What is reality, what foundation do you use for your beliefs?

[StormyOne]

Fair enough, Stormy.

Can you help me understand the process that you use to develop a point of view on a subject, particularly a subject that relates in some way to God? For example, to what natural, literary or personal resources do you refer? How do you decide?

BFA

BFA, you would have to know that the answer to your question is not a simple one. Remember, my background, 4th generation sda, so long before I could develop my own views about God, I was taught what the sda culture usually teaches about God, church, etc... As I begin to develop the ability to think for myself, especially in the area of theology, I noticed that everything was not as simple and neat as I was taught... So initially, (and from time to time) the starting point for me regarding a subject that involves God, was one of rejection of the traditional view and an attempt to see if there were alternative views...

Example: The church teaches that one must tithe, and in so doing he/she will be blessed. Refuse to tithe and one risks curses, problems etc.... So, when I began to think about that issue, I said, what kind of God refuses to bless you because you don't put money in church? I stopped tithing to see what would happen....then I began to seriously study the tithing concept, why it was implemented, how it was done in ancient times etc.... all of that led me to my view about tithing....

So I suppose you can say I start with an analysis of the traditional view to see if it is reasonable, if not, its rejected and I have a basis for the rejection, or if I incorporate it into my views there is a rationale for it....

With the bible issue, the initial question was, "who said it was the word of God?" Then came the exploration and dissection of the process of how we the bible came to be....

Does that help?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

BFA, you would have to know that the answer to your question is not a simple one.

Simple or complex -- either is fine by me.

Remember, my background, 4th generation sda, so long before I could develop my own views about God, I was taught what the sda culture usually teaches about God, church, etc... As I begin to develop the ability to think for myself, especially in the area of theology, I noticed that everything was not as simple and neat as I was taught...

I can fully relate so far.

So initially, (and from time to time) the starting point for me regarding a subject that involves God, was one of rejection of the traditional view and an attempt to see if there were alternative views...

OK. On this point, our history differs. However, I can sympathize with your conclusion.

Example: The church teaches that one must tithe, and in so doing he/she will be blessed. Refuse to tithe and one risks curses, problems etc.... So, when I began to think about that issue, I said, what kind of God refuses to bless you because you don't put money in church? I stopped tithing to see what would happen....then I began to seriously study the tithing concept, why it was implemented, how it was done in ancient times etc.... all of that led me to my view about tithing....

This is interesting. Tithing was one of the early subjects that triggered some questions in my mind.

So I suppose you can say I start with an analysis of the traditional view to see if it is reasonable, if not, its rejected and I have a basis for the rejection, or if I incorporate it into my views there is a rationale for it....

With the bible issue, the initial question was, "who said it was the word of God?" Then came the exploration and dissection of the process of how we the bible came to be....

Does that help?

It does help. Thanks. It sounds as though you make decisions based on your understanding of what is reasonable. I'd guess that we all do that on some level, though some of us may be a bit less willing to admit it.

Is it possible that there is a spectrum of understanding on this subject -- that perhaps this subject involves more shades than merely black and white? I submit that, on one end of the spectrum is the person who believes that the Bible is the only authoritative source of information on every subject. Perhaps on the other end of the spectrum is the person who believes that the Bible provides no useful information on any subject. If such a spectrum is possible, it would seem that neither of us fits neatly within the extremes. Would you agree?

BFA

 

[StormyOne]

Simple or complex -- either is fine by me.



I can fully relate so far.



OK. On this point, our history differs. However, I can sympathize with your conclusion.



This is interesting. Tithing was one of the early subjects that triggered some questions in my mind.



It does help. Thanks. It sounds as though you make decisions based on your understanding of what is reasonable. I'd guess that we all do that on some level, though some of us may be a bit less willing to admit it.

Is it possible that there is a spectrum of understanding on this subject -- that perhaps this subject involves more shades than merely black and white? I submit that, on one end of the spectrum is the person who believes that the Bible is the only authoritative source of information on every subject. Perhaps on the other end of the spectrum is the person who believes that the Bible provides no useful information on any subject. If such a spectrum is possible, it would seem that neither of us fits neatly within the extremes. Would you agree?

BFA

Yes I would agree... and thank you for taking the time to understand my view...

 

[Hotpepper]

With the bible issue, the initial question was, "who said it was the word of God?" Then came the exploration and dissection of the process of how we the bible came to be.... Does that help?

I think we are getting ahead of ourselves. We should examine each one of these with real evidence and truth. I'm not a believer in blind faith. God gave us the minds to increase knowledge and through reasoning we are able to evaluate every piece of evidence with truth. Nobody should believe a thought in their mind, or hold to it in their heart unless every thought, tradition, and belief is ejected out and never let back in again unless it can be evaluated by evidence and truth by using our God-given minds to reason and process information or knowledge.

