What is salvation?

[EmSw]

- NO this text is about people who have fallen away, NOT salvation. you PRESUME the list describes people who are "fully saved", yet the writer has not really said they were saved. so this is your extracted presumption.
- read #218
- "salvation can be lost" ?, your sect dont even teach you totally have it already so why bother.
- "pope can fall" ? he did fall yesterday in poland during his mass.

Here is verse 1 of chapter 6 of Hebrews -

Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

And of course, the 'therefore' is referring back to previous words. Let's see what they are, shall we?

12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe.
14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is,those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. (Hebrews 5)

I ask, is verse one speaking of believers or unbelievers? Can unbelievers go on to perfection?

Should unbelievers be teachers in the church? Are unbelievers babes 'in Christ'?

Therefore (referring to what I previously wrote), this is very much about salvation, about those who are already saved.

You refer to 'fully saved'; is there 'partially saved'? If so, is a 'partially saved' person saved? Does he need to do something else to be 'fully saved'? Does a 'partially saved' person escape hell? Does a 'partially saved' person belong to Jesus and have life within them?

 

[Geralt]

1) the writer of Hebrews is obviously writing to Jewish Christians. that may qualify as "true" believers, but that is not definite as the reality on the ground during that time (and even every centuries to come, until today! ) that persons may become believers and eventually turn their back. Even Paul has a problem with Jewish Christians (in his letter to the Galatians) who seem to revert back to their Jewish ways and tried to persuade the gentile Christians to follow suit.

2) I don't think that question is even relevant to the context, unless you are trying to prove teachers = believers. Im telling you the reality on the ground is that cults and other variations of a distorted Christ have their own teachers as well, and i don't believe you will qualify them as believers.

3) The"fully saved" clause came from our orthodox friend, not me. If you ask me though, there is only the saved and the unsaved. So we could agree on this.

However if your position is arminian - the saved or fully saved can lose their salvation - then i suppose you might want to challenge my explanation; and please ask more questions.​

Here is verse 1 of chapter 6 of Hebrews -
..

1) I ask, is verse one speaking of believers or unbelievers? Can unbelievers go on to perfection?

2) Should unbelievers be teachers in the church? Are unbelievers babes 'in Christ'?

Therefore (referring to what I previously wrote), this is very much about salvation, about those who are already saved.

3) You refer to 'fully saved'; is there 'partially saved'? If so, is a 'partially saved' person saved? Does he need to do something else to be 'fully saved'? Does a 'partially saved' person escape hell? Does a 'partially saved' person belong to Jesus and have life within them?

 

[fhansen]

These examples are altogether fitting for you to use to bolster your teaching that saved people can lose their salvation.

The reason is that they, like the ones you used before, do not say what you say that they say.

I happen to believe what Jesus said about not losing any that the Father gives to Him. I happen to believe that those who believe will not come again into condemnation (as Jesus promised).

You, on the other hand, do not believe that. You are not alone in that.

You and I can disagree on the doctrine which says that He is the author and the finisher of the faith of true believers.

That's fine. I can live with that. I'm sure that you can as well.

But you have to use verses which fit the context to bolster your teaching if you are going to continue teaching loss of salvation.

You can't use verses which do not say what you are trying to say.

I take that back. You can use verses out of context. It just won't be acceptable exegesis of scripture.

Sorry, but I just used verses that disagree with your position. There are many of them.

 

[Arsenios]

- NO this text is about people who have fallen away, NOT salvation.

It is about people who have been saved, who are being saved, and who will be saved, each and every one of them, and what can happen to them IF they SHOULD fall away...

you PRESUME the list describes people who are "fully saved",

"Fully Saved" is YOUR term, not mine, and is not found in the Bible...

yet the writer has not really said they were saved. so this is your extracted presumption.
- read #218

Your argument is that those who have been enlightened, have tasted of the heavenly Gift, have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, have tasted the good Word of God, have tasted the Powers of the Age to Come, that these have NOT been fully saved, yes?

So you are right, I kinda slipped by trying to summarize YOUR understanding and query you... I look like I am saying that they ARE fully saved... We see in the looking glass darkly - We have but an EARNEST of the LIFE of the Age to Come...

So forgive me for my imprecision of language here in #228

- "salvation can be lost" ?,

Indeed, and the end, as the Author of Hebrews who you think is not Paul, affirms that such as who do are only fit for burning... Yet there is hope even for them, because Scripture also records that some whose works are tried and found wanting may still be saved, though through burning... I am paraphrasing from memory - Paul wrote that, I believe...

your sect doesn't even teach that you totally have it already so why bother?

