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What is salvation?

EmSw

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Sin is what unholy people do. Therefore, if a person is to be made holy, then holiness is not something to be gained by not sinning. I am honestly surprised that what I said would be all that controversial. Sanctification comes from God's movement in a person's life, not by the person's own good works or merits. Is that last sentence something that you disagree with, or am I misunderstanding.

So, am I to understand that you believe that a person can have faith and not grow in holiness as a result? I would say that holiness is pursued by faith, not by works. But, before we get there, I think we need to establish what faith is. Faith is not merely believing, as in the same way that I believe that 2+2=4. Nor is it merely believing something that you cannot prove or observe, such as the way my children once believed in Santa Claus. Faith is conviction and steadfast belief that spurs a person to action. So, when Paul says that we are saved by grace though faith, not by works, he is not saying that works have no part in the equation. He is emphasizing that faith (which leads to leads to works) is what matters, not the works themselves. Compare this with James, who says that faith without works is dead, in which the emphasis is on the fact that works are the result of genuine faith. Though Paul and James place different emphases, their message is the same: We are not saved by doing good things, but by faith. Faith, in turn, leads to doing good things.

I'm going to give you these verses which state what our sanctification is.

1 Thessalonians 4
3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;
4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God;

6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified.
7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness.
8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.


Do you see what our sanctification is? WE SHOULD ABSTAIN from sexual immorality, for we are not called to uncleanness.
Nobody is going to abstain from sexual immorality for you. It is totally up to you. I'm not saying God won't help you, but it is your choice and action to ABSTAIN.

I hope you don't reject this, because then you are rejecting God, not me.
 
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Kersh

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I'm going to give you these verses which state what our sanctification is.

1 Thessalonians 4
3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;
4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God;

6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified.
7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness.
8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit.


Do you see what our sanctification is? WE SHOULD ABSTAIN from sexual immorality, for we are not called to uncleanness.
Nobody is going to abstain from sexual immorality for you. It is totally up to you. I'm not saying God won't help you, but it is your choice and action to ABSTAIN.

I hope you don't reject this, because then you are rejecting God, not me.


I do not have the ability to abstain from sexual immorality apart of God's sanctifying grace. Without God's intervention, I do not "know how to posses my own vessel I sanctification and honor." Faith is the vehicle that allows God to make me a slave to righteousness, so that I can know how to live as God wills.

I cannot make myself holy. That's God's job, and faith is my part in the process.

Though I disagree with you, I am not rejecting God or His word. I have no disagreement with any passage of Scripture you have proferred. In fact, much of what you've provided seems to support what I've been saying here.

I'd also add that sanctification is not merely abstaining from sexual immorality. Some people are naturally asexual. Others perhaps have taught themselves to abstain for a period of time for legalistic, health, or other reasons. But, what separates such a person from a holy person is faith.


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Marvin Knox

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My life verse and a good promise for everyone who has experienced the grace of God:

"I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."
Philippians 1:6

Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!
 
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Gabriel Anton

Exitus Acta Probat Acta Non Verba Deus Vult 11:18
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Peace be with you.

You guys do know in order for God to forgive you of your sins, you have to enter into a covenant with Him, right?

Covenant means you scratch my back, I scratch your back. Not God scratch my back, I believe I scratch His back.

Grace sounds so feel good and sweet. But honestly who can see grace? God's grace this and God's grace that. Do you even know what God's grace is?

I just want to do God's Will. I invite everyone to come and work for Almighty Jesus Christ. Produce good fruit as evidence of your repentance.
Stop daydreaming about Salvation but actually Work for your Salvation as Jesus Christ has willed it so.

Embrace the Word of God with a good and generous heart and fill your lives with virtuous deeds meriting True Salvation. Make Jesus Christ proud to call you His Children.

God bless you.
 
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EmSw

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My life verse and a good promise for everyone who has experienced the grace of God:

"I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."
Philippians 1:6

Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!

Mine is...

Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.
Revelation 2:10
 
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EmSw

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I do not have the ability to abstain from sexual immorality apart of God's sanctifying grace. Without God's intervention, I do not "know how to posses my own vessel I sanctification and honor." Faith is the vehicle that allows God to make me a slave to righteousness, so that I can know how to live as God wills.

Knowing how to live does not guarantee living that way. One must be willing and determined to live that way. Just like reading and knowing how to bake a cake does not guarantee the cake will be baked. You must actually do something for the cake to get baked.

Before you tasted grace, did you commit sexual immorality day after day? Surely the female sex must have stayed far from you. That's a strong statement that you did not have the ability to abstain. The worst of God's enemies have the ability to abstain from sexual immorality.

I cannot make myself holy. That's God's job, and faith is my part in the process.

However, you can abstain from sexual immorality (your job), which is YOUR sanctification. How does faith keep you from abstaining except you obey the truth it presents?

Faith does not do anything apart from a person's willingness to follow and act upon what faith teaches.

Though I disagree with you, I am not rejecting God or His word. I have no disagreement with any passage of Scripture you have proferred. In fact, much of what you've provided seems to support what I've been saying here.

If you don't disagree with me, nor with the passage I provided, then you know your sanctification is for you to willingly abstain from sexual immorality.

I'd also add that sanctification is not merely abstaining from sexual immorality. Some people are naturally asexual. Others perhaps have taught themselves to abstain for a period of time for legalistic, health, or other reasons. But, what separates such a person from a holy person is faith.

What separates a sanctified person from a profane person is willingly abstaining from sexual immorality.
 
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Kersh

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Knowing how to live does not guarantee living that way. One must be willing and determined to live that way. Just like reading and knowing how to bake a cake does not guarantee the cake will be baked. You must actually do something for the cake to get baked.

Before you tasted grace, did you commit sexual immorality day after day? Surely the female sex must have stayed far from you. That's a strong statement that you did not have the ability to abstain. The worst of God's enemies have the ability to abstain from sexual immorality.



However, you can abstain from sexual immorality (your job), which is YOUR sanctification. How does faith keep you from abstaining except you obey the truth it presents?

Faith does not do anything apart from a person's willingness to follow and act upon what faith teaches.



If you don't disagree with me, nor with the passage I provided, then you know your sanctification is for you to willingly abstain from sexual immorality.



What separates a sanctified person from a profane person is willingly abstaining from sexual immorality.

There is a difference between making moral choices on one or more occasions and abstaining from immorality. Most people surely can choose to go moments even days without giving in to temptation. But, holiness is about not having any immorality in our lives at all. It's not going a day or two without sinning. This is God's work, not ours.

But, TBH, I likely did commit sexual immorality on a nearly daily basis before receiving God's grace. Not physically of course, but in my thoughts and desires. After all Jesus said that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has lready committed adultery with her in his heart. I was often angry with, even insulting to, others, which Jesus equates to murder. In fact, as I read through Matthew 5, I realize that God isn't done with me yet, and I still have a lot of growing to do. If you can read through the Sermon on the Mount and believe that you can change yourself to be like what Jesus describes, then more power to you, I suppose. But, as I read Scripture, I see no way to live in perfect holiness but for God's direct and supernatural intervention in our thoughts and desires.

So, yes I do disagree with you, but not with any passage of Scripture you quoted. But, I doubt we're going to change each other's minds, so I don't know much longer I'll persist in this particular conversation.

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Kersh

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What separates a sanctified person from a profane person is willingly abstaining from sexual immorality.


So, if a Buddhist disciplines himself to abstain from sexual immorality, because he believes that doing so will help him to escape the wheel of suffering and thereby attain nirvana, does that make him a holy person?



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Gabriel Anton

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Do any of you know , what sexual immorality is according to God?

May God open our eyes to understand.

Peace be with you.

Lust, licentiousness, lewdness, porn, adultery, fornication, nudity, paying for sex, being a porn star, using sexual organs in inappropriate manners, using the mouth in an inappropriate manner, sodomy, incest, beastiality, pedophilia, masturbation, horniness, exhibitionism, sexual art, entertaining sexual thoughts in the mind, talking sexually, dancing sexually, using the face and body for inappropriate sexual matters, dressing explicitly, using body movements for explicit sexual communication, etc, etc, etc.