First, I believe that every single Christian has the responsibility to take time out of their lives and study deeply into the accuracy, authenticity and sufficiency of the Scriptures. From every angle, even the other side. Since we know that truth will always prevail through Christ, as long as we continue to seek with a sincere heart using love to guide. There should be nothing to fear in studying both sides. The opposite perspective usually presents questions. These questions I look at as inspiration to learn something new. One question to me is worth more than a thousand facts. I believe that the truth will always be found if I search diligently enough. My rejection of blind faith gives me no reason to believe anything otherwise. However there is one exception. Everything rests upon the foundation of the singular - plurality of God: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. The existence, power and sovereignty of God is unquestionable.

I by no means have all the answers so I'm hoping for some massive participation here from both sides. Anyway, I think we should slow down a bit a take one thing at a time but its really up to you all. Anyway I'm gonna attempt to answer that one question and then go to bed.

It was Jesus that said it was the Word of God.

"Now He [Jesus] said to them, 'These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.' Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures. " (Luke 24:44-45)

And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. (Luke 4:4)

Well I'll start with the OT because it is the easiest

Jesus and all of the Apostles read and quoted out of the Greek translation of the Old Testament, commonly called the Septuagint LXX. Which by the way had differences and variations from the Hebrew. If the Lord Jesus Himself and His disciples did not think the existence of these differences meant the Word had been corrupted, we shouldn't either. There is a big difference between the issue of transmission and inerrancy.

 

[Avonia]

First, I believe that every single Christian has the responsibility to take time out of their lives and study deeply into the accuracy, authenticity and sufficiency of the Scriptures.

I love it! I assume that includes taking a look at the:

Śruti
Qur'an
Satkhandāgama
Daozang
Avesta
Tipitaka

 

[Avonia]

Is there any aspect of who I am that God did not speak into existence?

Yesterday, I lost my patience with my kids and I yelled at them in a way that made them cry. I sense that God did not speak my outburst into existence. I sense that my behavior in that moment was not precisely as God meant it to be.

BFA

What about when a star explodes? Or when an avalanche comes ripping down, taking out all the trees and a few animals along the way? Or when a newly-hatched sea turtle doesn't make it into the water?

We often describe "goodness" in a way that is devoid of creative tension.

The beauty of the situation you describe is the opportunity for you to learn, and for your kids to watch you grow. This may be a much bigger gift of love to both of you than not having the incident happen at all. The point is not eliminating all tough rubs from their lives - the point is to love them and seek to do no harm.

However, if you outsource the responsibility to "sin" you will likely learn very little. What you experienced is natural for an emotional creature. The opportunity, as we've talked about in other threads, is understanding more about your emotional nature and expressing greater choice.

When you individuated, you experienced a space between God and you. That's a big deal, and that sense of separation is our most primal fear.

 

[StormyOne]

I think we are getting ahead of ourselves. We should examine each one of these with real evidence and truth. I'm not a believer in blind faith. God gave us the minds to increase knowledge and through reasoning we are able to evaluate every piece of evidence with truth. Nobody should believe a thought in their mind, or hold to it in their heart unless every thought, tradition, and belief is ejected out and never let back in again unless it can be evaluated by evidence and truth by using our God-given minds to reason and process information or knowledge.

So far so good.....

First, I believe that every single Christian has the responsibility to take time out of their lives and study deeply into the accuracy, authenticity and sufficiency of the Scriptures. From every angle, even the other side. Since we know that truth will always prevail through Christ, as long as we continue to seek with a sincere heart using love to guide.

That is an assumption you are making and attempting to apply it universally. You don't know that for certain, likewise you believe in Christ through faith even though there is little to no evidence that he ever existed aside from the narrative we find in the bible.... are you willing to admit that?

There should be nothing to fear in studying both sides. The opposite perspective usually presents questions. These questions I look at as inspiration to learn something new. One question to me is worth more than a thousand facts. I believe that the truth will always be found if I search diligently enough. My rejection of blind faith gives me no reason to believe anything otherwise.

I agree that God is big enough to handle whatever questions we may have....

However there is one exception. Everything rests upon the foundation of the singular - plurality of God: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. The existence, power and sovereignty of God is unquestionable.

You must add the disclaimer, that everything to YOU rests upon the foundation of the singular-plurality of God... I believe that there is One God. Just one... He may manifest himself in myriad ways, but there is One God....

I by no means have all the answers so I'm hoping for some massive participation here from both sides. Anyway, I think we should slow down a bit a take one thing at a time but its really up to you all. Anyway I'm gonna attempt to answer that one question and then go to bed.

No one has all the answers, but we are exploring all the possibilities....

It was Jesus that said it was the Word of God.
Well I'll start with the OT because it is the easiest

Was it? How do you know that?

