What is redemption? How is redemptive suffering not an unjust whipping boy?

[Clare73]

So, would you agree that God's justice leads to life?

Think about that which is unjust. Why is it unjust? It's not simply because it is wrong, or against God's will (although both are true), but because it works against life.

Yes, God, in presenting his own Son as a sacrifice for atonement through faith in his blood (sacrificial death) to demonstrate his justice, is the one who both requires justice and satisfies justice (Romans 3:25-26), that he might give eternal life to those who believe in the person and work of his one and only Son (John 3:18).

Think about that which is unjust. Why is it unjust? It's not simply because it is wrong, or against God's will (although both are true), but because it works against life.

It is unjust because it works against giving everyone his due.

 

[Hmm]

The earth is not being transformed. The earth is going to be destroyed by fire, and a new earth will replace it.

Do you believe that we are being transformed by the Holy Spirit right now here on earth and, if so, what would be the point of that if everything we subsequently do in the Spirit is going to be destroyed?

 

[Bobber]

St. John Paul II teaches that through our suffering we can share in Jesus' redemptive suffering and thereby help others achieve salvation.

First you should consider it doesn't necessarily matter what a Pope of the Catholic church would say. How about you just stay with what the Bible says and if you can find such scriptures let's talk about them. And if finding any we can look at the context of how such are meant.

Viewing redemption as "paying a ransom price for sin" implies Satan is a powerful King of Hell who owns sinful souls and is able to withstand God such that God has no choice but to give him tribute (namely, suffering) in exchange for our souls. Yet the Church teaches that Satan is merely a fallen angel who cannot withstand God.

First of all God doesn't owe Satan anything and by the way he's not the King of Hell. He's not in Hell just yet and wants NOTHING to do with that place! Jesus has the keys of death, and hades not him! Rev 1: 18 God is absolute LIFE and absolute LIGHT. Jn 11:25, John 1:5 If something isn't that way there has to be an accounting and God's own justice says it must be death or a separation from him. That's God's justice and has nothing to do with Satan! God however said he'd carry out this justice and the price would be paid...to make men justified.....or to make him just as if he'd never sinned and the righteous blood of Jesus would blot out the sins of all who would embrace that salvation.

Viewing redemption as "atonement for an offense" appears to imply that God was somehow harmed or offended by our sin in a way similar to how we can damage a human's property or social standing.

The word you use "offended" makes it seem God is maybe somewhat over sensitive by allowing darkness, and death (which is really what sin is) to exist. Nope I'd say rather God is a perfectionist and I think we can be glad he is. Can you imagine the electrons of nucleus of an atom not functioning in perfection and in perfect order? Are you saying you wouldn't God to have absolute high standards that he shouldn't always want perfection? The good news for us is he doesn't demand we walk in such in our own strength but it's through the Spirit in us that he'll produce such fruits. Gal 5:22 It's eternal life in us which eventually transforms us to perfection. 2 Cor 3:18 We must ask him to come in causing us to become born again Jn 3:3 For as many as received him to them gave he the right, authority and power to become sons of God. Jn 1:12

 

[Clare73]

Do you believe that we are being transformed by the Holy Spirit right now here on earth and, if so, what would be the point of that if everything we subsequently do in the Spirit is going to be destroyed?

We are being spiritually transformed for our eternal destiny with God in the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness, after the destruction of the heavens by fire and the elements (of earth) melting in the heat (2 Peter 3:12-13).

 

[Hmm]

We are being spiritually transformed for our eternal destiny with God in the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness, after the destruction of the heavens by fire and the elements (of earth) melting in the heat (2 Peter 3:12-13).

People often report that God is changing them in a very real way and they are becoming more Christ-like and leading more constructive lives here on earth. Why would He bother doing all this if it was all going to be swept away and all that mattered is the next life?

 

[Hmm]

We are being spiritually transformed for our eternal destiny with God in the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteousness, after the destruction of the heavens by fire and the elements (of earth) melting in the heat (2 Peter 3:12-13).

interesting discussion. So as not to derail this thread I've created a new one about knidom building under General Theology and your comments would be welcome there...

 

[bling]

If it has to be "kidnapping" for you, then we were "kidnapped" by Adam's sin which was imputed to us (Romans 5:18-19), and for which we are condemned to the second death.

The ransom was paid as a fine to the Divine Court of justice, just as fines are paid to the County Court in the American justice system.

“Courts” are established and changed by the society, which is over the “court”, so a criminal “pays” his debt to society and not the “court”. God is over all courts, if you are going to be paying God you are not paying a ransom.

There is no cosmic “court” out there, God makes perfect well thought-out (taking every exception into consideration) rules. So, you there is no cosmic “Court” to pay but God, but God is not a kidnapper.

“Sin” is not a being, so “sin” cannot take a ransom payment nor can “sin” release a person. The sinner can, so if the sinner accepts the ransom payment, a child goes to the father in the Kingdom.