We are given Salvation in this life in an earnest, as Paul states, and that earnest is specified somewhat in his Epistle to the Hebrews, and you are denying that this is what Salvation IS... In THIS life... In an EARNEST... As a MEMBER of the very BODY of our Lord Jesus Christ...

[/quote]- "pope can fall" ? he did fall yesterday in poland during his mass.[/QUOTE]

I hope he was not injured...

There is no height in this fallen life from which a man cannot fall...

Man himself is the ONLY force that can separate man from the Love of God in this life...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

1) the writer of Hebrews is obviously writing to Jewish Christians.​

Well, so anyone from, say, Flint, Michigan can therefore skip reading and heeding Hebrews, right?

that may qualify as "true" believers, but that is not definite as the reality on the ground during that time (and even every centuries to come, until today! ) that persons may become believers and eventually turn their back. Even Paul has a problem with Jewish Christians (in his letter to the Galatians) who seem to revert back to their Jewish ways and tried to persuade the gentile Christians to follow suit.

He is indeed warning them that even after they have been saved from the world and entered into, in an earnest, the Life of the Age to Come, they can STILL LOSE that Salvation which is a Gift of God...

2) I don't think that question is even relevant to the context, unless you are trying to prove teachers = believers. I'm telling you the reality on the ground is that cults and other variations of a distorted Christ have their own teachers as well, and i don't believe you will qualify them as believers.

It is not, as you think, that they became believers and then stopped believing... They became PARTAKERS IN the Kingdom of Heaven, as the vss clearly state...

3) The"fully saved" clause came from our orthodox friend, not me. If you ask me though, there is only the saved and the unsaved. So we could agree on this.

I got the 'fully saved' clause from you... And if not, I am simply confused that I did... It is not a term from our Faith... Salvation is a life-long process in which we struggle to the end that we shall be saved... It begins at conversion, continues through our Baptism into the Body of Christ, which IS the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, and extends through the Last Judgement into the Life of the Age to Come...

Arsenios​

 

[Geralt]

read your post #208 friend, you were the one who started the infamous "fully saved, falling away".
you are trying to argue Hebrews but you never noticed you have become an arminian from a semi-pelagian position just to show you are right. a man of many faces is difficult to argue with..

Well, so anyone from, say, Flint, Michigan can therefore skip reading and heeding Hebrews, right?

He is indeed warning them that even after they have been saved from the world and entered into, in an earnest, the Life of the Age to Come, they can STILL LOSE that Salvation which is a Gift of God...

It is not, as you think, that they became believers and then stopped believing... They became PARTAKERS IN the Kingdom of Heaven, as the vss clearly state...

I got the 'fully saved' clause from you... And if not, I am simply confused that I did... It is not a term from our Faith... Salvation is a life-long process in which we struggle to the end that we shall be saved... It begins at conversion, continues through our Baptism into the Body of Christ, which IS the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, and extends through the Last Judgement into the Life of the Age to Come...

Arsenios​

 

[Arsenios]

read your post #208 friend, you were the one who started the infamous "fully saved, falling away".

I read it, quoted it for you, and conceded your point, and revised it for you...

And you tell me to read post 208 again...

Are you reading my posts at all?

Here is what I wrote:

I got the 'fully saved' clause from you...
And if not, I am simply confused that I did...
It is not a term from our Faith...
Salvation is a life-long process in which we struggle to the end that we shall be saved...
It begins at conversion,
continues through our Baptism into the Body of Christ,
which IS the Kingdom of Heaven on earth,
and extends through the Last Judgement
into the Life of the Age to Come...

Note the underlined part... Conceding your point...

Salvation is progressive, from Glory to Glory...

you are trying to argue Hebrews

I AM arguing from the Hebrews text...

but you never noticed you have become an arminian from a semi-pelagian position just to show you are right.

I am neither semi-pelagian not arminian, but Eastern Orthodox...

a man of many faces is difficult to argue with..

You have not engaged the text I provided from Hebrews...

It affirms that Salvation can be lost...

I asked you to define Salvation, and you did not do so... You only said that if it could be lost it was not Salvation...

I said the Hebrews text gives us the features of Salvation... You said it was written to the Jews...

I asked if you regarded the Hebrews text as what Salvation is... You did not respond...

Please engage the text...

Arsenios

 

[Marvin Knox]

Dropping in again here for a little reading - I find it very interesting that there are people here actually using Hebrews 6:4-6 to teach that a saved person can lose their salvation.

