the the EVIL IN MEN will make and WE DON'T. I still find no cause to heap up various forms of blame and accusations or to count sins against mankind.

Yes, I am very sure Paul, looking back and seeing what a pathetic slave he really was was very sad about that action, just as we should be when we are "slaves" even to the mere thoughts of sin...I do believe Paul "knew" why and what transpired in him, and still could, AS THAT WORKING. So yes, as believers we do have that stiving, particularly when WORD is applied.

So it appears that Christ has been of no advantage to you, seeing you have another method of assuaging guilt by espousing a "Devil made me do it" doctrine.

Well, and again, unfortunately you still dragged ME into your blame and accusation formulas, just as so many repeatedly DO. No, the DEVIL did not make YOU or ME do anything. THE DEVIL in our flesh did it. Get it yet, after HOW many pages? You see the "temptation" is to PERPETUALLY BLAME AND ACCUSE your fellow man in "various forms" and that is again what you just did, and what you also do with the "choices" doctrines. These are all just various forms of the working of darkness in the flesh.

I don't blame you as a child of God for doing that working.

This doctrine might be very helpful in treating certain military personnel who are experiencing intense guilt over life-taking battlefield experiences.

Spin it however it is placed into your head. The principle involved will not change. We are to LOVE our fellow man as ourselves, and that will not be done via BLAME AND ACCUSATIONS.

The only problem is it would require acknowledgment and belief in a "spiritual world," including Satan. Obviously not all military personnel would go along with this doctrine, guilt-obliterating as it might be. But at least they wouldn't have to accept Christ's atonement. Doing that might just make the guilt WORSE unless it was "mixed" with humility!

Never said the world of Satan was "spiritual." There is an anti-spiritual world as well, and I don't expect blinded slaves to be perceiving of that world, it's works or it's workers...

So when you figure out their world, you may also see the ALL MEN of that world who HATE YOU and the WORLD that hates you...and you will see them OVERLAPPED upon your fellow man...and maybe then you actually COULD love your neighbors as yourself and quit blaming them?

However, not to worry. For "we shall ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ" where every man shall "bear his OWN burden:"

Even "Lucifer" was called "a man." So it is with the "man of sin." Man is a multifunctional term in scripture that can be applied to more than just "man." So it is also with the term angel.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

2Cr 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Gal 6:1-5 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual,restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

5 For every man shall bear his own burden.

(underlines, bolding and color emphases are my own).
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kingdom Days,
Arphaxad
------------

Won't be disagreeing with any scripture anytime soon. The difficulties however arise when you read them and you only see one party when that is CLEARLY not the case with any "man." With such a view I wouldn't expect you to see beyond them to the real culprits, and perhaps you are not meant to see that way. That may be a part of your burden. Kudo's for carrying it to judgment!

enjoy!

squint

 

[Arphaxad12]

Hi Squint!

How are things in the "Great White North?" You should be getting a hint of warm weather up there pretty soon.

I think you're confusing me with the one who wrote the bible. The bible veritably "drips with the idea of Man being held to God-given responsibility and choice on almost every page.

You write as though I'm the one who wrote God's Word which speaks of the evil of the "natural man" more often than I would even try to quote. Did I write the following verses and a thousand similar?:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rom 1:18-24 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:


Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Rom 3:13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:

Rom 3:14 Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:

Rom 3:15 Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:

Rom 3:16 Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:

Rom 3:17 And the way of peace have they not known:

Rom 3:18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, it appears that the Lord himself blames and accuses "the slaves" (as you persist in calling them). You continuously speak of the ignorance and helplessness of "the slaves" In spite of the fact that the bible says that "Christ lighteth EVERY MAN that cometh into the world." Maybe Christ didn't do a thorough job?

By the way, you might like the following admonition. It "exudes" choice and the resultant excellent blessings of a peaceful life. Here in the U.S., we'd surely better follow this before the November elections. I sure hope it includes lower gas prices!:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Ti 2:1-3 exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

(underlines, bolding and color emphases are my own).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Some verses that pose very interesting questions:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Tim 2:4-6 (God our Saviour) will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

(underlines, parentheses, bolding and color emphases are my own).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: the verses just above:
Saved from what? Come to repentance from what? Ransom from what? Why a mediator? Not willing that any should perish? What does "perish" mean in 2 Peter 3:9?

Here are some other verses showing Man's God-given rulership over the entire Earth, including over himself:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gen 1:26-28 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (including themselves).

(underlines, parentheses, bolding and color emphases are my own).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So obviously, God gave Man dominion "over every living thing that moveth upon the Earth." And since Man is a living thing that moveth upon the Earth, Man was also obviously given dominion over himself!