Please enlighten me with further additions.

God bless you.
 
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So, if a Buddhist disciplines himself to abstain from sexual immorality, because he believes that doing so will help him to escape the wheel of suffering and thereby attain nirvana, does that make him a holy person?

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Let's not be silly now. No one is proposing Works Salvationism Alone here. At least, I hope they are not. Salvation is ultimately in Jesus Christ and having faith in Him and what He has done for us. Salvation is faith + works (For works are the result of a true faith or the proof Christ lives in you). Also, James says so himself when he said we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).


...
 
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Freedom Now

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Peace be with you.

Lust, licentiousness, lewdness, porn, adultery, fornication, nudity, paying for sex, being a porn star, using sexual organs in inappropriate manners, using the mouth in an inappropriate manner, sodomy, incest, beastiality, pedophilia, masturbation, horniness, exhibitionism, sexual art, entertaining sexual thoughts in the mind, talking sexually, dancing sexually, using the face and body for inappropriate sexual matters, dressing explicitly, using body movements for explicit sexual communication, etc, etc, etc.

Please enlighten me with further additions.

God bless you.



Yes these are all included.

Sexual immorality or as a lot translations use the word "fornication".

Fornication according to Jews was considered any physical relations other than your betrothed.

Adultery was considered any physical relations other than who you were married to.


As Paul says in one of his letters.....

For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy, for I have betrothed you to one husband,
that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be let astray
from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

We are to abstain from fornication against Christ,...

the flesh with all its lusts and desires
the world with all its lusts and desires

Paul said,... I have crucified the flesh with all its lusts and desires...


Only a sincere and pure devotion with Christ will keep us from fornicating.

To be faithful...

Or as one poster said his favorite scripture is...


Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.


Faithful unto what death, death of the old man, so that we may receive the new life.


He who endures to the end will be saved..

What end? The end of the old man, and you will be saved and have life.



What most don't realize is that we are first of all saved from the punishment and penalty of our sins,
brought to a place where we have been justified and our past has been forgiven and we are betrothed
to Christ, and all this is through faith.
Because it was God's grace that sent His Son to die for us, not your works.

Our spirits that were dead, have now been regenerated,

God is working in us, but not taken up residence yet, because our Lord is a Holy God.
We need to be sanctified, to be made holy, so the Lord can come in.

In order for this to happen, our old sinful man needs to be put to death crucified, the
flesh with all its lusts and desires crucified and put to death.
To die , to renounce All that one has, to be emptied out, etc..

And according to our faith God bring this process about.
If there is anything that we are not willing to give up or die to, then we are declaring it more
important to God and has become an idol and we are committing fornication.
And God will make this death a reality in our walk, also called the discipline of God,
until you have completely died, are sanctified, this is the walk of suffering, the narrow hard
way that LEADS to life, and few find it because they are not willing to die.

End of sanctification, Eternal Life, newness of Life, Father and Son and Holy Spirit making their
home with us .
Consummated with the Lord, become one, married not just betrothed.

This is Eternal Life that you may know Him

He who has the Son has Eternal Life.


So, dear ones, keep a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

Renounce All that you have, your very life itself, and walk in this by faith and He
make your death to the old man a reality, and bring you to the newness of life, HIS LIFE in you.


May God bless you.
 
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Kersh

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Let's not be silly now. No one is proposing Works Salvationism Alone here. At least, I hope they are not. Salvation is ultimately in Jesus Christ and having faith in Him and what He has done for us. Salvation is faith + works (For works are the result of a true faith or the proof Christ lives in you). Also, James says so himself when he said we are justified by works and not faith alone (James 2:24).


...
I'd really like to hear EmSw's answer to the question. If the claim is that "what separates a sanctified person from a profane person is willingly abstaining from sexual immorality", then faith and redemptive work of God have no part at all in making a person holy or sanctified. If faith plays any part at all in sanctification, then the claim is simply not true.