While the book of Hebrews in general and this area in particular is a bit difficult for many – one thing that is emphatically true is that this particular passage simply cannot tech loss of salvation. To use it in that way would be so obviously wrong that one would have to wonder if the purveyor of that teaching has ever read any of the rest of Hebrews or, indeed, much of the N.T. at all.

Interestingly, almost all of those who teach that a person can lose their salvation also teach that that person can be saved again. They teach that one can regain that salvation by repentance and good works which prove that repentance to be true.

You can easily see that fact by reading the writings of those who oppose OSAS here on this thread.

And why wouldn't they? The call for repentance toward God is all through the scriptures from Cain to Nineveh to the prodigal son is it not?

But this teaching that a lost backslider can repent and be saved again directly contradicts God’s Word in this passage if the passage teaches loss of salvation for wayward believers.

The passage would emphatically be stating that if one could lose their salvation, it would be impossible to restore them again to salvation.

The principle revealed and taught by the writer in this Hebrews 6:4-6 passage would be that “ONCE SAVED AND LOST, ALWAYS LOST”.

The writer is however, in truth, using this illustration to show the ridiculous nature of the teaching of those who teach that a saved person can be lost. He is – in point of fact - teaching us that “ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED”.

God has decided that salvation would be His free gift; a gift that could not be earned, but was paid for in full by Jesus Christ. God will not take back His freely given gift of grace that was not based on a man's good works, but on the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

We are even sealed for eternity by the Holy Spirit upon our true belief - to that end - are we not?

“The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” Romans 11:29

That statement is clear and concise - and yet God has gone out of His way to make it even more clear by giving us this section of Hebrews.

But absolutely amazingly (to me at least) – some actually try to make the Hebrews passage a foundation for their false teaching concerning loss of salvation.

Any good system of Bible study would show that a saved person cannot lose their salvation. But – even putting systematic theology aside – to miss the point of Hebrews and even see it the opposite of the way from what God meant it to teach is jaw dropping to say the least.

 

[EmSw]

“The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” Romans 11:29

So, I'll ask you Marvin, is physical life a gift from God?

Is sight, hearing, speech, and all other bodily features a gift from God?

It seems another poster in this forum hesitates to answer.

 

[Marvin Knox]

So, I'll ask you Marvin, is physical life a gift from God?

Is sight, hearing, speech, and all other bodily features a gift from God?

It seems another poster in this forum hesitates to answer.

So typical of the games you like to play - this does not address my post.

I don't intend to correspond with you much for that reason. Your bait and switch tactics are so obvious that Ray Charles could see them.

But, briefly - for what it's worth - the answers are yes and yes.

P.S.
That other person you refer to quite likely refuses to answer you because he or she sees through your childish games and is sickened by them.

I - on the other hand - am constantly amazed and I marvel at how readily you make a fool of yourself here in the forum.

I never tire of watching how often you step in your own mess - even if I usually try to refrain from stepping in with you - as I will likely do here shortly after a couple of posts to you.

 

[DingDing]

Hello Geralt,

You made the following post, then cited a post of mine. I can only assume your post was meant to address my post.

... He [God] does not save/forgive then later on proved to have made a mistake for the person 'fell' away.

as i have been telling over and over again, WHEN GOD SAVES PEOPLE HE ALSO CHANGES THEM. that is the missing factor why people wont believe that there is no such thing as "saved" and then "fall away" later. its not the argument about OSAS or the contrary, but rather a distorted view of God who saves people and then act like santa clause on the side checking them out and making a list.

that my friend is a puny version of god, pagan, indifferent. the God of Scripture engages man personally and directly, FORMS them as potter is to clay- basically they are his workmanship. The christian apart from being saved, is a NEW CREATION, a new person with a new heart and desire to serve God, sealed with the holy spirit.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. ​

Given this foundation, the only alternative to understand the argued Hebrews [6:4] verse is simply : if they fall away, they never were; 1 John 2:19

So, in Matthew 18, was not that person forgiven? If so, then what happened? Why does he become unforgiven?

You quote Eph. 2:10 as if no one can resist some intended outcome. But what if God has prepared a path that we should walk, but He still gives us opportunity to choose to reject that path? Did not Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount present two paths? Did He tell us that we have no choice in which path we walk? God does not make us walk the right path, and I see nowhere in scripture which supports such a notion. Sorry, but you have not proven your point.