As all through the entire bible, please note the choices man is given in the following verses:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pro 5:1-5 My son, attend unto my wisdom, and bow thine ear to my understanding:

2 That thou mayest regard discretion, and that thy lips may keep knowledge.

3 For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil:

4 But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a twoedged sword.

5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And please don't think "a strange woman" mentioned in the verses just above is ONLY a literal woman.

Sinning is thinning,
Arphaxad
--------------

 

[squint]

Hi Squint!

How are things in the "Great White North?" You should be getting a hint of warm weather up there pretty soon.

Actually I live in Denver, so the weather ain't too bad here compared to further north. I did grow up just south of the Canadian border, so am very familiar with bitter cold...

I think you're confusing me with the one who wrote the bible. The bible veritably "drips with the idea of Man being held to God-given responsibility and choice on almost every page.

You write as though I'm the one who wrote God's Word which speaks of the evil of the "natural man" more often than I would even try to quote. Did I write the following verses and a thousand similar?:

Perhaps we as believers choice should be to love our fellow man as ourselves, SEE that the sin indwelling US and THEM is not us, and believe then both sides of the ledger of scriptures?

All judgement and damnation scriptures and scriptures admonishing against sin and it's works and workers ARE true, fully...and yet the Love of God toward all men REMAINS inviolate.

In every lump there is both a vessel of honor, one who is pure in God's Eyes, and a vessel of dishonor who is NOT. I look then at NO single individual and see only them where there are TWO VESSELS involved. That is the principle that is in view here.

So, it appears that the Lord himself blames and accuses "the slaves" (as you persist in calling them). You continuously speak of the ignorance and helplessness of "the slaves" In spite of the fact that the bible says that "Christ lighteth EVERY MAN that cometh into the world." Maybe Christ didn't do a thorough job?

Christ never condemned the captives. But are not the anti-Christ spirits also slaves to commit unrighteousness...? They can do nothing else IN MANKIND as that is what God meant them to do. God will bring every captive of sin, Gods offspring, ALL MANKIND out from under that working...the real egyptians however will be wiped out without regard when God is finished using them.

By the way, you might like the following admonition. It "exudes" choice and the resultant excellent blessings of a peaceful life. Here in the U.S., we'd surely better follow this before the November elections. I sure hope it includes lower gas prices!:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Ti 2:1-3 exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

(underlines, bolding and color emphases are my own).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Some verses that pose very interesting questions:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Tim 2:4-6 (God our Saviour) will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

(underlines, parentheses, bolding and color emphases are my own).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: the verses just above:
Saved from what? Come to repentance from what? Ransom from what? Why a mediator? Not willing that any should perish? What does "perish" mean in 2 Peter 3:9?

God Will have that transpire as it applies to mankind all. But again, mankind is simply not ALONE in the flesh my friend. This is what we have been speaking of through our entire discourse, and to NOT SEE THAT we will simply not be seeing the real picture of what mankind consists of.

Here are some other verses showing Man's God-given rulership over the entire Earth, including over himself:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gen 1:26-28 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. (including themselves).

(underlines, parentheses, bolding and color emphases are my own).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So obviously, God gave Man dominion "over every living thing that moveth upon the Earth." And since Man is a living thing that moveth upon the Earth, Man was also obviously given dominion over himself!

You have no choice over the fact that sin indwells your flesh, and all the cheerleading in the world will not eradicate that working. The Good News is however that working is NOT YOU or ME or any other of Gods offspring, ALL MANKIND.

To NOT see the scriptures AGAINST those others will just force a view upon your fellow man that is and remains in ignorance of the "facts." Jesus spoke to other entities IN mankind on nearly every page of the N.T. If you follow Him, you WILL do likewise. But of course that is HIS choice in you, and not of yourself. It is the call of LOVE upon your fellow man and the call of JUDGMENT upon that which we are ALL bound with. The classic two edged sword of scriptures. The revealing of the thoughts and intentions of the heart WILL reveal MORE than one occupant in the construction of mankind.

As all through the entire bible, please note the choices man is given in the following verses:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pro 5:1-5 My son, attend unto my wisdom, and bow thine ear to my understanding:

2 That thou mayest regard discretion, and that thy lips may keep knowledge.

3 For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil:

4 But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a twoedged sword.

5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And please don't think "a strange woman" mentioned in the verses just

above is ONLY a literal woman.

