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What is Russia doing?
- Thread starter R.James
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So, just to start things off - I personally am anti-nuclear proliferation. However, the rest of the world doesn't seem to be, so please consider that what I post below is not necessarily my own view of what is right and wrong, but my interpretation of what the RF thinks is right and wrong (or, perhaps not "right and wrong", but "desirable and undesirable", may be better terms; I don't think morality enters into it much).
A. You have to try to look at it from the RF's point of view. Why should they not sell uranium to Iran? They don't have a problem with Iran. They want Iran to be their friend. Lots of countries who are not their friend have nuclear weapons or at least nuclear asiprations. Iran is probably going to get nukes one way or another, so they might as well get them from the RF, and feel kindly toward the RF once they have them, yes?
B. Sure, the US is not an enemy now. It might be an enemy in the future, though. And even if it never is, it might give away its missile defence system to some other country, and then where would the RF be left? Vulnerable and obsolete. Best to develop a way of penetrating such a shield now, so as to render such a shield null, so that no one will think they can strike at the RF with impugnity.
And I don't think Putin would be entirely averse to souring relations with the US a bit. He certainly doesn't want another Cold War - the RF simply can't afford it right now - but he would probably welcome a perceived tension between the RF and the US. Russia has always done best when she has someone to defy...it draws the people together (the RF, like the USSR and the Empire before it, is quite diverse in point of view and experience, not to mention ethnicity, and tends to fall into infighting not infrequently) and it makes the leader look bold and dashing. You have to remember that Russia was a superpower. The people miss being a superpower. They miss being respected, even if that respect was based on military formidibilty. Russia has never been able to dazzle the West with its culture or even its goods...it has always been treated like the idiot cousin, and has developed something of a complex over this...a sort of geo-political "short-man" syndrome. The people like a leader who is willing to bite his thumb at the West.
Well, the Yalta Convention was bought with the blood of the Red Army. The USSR paid dearly in WWII, and in the twilight of an age of Empire, why should it not have rivalled Britain and the US, from the Russian point of view? And now the empires have mostly crumbled. I imagine you'll see Russia apologizing about the same time England, France, Spain, etc. apologize for their empire-building.
Precisely.
An excellent assessment.
R.James said:
A. You have to try to look at it from the RF's point of view. Why should they not sell uranium to Iran? They don't have a problem with Iran. They want Iran to be their friend. Lots of countries who are not their friend have nuclear weapons or at least nuclear asiprations. Iran is probably going to get nukes one way or another, so they might as well get them from the RF, and feel kindly toward the RF once they have them, yes?
B. Sure, the US is not an enemy now. It might be an enemy in the future, though. And even if it never is, it might give away its missile defence system to some other country, and then where would the RF be left? Vulnerable and obsolete. Best to develop a way of penetrating such a shield now, so as to render such a shield null, so that no one will think they can strike at the RF with impugnity.
And I don't think Putin would be entirely averse to souring relations with the US a bit. He certainly doesn't want another Cold War - the RF simply can't afford it right now - but he would probably welcome a perceived tension between the RF and the US. Russia has always done best when she has someone to defy...it draws the people together (the RF, like the USSR and the Empire before it, is quite diverse in point of view and experience, not to mention ethnicity, and tends to fall into infighting not infrequently) and it makes the leader look bold and dashing. You have to remember that Russia was a superpower. The people miss being a superpower. They miss being respected, even if that respect was based on military formidibilty. Russia has never been able to dazzle the West with its culture or even its goods...it has always been treated like the idiot cousin, and has developed something of a complex over this...a sort of geo-political "short-man" syndrome. The people like a leader who is willing to bite his thumb at the West.
jurand said:
Well, the Yalta Convention was bought with the blood of the Red Army. The USSR paid dearly in WWII, and in the twilight of an age of Empire, why should it not have rivalled Britain and the US, from the Russian point of view? And now the empires have mostly crumbled. I imagine you'll see Russia apologizing about the same time England, France, Spain, etc. apologize for their empire-building.
I don't think it's that stupid. Not phrased very well, perhaps, and unsubtle, but not exactly in CRAZY LAND. The RF has a problem with a lot of its Muslim population, not because they are Muslims, but because they are in volatile regions. If the RF can be friends with Muslim nations, it may be able to use connections more effectively to infiltrate separatist and/or terrorist movements, and/or to head off supply. It might also serve as a kind of good-will gesture to the peaceful Islamic regions of the RF (which do exist, you know...Tatarstan, for example).Jaruzelski said:
the Colonel said:
Precisely.
An excellent assessment.
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thats the brunt of it isn't it? russian's are proud, unbelievably proud, even ludicrously proud at times. Now the question of whether the russians are right in building the ICBM's capable of penetrating the missile shield, now thats a bit much isn't it? Considering that they stand as the second largest weapons manufacturing nation in the world and have a rocketry and nuclear industry of course their gonna want to be able to cripple any nation who has such a defense, wasn't that the point of nukes to begin with? Something so powerful as to make blitzgrek obsolete? Now why would they use such ICBM's? im sure only to defend their own national soveregnty. Their not spiteful people, simply vindictive.