Jesus and all of the Apostles read and quoted out of the Greek translation of the Old Testament, commonly called the Septuagint LXX. Which by the way had differences and variations from the Hebrew. If the Lord Jesus Himself and His disciples did not think the existence of these differences meant the Word had been corrupted, we shouldn't either. There is a big difference between the issue of transmission and inerrancy.

Again how do you know that to be a fact? There are quite a few biblical language scholars who would disagree with your assertion that "the word" has not been corrupted... In fact it has been edited, repackaged, by people unknown though attributed to recognizable names i.e. Hebrews attributed to Paul but not written by Paul... so while I hear what you are saying, I also believe you are making assumptions that you accept via faith but cannot withstand the scrutiny of examination...

 

[Byfaithalone1]

What about when a star explodes? Or when an avalanche comes ripping down, taking out all the trees and a few animals along the way? Or when a newly-hatched sea turtle doesn't make it into the water?

I conclude that not all events were designed and put in motion by God. Some occur as a natural result of things that happen along the way (such as choices that are made).

Therefore, I conclude that it is possible that events like the ones you've described may not be a part of what God preferred.

We often describe "goodness" in a way that is devoid of creative tension.

This doesn't fit within my understanding of the subject.

The beauty of the situation you describe is the opportunity for you to learn, and for your kids to watch you grow. This may be a much bigger gift of love to both of you than not having the incident happen at all. The point is not eliminating all tough rubs from their lives - the point is to love them and seek to do no harm.

Perhaps. I certainly agree that beauty can come from ashes.

However, if you outsource the responsibility to "sin" you will likely learn very little. What you experienced is natural for an emotional creature. The opportunity, as we've talked about in other threads, is understanding more about your emotional nature and expressing greater choice.

There are a few questions that I'd like to explore in the interest of looking at this subject from a variety of vantage points. For the sake of discussion, I'd like to continue with my example.

1. If I yell at my kinds in a way that crushes their spirit, have I sinned?

2. Did God design my sin or did I use the liberty I've been given to explore my own path -- outside of what He might have preferred?

3. If beauty results from my sin, does it follow that the same beauty could not have resulted through another means -- without my sin?

4. If beauty results from my sin, does this mean that I created the beauty or does God have something to do with it? If so, what is His role?
​

I suspect that there aspects of who I am that God did not speak into existence.

BFA

 

[Hotpepper]

I love it! I assume that includes taking a look at the:

Śruti
Qur'an
Satkhandāgama
Daozang
Avesta
Tipitaka

Well since this is a Christian forum, discussions of the sources of dharma, the religion of Islam, Digambara texts, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, or Buddhism would be quite out of place.

 

[StormyOne]

Well since this is a Christian forum, discussions of the sources of dharma, the religion of Islam, Digambara texts, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, or Buddhism would be quite out of place.

No not at all IF we are really interested in finding "truth" wherever it may be found.... or are you suggesting that only christians have the "truth?"

 

[Avonia]

Well since this is a Christian forum, discussions of the sources of dharma, the religion of Islam, Digambara texts, Taoism, Zoroastrianism, or Buddhism would be quite out of place.

Interesting. It seems that understanding concepts in Zoroastrianism would be useful in understanding Christianity.

 

[Avonia]

There are a few questions that I'd like to explore in the interest of looking at this subject from a variety of vantage points. For the sake of discussion, I'd like to continue with my example.

1. If I yell at my kinds in a way that crushes their spirit, have I sinned?

2. Did God design my sin or did I use the liberty I've been given to explore my own path -- outside of what He might have preferred?

3. If beauty results from my sin, does it follow that the same beauty could not have resulted through another means -- without my sin?

4. If beauty results from my sin, does this mean that I created the beauty or does God have something to do with it? If so, what is His role?
​

I suspect that there aspects of who I am that God did not speak into existence.

BFA

These are excellent questions.

 

[Hotpepper]

That is an assumption you are making and attempting to apply it universally. You don't know that for certain, likewise you believe in Christ through faith even though there is little to no evidence that he ever existed aside from the narrative we find in the bible.... are you willing to admit that?

You mean other than:

The Qur'an - Surah 3:38-48; Surah 19:30-35

The Jewish Talmud - Sanhedrin 43a, 67a and 107b; Sotah 47a and Shabbath 104b and 116b

Cyril Contra Julian, VI, 191, 213

Pagan Emperor Julian the Apostate - "Jesus, whom you celebrate, was one of Caesar's subjects. If you dispute it, I will prove it.....for yourselves allow that he was enrolled by his father and mother at the time of Cyrenius." (Lardner, Works, 7:626-27)

Anti-Christian Emperor Julian the Apostate was referring to the record which was filed from the occurrence found in Luke 2:1-8.