Sinning is thinning,
Arphaxad

When God speaks, there are two in view. Words of comfort and love and eternal mercy to His offspring, all mankind, and that same Word arousing the resistance IN mankind who is NOT THEM. If you feel the heat to condemn your fellow man, you will know who is really in charge "in you."


enjoy!

squint

 

[Arphaxad12]

Hello again Squint!

Again, thanks for writing. Ok, so even if I agree that Man is a divided double-minded creature, then what about "that perfect person within," the real person that is not "anti-Christ?" We have only spoken little about this poor beleaguered fellow. And does "he," as Christ said, have power over all the power of the Devil within?

Also, I can offer another way to see my believing brother in love besides his being a helpless victim of circumstance: I can see him as a new creature in Christ with the spirit of Christ within and realize that: "Greater is He that is within us than he that is in the world." I can see Christ within him! I can then see him as a victorious WINNER and not as a sorry bedraggled, woebegone loser to the Prince of this World. This victorious view is much more kind loving and scripturally accurate than the "excused bedraggled victim" view.

No longer do I have to make excuses for my brother in Christ by saying: "He's off the hook because he has indwelling sin." Now I can say: "We were ALL "dead ducks" under the Law, but Christ has saved us by fulfilling the Law for us. Moreover the proud, self-glorifying, faithless, God-hating rebel I used to be has been put to death and been spiritually resurrected as a new creature in Christ, alive unto God, His precious child forever!

Thus I don't insult God by denying the importance of His miraculous permanent work done within all of us who have turned to Him for salvation.

With all due respect, the concepts you have so far set forth are in direct opposition to the Gospel of salvation by Christ. "Salvation" means to "be saved." According to what I read from your doctrine, there is nothing to be saved from because we are all created perfect and are all excused from all mistakes by virtue of the incitement and influence of inherent indwelling devils within.

And even if we were all burdened by indwelling devils, did not the Lord give all believers power over all the works of the Enemy? Is not "He that is within us greater than he that is in the world?

Your theology is not a Christian theology. The idea of "Salvation" does not exist within all you have thus far written. What shall we call this doctrine you have described as being your own?: "Pefectionism? Modified Calvinism? Animalism?

Are you completely and absolutely convinced that this "Devil made me do it" doctrine you think you believe is REALLY your own? Do you think Satan within might possibly be clever enough to deceive even you into espousing a convenient doctrine that "the real you" doesn't actually believe at all?:
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Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
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Sinning is thinning,
"Arph"

 

[squint]

Hello again Squint!

Again, thanks for writing. Ok, so even if I agree that Man is a divided double-minded creature,

tsk tsk. Man/double minded? Why is it again "just A MAN?"

The offspring of God, all mankind, have their mind. The devil and his own have their mind. How is it that you cannot get this?

then what about "that perfect person within," the real person that is not "anti-Christ?" We have only spoken little about this poor beleaguered fellow. And does "he," as Christ said, have power over all the power of the Devil within?

What is the power of God played out in but weakness. You seem to insist that victory is in eradication of sin, and yes, wouldn't that be just dandy, except that presentation doesn't exist for our present bodies.

Love perhaps trancends in ways apart from eradication. In ways like LONG SUFFERING...and NOT COUNTING WRONGS...and DOING NO ILL...and VAUNTING NOT OURSELF...

and NOT FAILING in doing these things in the midst of DARKNESS...

Also, I can offer another way to see my believing brother in love besides his being a helpless victim of circumstance:

Being a captive as it pertains to sin indwelling the flesh is quite different from finding and living life in the Spirit. These TWO circumstances can transpire SIMULTANEOUSLY as there is no other way. Sin indwelling the flesh is not departing nor are we promised that. The Law still arouses sin in the flesh to this very moment, and empowers it, EVEN in believers. That is NOT changing until we all get bodies that are not SUBJECT TO that working. Must we continually rehash these things?

I can see him as a new creature in Christ with the spirit of Christ within and realize that: "Greater is He that is within us than he that is in the world." I can see Christ within him! I can then see him as a victorious WINNER and not as a sorry bedraggled, woebegone loser to the Prince of this World. This victorious view is much more kind loving and scripturally accurate than the "excused bedraggled victim" view.

I count my fellow man perfect. Did you find fault in that recently? Do we need to put this up again as well?

-EVERYONE WHO LOVES BOTH KNOWS GOD AND IS BORN OF GOD....(my quick on 1 John 4:7)

No longer do I have to make excuses for my brother in Christ by saying: "He's off the hook because he has indwelling sin."

It's getting rather funny to see you blur these lines. When SIN transpires in the body THAT BODY is a SLAVE OF SIN and that SIN is OF THE DEVIL.