 

[AetheriusLamia]

I read the first page, and conversation seemed to turn in a direction tangential to my original questions.

Following up here to post the answer I came to after reading a bit from Kreeft & Tacelli's Handbook of Catholic Apologetics and meditating on Isaiah 53; a priest and university chaplain confirmed it was not heterodox:

1. It’s not unjust for God to punish the innocent man Jesus because Jesus is God: One being, God decided to take our punishment Himself, and our punishment wasn’t more than He could bear. (Hence in John’s Gospel Jesus says He lays his life down of His own accord, and has the power to take it up again.)
2. As for why reparation must be made for sin, ‘fixing damage’ (reparation) and ‘paying debt’ are metaphors to refer to Justice, defined as God’s will must be done: and God’s will is good, so evil being a lack of good must be 'filled in' with goodness ultimately.

Then as for our own suffering (reviewing the OP now), I suppose we can accept it as punishment for our sins to purify us so we won't need purgatory, and God gives us the ability to unite it with Jesus' saving sacrifice to participate in His act of redemption to win grace for others.

 

[Clare73]

People often report that God is changing them in a very real way and they are becoming more Christ-like and leading more constructive lives here on earth. Why would He bother doing all this if it was all going to be swept away and all that mattered is the next life?

Did you think you were going to get out this alive?
He's doing it for the next life, the only life that will never end, not for a life that ends.
He's making you, his adopted son, into a true child of the family, with the family traits, mind and character, to be with and in the family forever.

 

[Clare73]

“Courts” are established and changed by the society, which is over the “court”, so a criminal “pays” his debt to society and not the “court”. God is over all courts, if you are going to be paying God you are not paying a ransom.

There is no cosmic “court” out there,

And you know this, how?

God makes perfect well thought-out (taking every exception into consideration) rules. So, you there is no cosmic “Court” to pay but God, but God is not a kidnapper.

But the penalty required by his justice is; i.e., hell.

“Sin” is not a being, so “sin” cannot take a ransom payment nor can “sin” release a person. The sinner can, so if the sinner accepts the ransom payment, a child goes to the father in the Kingdom.

No, God releases the person from the sentence which "kidnaps" (your word) him to hell.

 

[bling]

And you know this, how?

God is sovereign! Like the courts are instruments created by society and subject to society, the Judgement Court of God would be subject to Him.

But the penalty required by his justice is; i.e., hell.

Yes, but children who willingly accept God’s Loving discipline are not “punished” and are disciplined instead.

No, God releases the person from the sentence which "kidnaps" (your word) him to hell.

You said “God releases”, so does that mean God is holding the child back from Himself?

Hell cannot “kidnap” people or take a ransom payment. Those that go to hell earned their way there, so they are not being kidnapped.

 

[Clare73]

God is sovereign! Like the courts are instruments created by society and subject to society, the Judgement Court of God would be subject to Him.

The Judgement Court of God is God. . .Judge, Jury, Sentence and Officer.

Yes, but children who willingly accept God’s Loving discipline are not “punished” and are disciplined instead.

Those sentenced to hell are not his children, not of his family. They are his creatures.

You said “God releases”, so does that mean God is holding the child back from Himself?

Releases from the sentence of condemnation to the second death.

Hell cannot “kidnap” people or take a ransom payment. Those that go to hell earned their way there, so they are not being kidnapped.

"Kidnap" is your idea. "Ransom" does not require kidnapping.
Ransom is to free the prisoner.
We are prisoners of condemnation to the second death, until our fine for law breaking is paid to the Divine Court by Jesus, just as fines for law breaking are paid to the County Court.

 

[Clare73]

interesting discussion. So as not to derail this thread I've created a new one about knidom building under General Theology and your comments would be welcome there...

There are several categories in General Theology. Which one are you in?

 

[bling]

The Judgement Court of God is God. . .Judge, Jury, Sentence and Officer.

OK, which is not some cosmic court out there.

Those sentenced to hell are not his children, not of his family. They are his creatures.

OK, A child is fairly/justly disciplined and those outside the kingdom (home) are punished, because they refused the Loving discipline.

Releases from the sentence of condemnation to the second death.

"Kidnap" is your idea. "Ransom" does not require kidnapping.
Ransom is to free the prisoner.
We are prisoners of condemnation to the second death, until our fine for law breaking is paid to the Divine Court by Jesus, just as fines for law breaking are paid to the County Court.

Again, you have this “Divine Court” which you just got through saying is “God”, holding us prisoners needing a ransom payment (that is what the Bible calls it). There is no cosmic rule out there saying God cannot forgive without a payment, as we can surmise from “The Judgement Court of God is God. . .Judge, Jury, Sentence and Officer.” God as a wonderful Loving Father would easily forgive and sees to our just loving discipline if possible.

God is not the jailer of His children and a huge bloody ransom would not be paid to Him.