 

[DingDing]

Dropping in again here for a little reading - I find it very interesting that there are people here actually using Hebrews 6:4-6 to teach that a saved person can lose their salvation.
...
But this teaching that a lost backslider can repent and be saved again directly contradicts God’s Word in this passage if the passage teaches loss of salvation for wayward believers.

The passage emphatically states that if one could lose their salvation, it would be impossible to restore them again to salvation.

The principle revealed and taught by the writer in this Hebrews 6:4-6 passage would be that “ONCE SAVED AND LOST, ALWAYS LOST”.

Hello MK,

I don't have time to dive in deep here, but the Greek (in Heb. 6) actually implies that it is impossible for you (or some other person) to renew such a fallen person to salvation. The point that the Greek supports is that such a person, who knows the depths of God's grace, cannot be brought to repentance by another person. A fallen person such as this already knows all that is needed for repentance. So what are you, or anyone else, going to say to them that they don't already know? Such a person has full knowledge of what God demands, and they have walked away from it. At this point, you (or any other person) ain't got nothing to add. What can you possibly tell someone who knows the full truth of the gospel, yet walks away from it? Absolutely nothing. That is the point of Hebrews 6:4-6. (But Heb. 6:7-8 still holds out hope for such a person.)

...
Any good system of Bible study would show that a saved person cannot lose their salvation. ...

Thankfully, I've seen through the deception of such bible studies.

 

[EmSw]

So typical of the games you like to play - this does not address my post.

I don't intend to correspond with you much for that reason. Your bait and switch tactics are so obvious that Ray Charles could see them.

Sure it addresses your post; did you not mention that the gifts of God are irrevocable?

I want us all to see if you consider the things I mentioned are gifts of God.

But, briefly - for what it's worth - the answers are yes and yes.

Thank you Marvin. The other poster can't bring himself to answer these questions.

P.S.
That other person you refer to quite likely refuses to answer you because he or she sees through your childish games and is sickened by them.

Did I say let's play hide and seek? Why do you think questions about God are games? Is God a game to you?

I - on the other hand - am constantly amazed and I marvel at how readily you make a fool of yourself here in the forum.

I never tire of watching how often you step in your own mess - even if I usually try to refrain from stepping in with you - as I will likely do here shortly after a couple of posts to you.

Why do you call me a fool? Does that delight you on the inside? As far as I know, no one else has called me a fool.

You first call the things of God a game, and now you say they are a mess. But you know what Marvin - I hold nothing against you. You live as you see fit within God's parameters, and that is all you can do.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Sure it addresses your post; did you not mention that the gifts of God are irrevocable?

Yes - I did - obviously.

And your point - very quickly now before I lose interest?

I want us all to see if you consider the things I mentioned are gifts of God.
Thank you Marvin. The other poster can't bring himself to answer these questions.

You're welcome for now and your desire has been granted.

All can now see what I believe.

And your point?

Did I say let's play hide and seek? Why do you think questions about God are games? Is God a game to you?

“The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” Romans 11:29

Is physical life a gift from God?

Is sight, hearing, speech, and all other bodily features a gift from God?

the answers are yes and yes.

And your point?

Unless you cut to your point in the very next post - you will obviously be playing games and I will leave you to it.

Your choice.

 

[Arsenios]

There are people here actually using Hebrews 6:4-6 to teach that a saved person can lose their salvation.

The passage emphatically states that if one could lose their salvation,
it would be impossible to restore them again to salvation.

The text reads that "It is impossible to renew them to repentance" if ever they should fall away...

This is understood for 2000 years now in the Orthodox Faith (the Faith that preserved the Bible for the first 2thousand years of Christianity) as meaning that one cannot be baptized a second time, because when one converts and enters into repentance and instruction in the Faith of Christ, one is then Baptized into Christ, washing away all his sins and bestowing on him the Gift of the Holy Spirit, being baptized into Christ's Death on the Cross... That is your one time full cleansing from all sin and entry into the Body of Christ... It is what Christ's Death on the Cross was for, that you receive complete remission of all your sins, and acquire the means to overcome sins as they arise for the rest of your life, and if you should sin, you confess and repent and are forgiven and rejoined into the Body of Christ...

That to fall away after this Baptism and seek re-baptism is to put Christ's Death on the Cross for them to open shame:

One Baptism is enough...

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.

Arsenios

 

[Gabriel Anton]

Peace be with you.

7 then the Lord God formed the man[e] out of the dust of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Gift of life. Gift of body. Gift of nose, breathing, air. The man has to breathe air to live. He is so dependent on air just to live.