So, IF you "continue" to drag "your fellow man" into the blame equation...I know what's working IN YOU...dig? And I KNOW whom is making that statement....and it AIN'T the child of God.

We do NOT COUNT SINS AGAINST MANKIND when we are HIS. Those who do so do so as SLAVES themselves, being dragged along by the WORKERS OF INIQUITY in their flesh...having NO IDEA what is going on. So, is being ignorant A SIN? Perhaps not, for the offspring of God anyway...

Now I can say: "We were ALL "dead ducks" under the Law, but Christ has saved us by fulfilling the Law for us. Moreover the proud, self-glorifying, faithless, God-hating rebel I used to be has been put to death and been spiritually resurrected as a new creature in Christ, alive unto God, His precious child forever!

The Law was always meant to be AGAINST the DEVIL and his messengers and FOR the children of God. The law is AGAINST lawlessness in the flesh and FOR spiritual discernment for His offspring.

Again, we see that WORDS can be APPLICABLE against ONE in ONE WAY and FOR the OTHER in ANOTHER WAY.

The "same Law" that says LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF" is FOR Gods offspring to WALK IN and RILES THE DEVIL...to RESISTANCE...

get it yet?

There will be ONE in you that GETS IT...and there will be another in your flesh that will FIGHT THAT same working...

GET IT YET?

Thus I don't insult God by denying the importance of His miraculous permanent work done within all of us who have turned to Him for salvation.

With all due respect, the concepts you have so far set forth are in direct opposition to the Gospel of salvation by Christ.

Oh yeah. That loving ones neighbors as themselves is a real APOSTASY isn't it???

zzzzzzzzzzz...to the resistance movement....

"Salvation" means to "be saved." According to what I read from your doctrine, there is nothing to be saved from because we are all created perfect and are all excused from all mistakes by virtue of the incitement and influence of inherent indwelling devils within.

Perhaps you need saving from imposing your false views of what's being said by me and placing them over me and then calling them "mine?"

I happen to believe it's VERY important to MAKE THE DISTINCTION between A CHILD OF GOD and A CHILD OF THE DEVIL...and in that there is SALVATION for the ONE and DAMNATION for the other...

But the POSITION that either is slated for will not change...in any case. All of mankind WILL be saved...and all of devil kind will be lost...

The only difference is WHO will see in this present life and to what degree as it pertains to Gods offspring and WHAT He has slated for THEM. But they ALL make it...

And even if we were all burdened by indwelling devils, did not the Lord give all believers power over all the works of the Enemy? Is not "He that is within us greater than he that is in the world?

See prior...long suffering IS victory friend...AND you ain't gettin' ERADICATION of your enemies in the flesh...unless you want to tell me how sinless your flesh and mind is...

and you wouldn't be the first to try that one either.

Your theology is not a Christian theology.

Ohhh. Well now...when you find "two" that agree, y'all just come on around...and we'll see. Devils in mankind will keep ALMOST ALL people divided..and for that I am and remain THANKful.

The idea of "Salvation" does not exist within all you have thus far written. What shall we call this doctrine you have described as being your own?: "Pefectionism? Modified Calvinism? Animalism?

If you want to equate "salvation" with having Jesus painted across your lips whilst condemning your fellow man either temporarily or permanently to be burned alive in torture, you will find plenty of company, and NO, I am not in "that group." See 1 John 4:7 and also the SUPER abundance of SCRIPTURE that says LOVE YOUR NEIGHBORS AS YOURSELF...

So, while you are busy wearing your purple robes and telling the "unsaved" how pathetic they are by not having JESUS painted across their lips...

I DO HOPE HE FINDS ME LOVING THEM....all.

Get it yet?

Are you completely and absolutely convinced that this "Devil made me do it" doctrine you think you believe is REALLY your own? Do you think Satan within might possibly be clever enough to deceive even you into espousing a convenient doctrine that "the real you" doesn't actually believe at all?:
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Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
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Sinning is thinning,
"Arph"

Arph, really...I just addressed the "DEVIL MADE ME DO IT" as your false spin on what's being said in the LAST post.

Perhaps you just need to think on these things for awhile and come back after a few days to see if God allows it to sink in, OR your resistor is just going to take you off into more false accusations and false spinnings...

and that is a GIFT that I have from following Him...just so ya know.

The desire to blame and accuse your fellow man WILL GROW out of proportion and you will fall MORE VICTIM to that working... when you are confronted with actually LOVING YOUR NEIGHBORS AS YOURSELF...without all the ATTACHMENTS that the resistors BRING...

enjoy!

squint