Personally, I believe that sanctification involves a lot more than sexual morality. I'd also contend that faith is the key to holiness. But, as James points out, faith that does not bear fruit is not really faith at all. If you interpret James as suggesting that faith and works are two separate entities, then James blatantly contradicts Paul (See, e.g., Ephesians 2:8-9). But, if you understand James in the context of correcting the misapprehension of Paul's teaching, specifically that faith is not connected to one's actions and so our actions don't matter, then there is no contradiction at all. As I've said all along, faith is a conviction or belief that changes a person's desires and motivations. So, it is not faith + works = salvation. It is faith that inevitably leads us into God's grace, which allows us to be justified and sanctified. IOW, works is one of the results of faith, not a supplement to it.
 
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Freedom Now

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6th seal/ His appearing
Hebrews 9:28 shows that the next time He appears it will be
for salvation.
shall He appear
the second time - unto salvation




Has Christ been manifested, come, appeared, revealed Himself to you yet?


May God bless you.
 
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EmSw

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So, if a Buddhist disciplines himself to abstain from sexual immorality, because he believes that doing so will help him to escape the wheel of suffering and thereby attain nirvana, does that make him a holy person?

Do you not believe abstaining from sexual immorality? I have no idea what nirvana is, but I didn't know sanctification helps one to escape the wheel of suffering.

Are you saying now that one has the ability to abstain sexual immorality without faith?
 
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EmSw

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There is a difference between making moral choices on one or more occasions and abstaining from immorality. Most people surely can choose to go moments even days without giving in to temptation. But, holiness is about not having any immorality in our lives at all. It's not going a day or two without sinning. This is God's work, not ours.

But, TBH, I likely did commit sexual immorality on a nearly daily basis before receiving God's grace. Not physically of course, but in my thoughts and desires. After all Jesus said that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has lready committed adultery with her in his heart. I was often angry with, even insulting to, others, which Jesus equates to murder. In fact, as I read through Matthew 5, I realize that God isn't done with me yet, and I still have a lot of growing to do. If you can read through the Sermon on the Mount and believe that you can change yourself to be like what Jesus describes, then more power to you, I suppose. But, as I read Scripture, I see no way to live in perfect holiness but for God's direct and supernatural intervention in our thoughts and desires.

So, yes I do disagree with you, but not with any passage of Scripture you quoted. But, I doubt we're going to change each other's minds, so I don't know much longer I'll persist in this particular conversation.

I never said I do it alone. I said if I am not willing and determined of myself to abstain, it will NEVER happen, and neither will anybody else abstain.
 
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EmSw

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Let's not be silly now. No one is proposing Works Salvationism Alone here. At least, I hope they are not. Salvation is ultimately in Jesus Christ and having faith in Him and what He has done for us. Salvation is faith + works (For works are the result of a true faith or the proof Christ lives in you). Also, James says so himself when he said we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

Here is what James says about faith and works.

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Just as the body and spirit are one, so is faith and works. Take the spirit (works) from the body (faith), you have NOTHING, but a corpse. Unfortunately, many are depending upon their 'corpse' to save them. Ask any Reformed believer what a dead corpse can do. It has no life whatsoever.

Not only is a dead corpse lifeless, it is useless, worthless, and only fit for burial, or food for wild beasts.
 
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Here is what James says about faith and works.

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Just as the body and spirit are one, so is faith and works. Take the spirit (works) from the body (faith), you have NOTHING, but a corpse. Unfortunately, many are depending upon their 'corpse' to save them. Ask any Reformed believer what a dead corpse can do. It has no life whatsoever.

Not only is a dead corpse lifeless, it is useless, worthless, and only fit for burial, or food for wild beasts.

I couldn't agree more. But we also need faith in the Savior, too. Salvation is not "Belief Alone Salvation-ism" (i.e. "Anti-moral-ism, or Lawlessness) nor is Salvation "Works Alone Salvation-ism" (i.e. Anti-Grace, or an Ignoring of Jesus as one's Savior).


...
 
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