Flavius Josephus' (Historian under the Pagan Roman Emperor Vespasian -Antiquities of the Jews)

You must add the disclaimer, that everything to YOU rests upon the foundation of the singular-plurality of God... I believe that there is One God. Just one... He may manifest himself in myriad ways, but there is One God....

Ah, so your perspective is from Unitarianism?

Was it? How do you know that?

Are you aware of a single manuscript from any of the 5,300 copies of the Greek manuscripts of the New Testament that substantiates that He didn't say it?

Again how do you know that to be a fact? There are quite a few biblical language scholars who would disagree...

Here lies our point of departure. First of all there are biblical scholars who are atheists, gnostic, minimalist, maximalist, etc... Their positions are their own. Many maximalist scholars are guilty for extending far beyond the scope of what is actually written adding much annotation into certain contexts where the Scriptures are silent. Likewise there are scholars who, on the flip-side of this equation, deny much of what is written because of the dissension between their ideals and what the Scriptures actually say. However the bible teaches us to put our trust into God and not the wisdom of men. We should ourselves become scholars and individually search for the truth with the love of God.

....disagree with your assertion that "the word" has not been corrupted... In fact it has been edited, repackaged, by people unknown though attributed to recognizable names i.e. Hebrews attributed to Paul but not written by Paul...

So then lets look at some of these and see how they measure up. We will let the truth determine the results.

so while I hear what you are saying, I also believe you are making assumptions that you accept via faith but cannot withstand the scrutiny of examination...

I know it is hard to determine another's emotion in these posts but I want to assure you Stormy that I am not in the least bit attacking you or being defensive for that matter. I'm not trying to pretend that I have all the answers either but instead, I'm looking at this as an inspiration for things to seek out and find the truth about because in the end it isn't about what anyone else says or how we feel about things, its the truth that sets us free. Isn't it worth all of the footwork, invested time and effort that everything we commit as a belief in our hearts should withstand the scrutiny of examination?

 

[Hotpepper]

Interesting. It seems that understanding concepts in Zoroastrianism would be useful in understanding Christianity.

Well then if you think it will be useful then we'll go there as well.

 

[StormyOne]

You mean other than:

The Qur'an - Surah 3:38-48; Surah 19:30-35

The Jewish Talmud - Sanhedrin 43a, 67a and 107b; Sotah 47a and Shabbath 104b and 116b

Cyril Contra Julian, VI, 191, 213

Pagan Emperor Julian the Apostate - "Jesus, whom you celebrate, was one of Caesar's subjects. If you dispute it, I will prove it.....for yourselves allow that he was enrolled by his father and mother at the time of Cyrenius." (Lardner, Works, 7:626-27)

Anti-Christian Emperor Julian the Apostate was referring to the record which was filed from the occurrence found in Luke 2:1-8.

Flavius Josephus' (Historian under the Pagan Roman Emperor Vespasian -Antiquities of the Jews)

Josephus' writing is in dispute and has been for some time. However, I believe you know that... As for the other sources, repeating the traditional "myth" does not make it true.... My point is that you believe what you do through faith, and I suspect that even with a mountain of evidence to the contrary, you would continue to believe as you do.... That's cool, I respect that, I just don't share your view....

Ah, so your perspective is from Unitarianism?

No my belief is from thinking about the issue and deciding what made sense for me...

Are you aware of a single manuscript from any of the 5,300 copies of the Greek manuscripts of the New Testament that substantiates that He didn't say it?

circular argument... in essence you are saying the sources included in the bible say that Jesus said what he said... not working for me...

Here lies our point of departure. First of all there are biblical scholars who are atheists, gnostic, minimalist, maximalist, etc... Their positions are their own. Many maximalist scholars are guilty for extending far beyond the scope of what is actually written adding much annotation into certain contexts where the Scriptures are silent. Likewise there are scholars who, on the flip-side of this equation, deny much of what is written because of the dissension between their ideals and what the Scriptures actually say. However the bible teaches us to put our trust into God and not the wisdom of men. We should ourselves become scholars and individually search for the truth with the love of God.

In essence you've confirmed what I said earlier... whatever the evidence you will believe what you now believe... cool.... I am not attempting to dissuade you...

So then lets look at some of these and see how they measure up. We will let the truth determine the results.

if you are not a scholar in biblical languages, or were granted an interview with God himself, I am not sure we will get to "the truth."

I know it is hard to determine another's emotion in these posts but I want to assure you Stormy that I am not in the least bit attacking you or being defensive for that matter. I'm not trying to pretend that I have all the answers either but instead, I'm looking at this as an inspiration for things to seek out and find the truth about because in the end it isn't about what anyone else says or how we feel about things, its the truth that sets us free. Isn't it worth all of the footwork, invested time and effort that everything we commit as a belief in our hearts should withstand the scrutiny of examination?

As I've said elsewhere, belief will always trump evidence because usually what we belief via faith will not be discarded because of evidence?