Like of course Russia is powerful and influencial. Haven't any of you ever seen an American movie? now the villian, at least 1/4 of the time is a russian, or a soviet, but to the rest of the world, and Russian and Soviet are the same thing.
russian's are proud, unbelievably proud, even ludicrously proud at times. Now the question of whether the russians are right in building the ICBM's capable of penetrating the missile shield, now thats a bit much isn't it? Considering that they stand as the second largest weapons manufacturing nation in the world and have a rocketry and nuclear industry of course their gonna want to be able to cripple any nation who has such a defense, wasn't that the point of nukes to begin with? Something so powerful as to make blitzgrek obsolete? Now why would they use such ICBM's? im sure only to defend their own national soveregnty. Their not spiteful people, simply vindictive.Like of course Russia is powerful and influencial. Haven't any of you ever seen an American movie? now the villian, at least 1/4 of the time is a russian, or a soviet, but to the rest of the world, and Russian and Soviet are the same thing.
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b_hebrew
Active Member
You won't read it anywhere in the states....but we attempted a coup in Venezuela in 2002, i think.
Russia has sent them around 20 brand new migs with the "sunburn" missle. Brazil has some.....Cuba has some. They can take off from a dirt strip. These new missles fly at 20 feet above the sea and can take out ships in the gulf, even as high as St. Pete from Cuba.
If we **** Russia off enough, they may start picking off our oil tankers.....ALL of which come in through the gulf
Russia has sent them around 20 brand new migs with the "sunburn" missle. Brazil has some.....Cuba has some. They can take off from a dirt strip. These new missles fly at 20 feet above the sea and can take out ships in the gulf, even as high as St. Pete from Cuba.
If we **** Russia off enough, they may start picking off our oil tankers.....ALL of which come in through the gulf
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b_hebrew said:
Doubtful. At least under Putin. He's more into political machinations than military ones. I don't doubt he'd try to imply that he might start picking off tankers, but I cannot see him doing it.
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Pentecostal Boy
C.S. Lewis/Tolkien Nerd
Doorak said:
It's probably from cold War times that your talking about therefore it would have Cold War over tones like Rockie and Bullwinkle did with Borris and Natasha.
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Pentecostal Boy said:
Not so limited. I can think of many American post-Soviet movies where the Eastern Europeans are the baddies. Can't recall whether the bad guys were supposed to be ethnically Russian, though. Not that most Westerners distinguish between ethnic Russians and peoples of the Russian Empire/USSR/Russian Federation.
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Pentecostal Boy
C.S. Lewis/Tolkien Nerd
It's probably because of the sometimes " exagerated " Russian accent that if you in a certain why sounds moniacal----(can't spell
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one love
Well-Known Member
How bout C? Russia is selling uranium to Iran (your A), but not in the sense you and I think. They are setting up Iran so that they may develop an excuse to attack Iran for this misdeed and use the ICBMs (your B) they have been tinkering around with ever since the Americans beat them to von Braun and several V-2 factors after the Third Reichs fall.
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one love said:
LOL...I'm sorry. But the very idea of Putin invading another country...
There's no benefit in invading. It does not help the Russian economy. And public sentiment is very, very, very anti-war.
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Pentecostal Boy said:It's probably because of the sometimes " exagerated " Russian accent that if you in a certain why sounds moniacal----(can't spell
At least it doesn't sound weak and mealymouthed.
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Pentecostal Boy
C.S. Lewis/Tolkien Nerd
so your saying that we sound weak?By the way don't think that Putin's an angel becuase he's not!
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Pentecostal Boy said:
No, he's not an angel. Which is a good thing, because the RF doen't need an angel right now.
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Milla said:
Russia might need Putin but does the world need him? Maybe that is what it takes to rule a country as large and diverse as Russia in the absence of mature democratic institutions or consciousness.
Russia is a vastly diminished power since the loss of its various Soviet territories but the long term trends point to its reemergence at some point in the future. Its economic growth however in recent years has a lot to do with exports of raw materials like oil or gas rather than development of hi tech industries. Indeed the only hi tech industry of any consequence in Russia is the defence industry. Weapan technology could bring in some roubles but it is a shame the kind of people Russia chooses to sell too.
It is sandwiched between a loose US- European alliance which has dominated the world since the collapse the cold war and a rising China. Its security threats are enormous and the vastness of its territory and coldness of its winters are no longer protection. The development of weapanry that could match the Americans is partly about status I think and partly about the military nature of the Russian mind.
In a way Russia is only a shadow of its former self. This makes it more rather than less sneaky in its opposition to American/European hegomony over the world economic and political orders. Many of the terriritories it has lost to Europe want nothing to do with Russia and this may deepen the divide between it and the West. However the desire to trade with Russia for Russian gas and oil makes it necessary for Europe to seek better relatiosn with Russia.
I think the best outcome in the long run is to look to Russia as a future Western ally against a newly resurgent China. BUt lets wait and see!
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