Ransom can refer to a small reasonable tax or payment which can be paid by the person themselves.

But this ransom is huge beyond believe (no tax or slave payment), the person set free was previously bound (held captive and not just held in servitude

.

 

[public hermit]

It is unjust because it works against giving everyone his due.

And his/her due is the life God gave them. God forgive us our debts. And, our only debt owed is love (Paul). God forgive us the debt of love we owe, for we have acted against life and dishonor you. God's justice is obtained when the life God created obtains. Anything short of that is not just.

 

[CleanSoul]

Then as for our own suffering

God is all knowing, and will allow suffering if there is a greater good down the road. He can make good things out of the bad.

God gives us the ability to unite it with Jesus' saving sacrifice to participate in His act of redemption to win grace for others.

I'm reminded of St. Veronica, who offered her cloth so Jesus could wipe his face. Or, St. Simon of Cyrene, who carried his cross.

Kreeft & Tacelli's Handbook of Catholic Apologetics

It sounds like it would be a good read. Kreeft is one of my favorites.

 

[misput]

What does the blood represent, to you?

To me, the blood (spilt) represents loss of life, i.e. the life is in the blood. The sacrifice is that Christ entered the human condition and rectified it from within, which included the full consequences of human sin, death.

Maybe all that's obvious, but I do wonder what others think the blood means.

Blood represents life and giving of ones time or assets accumulated over time ie animals, money, to others is a Christ like principle, even to the point of dying for others as did Christ. Giving is the true meaning of love. I have heard the Hebrew meaning of love is, I give, as we sometimes see in the King James bible ie charity.

 

[Hmm]

There are several categories in General Theology. Which one are you in?

It was in the root section but it was about as popular as a rattle snake in a lucky dip!

 

[fhansen]

St. John Paul II teaches that through our suffering we can share in Jesus' redemptive suffering and thereby help others achieve salvation.

J. Sollier defines redemption as either 1) paying a ransom price for sin or 2) atonement for an offense.

Together this raises two questions:

1. How is redemptive suffering not an unjust whipping boy (punishing one person for another man's sin)?
2. How are we to understand redemption?

Regarding #1, my impression is that an all-powerful being who knows everything is refusing to provide more assistance until he's made someone suffer: This being does not appear to be a loving Father as Jesus declares, but rather vindictive and capricious as Mohammed declares.

Regarding #2, both of Sollier's definitions contradict the faith:

1. Viewing redemption as "paying a ransom price for sin" implies Satan is a powerful King of Hell who owns sinful souls and is able to withstand God such that God has no choice but to give him tribute (namely, suffering) in exchange for our souls. Yet the Church teaches that Satan is merely a fallen angel who cannot withstand God.

2. Viewing redemption as "atonement for an offense" appears to imply that God was somehow harmed or offended by our sin in a way similar to how we can damage a human's property or social standing. Yet the Church teaches that God is both perfect and impassible: God cannot be offended or harmed.
So I am left bewildered by this apparently incoherent and contradictory teaching of "redemption" and "redemptive suffering". Would you please clarify these matters?

Edit: Here are answers I arrived at.

Sin is an anomaly in creation, an offense against truth and reason, and therefore against the Creator. He knows that sin is bad for us-and His love opposes that harm, that evil, by its nature. Sin, disobedience of God, causes suffering, and God, having given man the freedom to choose good over evil, obedience over disobedience, allows the evil that results from the abuse of that freedom, for now, for a season, for His purposes, desiring man to ultimately choose rightly, aligning his will with His perfect wisdom and will, with the help of grace but not by force or determinism: God wants man's will involved.

Jesus was to endure the suffering caused by the most basic sin: the jealousy and hatred and rejection of our Creator; men preferred darkness over light and innocence. "They hated Me without reason", He says, quoting Psalms. Anyway, that was God hanging on the cross, willingly suffering in human flesh as a sacrifice which demonstrates an unfathomable love for His creation so that we might finally turn and be drawn back to Him as we embrace that love, that light, for ourselves rather than the darkness that men prefer. Rather than prevent or squash darkness like a bug He triumphs over man's attempt to squash His light and his love with the resurrection. We think we must hang on to our lives; He says to let them go, to die to this world. When we sacrifice in some manner or another for the good of others or in taking a stand for truth and righteousness we will suffer in this world too-and so our sufferings join His in that opposition to evil-and the advancement of good. If there was no sin/moral evil the primary cause of suffering would disappear. He wants us to choose.

The atonement is about God's ultimate appeal to man, to bring reconciliation, at-one-ment. God is patient and kind, and willing to endure what it takes to turn His creation back from the waywardness it chose-and continues to choose-even though He in no way deserved...what it took.

 

[Clare73]

It was in the root section but it was about as popular as a rattle snake in a lucky dip!

You'll have to send me the link, I can't find it.

As someone whom I respect in this forum said: This life is not about this life.