Genesis C2
9 [g]Out of the ground the Lord God made grow every tree that was delightful to look at and good for food, with the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Beautiful trees with food. Now the man has to eat as well to live. Gift of sight and food and mouth to eat and taste.


15 The Lord God then took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden, to cultivate and care for it.

Now the man has to go to work. Gift of work.


16 The Lord God gave the man this order: You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden 17 except the tree of knowledge of good and evil. From that tree you shall not eat; when you eat from it you shall die.[i]

Gift of hearing to hear with ears. Gift of mind to think. Now the man has to obey God or not. Gift of choice and will. Disobedience to the Word of God leads to death. Result of choice and will. Gift of faith and foresight.

God bless you.

 

[Arsenios]

Peace be with you.
God bless you.

Thank-you my Brother...

The curse of God is His Blessing to man...

Embracing labors and thorns finds Salvation...

Christ died in agony on the Cross...

God Bless You...

Arsenios

 

[faroukfarouk]

Here are the terms and my understanding of them:

Salvation is the gift of eternal life, a gift given by God, a gift that is not earned, a gift that cannot be refused by the elect. Salvation is the term in which all others describe in part.
"He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5)

Adoption is when we become a child of God, the elect chosen long before they were born.
"To redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” " (Galatians 4:5-7)

Heirship ties closely in with adoption. Not all will receive the gift of eternal life.
"This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring." (Romans 9:8)

Justification is the term to describe the first stage of salvation, the instantaneous moment in which God changes the heart by His grace and mercy, and we accept His gift of the Holy Spirit by faith.
"So that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life." (Titus 3:7)

Sanctification is the lifelong process, which varies in degree with each individual, where the justified are made more holy and will sin less in practice by the work of the Holy Spirit. To become more Christ like, but never perfect!
"We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin." (Romans 6:6)

Glorification ties everything together back to God. The life and events of the individual and those yet to come which glorify our Creator who not only gave us life but has redeemed us eternally. To God alone be the glory!!
"Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2-4)

Eternal Security is directly related to the promise that God gave His chosen. Though we may yet struggle in this life, the difficulties we face in this fallen world are meant to challenge and grow us. This is directly related to Sanctification. One is not made perfectly holy upon their conversion (Justification) or there would be no room for growth. This forces the adopted to rely and trust totally on God's work within them, and not themselves.
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." (John 10:27-29)

GillDouglas:

Ephesians 2.8-9 is a great passage also, which explains that salvation is a gift received by faith, by God's grace, not of works. Kind of a pivotal passage, really.

 

[sdowney717]

Peace be with you.

7 then the Lord God formed the man[e] out of the dust of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Gift of life. Gift of body. Gift of nose, breathing, air. The man has to breathe air to live. He is so dependent on air just to live.


Genesis C2
9 [g]Out of the ground the Lord God made grow every tree that was delightful to look at and good for food, with the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Beautiful trees with food. Now the man has to eat as well to live. Gift of sight and food and mouth to eat and taste.


15 The Lord God then took the man and settled him in the garden of Eden, to cultivate and care for it.

Now the man has to go to work. Gift of work.


16 The Lord God gave the man this order: You are free to eat from any of the trees of the garden 17 except the tree of knowledge of good and evil. From that tree you shall not eat; when you eat from it you shall die.[i]

Gift of hearing to hear with ears. Gift of mind to think. Now the man has to obey God or not. Gift of choice and will. Disobedience to the Word of God leads to death. Result of choice and will. Gift of faith and foresight.

God bless you.

And the result of this was death for the man and the woman both.

By wisdom it says what?

1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1 Corinthians 1:22
For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

1 Corinthians 1:24
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

[Fozzy]

Austin Fischer became a Calvinist because his reading of the Bible offered him no other choice. He left Calvinism when he could not reconcile its tenets with the self-sacrificial love God demonstrated on the cross of Jesus Christ.

Fischer, teaching pastor at Vista Community Church, a Baptist General Convention of Texas-affiliated congregation in Temple, wrote about his spiritual journey in Young, Restless, No Longer Reformed: Black Holes, Love and a Journey in and out of Calvinism. He is a graduate of the University of Mary Hardin-Baylor and Baylor University’s Truett Theological Seminary.

Like many young evangelicals, the writing of John Piper provided Fischer’s introduction to Calvinism—a system of theology inspired by Reformer John Calvin that emphasizes the sovereignty of God, the depravity of humanity and the predestined election of some to salvation and others to damnation.