What is Real?

[akaDaScribe]

I wanted to put this under philosophy, but it no longer exists and I’m not sure where else to put it that would allow everyone to express their views.

I don’t want to limit the responses to just my initial question but, rather to understand different perspectives of reality, what is real, how it works, what it means, etc.

First questions:

What is real?
Does something have to be tangible to be real?

 

[Neogaia777]

I wanted to put this under philosophy, but it no longer exists and I’m not sure where else to put it that would allow everyone to express their views.

I don’t want to limit the responses to just my initial question but, rather to understand different perspectives of reality, what is real, how it works, what it means, etc.

First questions:

What is real?
Does something have to be tangible to be real?

Define tangible...? Real how...? In what way, what is real to flesh, or what is real to the spirit...? (and which is more real), (Anyway), or, both...?

Would someone, a being, in and from a higher reality, think our reality, and perhaps us, or some of us, not really real of not...?

Right now we have to deal with and live in a reality with/and/of the flesh, but I would say that's the not really real one...

For beings, to possess a (individual) (independent) consciousness and maybe a free will, in some form, (or were offered a choice, if only aware of it at a nearly unconscious level), (as the Matrix architect would put it)...

But what does it mean to be a conscious...?

God Bless!

 

[akaDaScribe]

Tangible: that which is detectable by physical means.
Is that a good definition?

 

[John Bowen]

No man has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven.John 3 :13 Only our real selves can pass through those gates . The old saying you can't take it with you very true .War, poverty , all the things going on here are not real .The are evil (energy veil ) that separates us only in our consciousness from heaven which is real so they are unreal. That's the purpose of free will to allow people to out play whatever they want.Until they are ready for something more and follow the path the way that Jesus taught to the disciples.

 

[akaDaScribe]

No man has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven.John 3 :13 Only our real selves can pass through those gates . The old saying you can't take it with you very true .War, poverty , all the things going on here are not real .The are evil (energy veil ) that separates us only in our consciousness from heaven which is real so they are unreal. That's the purpose of free will to allow people to out play whatever they want.Until they are ready for something more and follow the path the way that Jesus taught to the disciples.

Are you saying there are degrees of real? That some things are less real than others?

 

[Greg J.]

Some food for thought.

I think, therefore I am. - René Descartes

Is thinking real in your mind? Ideas and concepts? Are they tangible? You can claim they are real because they are a particular arrangement of neural memory and synapses, but as far as I know, that is a theory based on what we know, but has not been scientifically proven. (Where is a map of someone's synapses showing what the person is thinking?) However we could say that ideas are real, because we experience them—assuming you think the ideas are in a real person. (Contrast with asking if Santa Claus' ideas are real.)

If we're in the Matrix (from the movie, The Matrix), is what we are experiencing "real?" I believe you are asking a question that only has subjective perspectives, rather than a logical and objective proof. i.e., there is no provable single definition of "real."

Does anyone have a piece of dark matter? Some scientists believe the universe must have more tangible mass than we have observed to explain other measured phenomena. As a result, there "must" be as-of-yet undetected dark matter. But that is just a theory to explain observed phenomena. Would you consider dark matter real?

You may find it comforting to believe that if it isn't tangible then it isn't real, but it is not possible to prove that assertion. The best you can do is to say that is what you believe.

On the other hand, you could say that God is real and everything he created is real, whether tangible or not, and that may very well be true, but we still wouldn't be able to prove it scientifically—nor theologically (as far as I know). God does not specifically say that there is nothing else other than himself and what he created, but says this:

For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. (Colossians 1:16, 1984 NIV)

If you believe heaven is real, does that mean it must have a location in our physical universe? If it doesn't, is it real?

 

[drjean]

https://www.christianforums.com/forums/philosophy.567/

I'm wondering about the 'tangible' statement too... are you saying it has to be physically measurable to be real?

I can't think of anything not measurable right now.

As for varying degrees of hell? Yeah.

the Bible is clear that with greater revelation and responsibility comes stricter judgment (cf. James 3:1). Jesus warned the Pharisees that they would “be punished most severely” for their willful hypocrisy (Luke 20:47). In denouncing the cities where most of his miracles had been performed, Jesus said, “Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes” (Matthew 11:21). Thus, said Jesus, “It will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you” (v. 22).Jesus used the metaphor of physical torture to warn his hearers that those who knowingly disobey will experience greater torment in hell than those who disobey in ignorance (Luke 12:47–48).
http://www.equip.org/bible_answers/are-there-degrees-of-punishment-in-hell/

And I recall His disdain for those who abuse children...​

 

[Serving Zion]

Tangible: that which is detectable by physical means.
Is that a good definition?

I think tangible includes some element of being subject to manipulation - if we can perceive it and measure it, but not control it so as to be able to rely upon our ability to produce it at will, then it is rather more elusive than tangible .. despite that it is known to be real.

 

[akaDaScribe]

I think tangible includes some element of being subject to manipulation - if we can perceive it and measure it, but not control it so as to be able to rely upon our ability to produce it at will, then it is rather more elusive than tangible .. despite that it is known to be real.

hmmm... do you have an example of this?

 

[Serving Zion]

I recall His disdain for those who abuse children...

I would like to have this at hand, could you kindly compile the list of scriptures you have in mind?

 

[Serving Zion]

hmmm... do you have an example of this?

Not exactly! .. I am only discussing the language .. perhaps that is an example in itself..

 

[akaDaScribe]

Some food for thought.

I think, therefore I am. - René Descartes

Is thinking real in your mind? Ideas and concepts? Are they tangible? You can claim they are real because they are a particular arrangement of neural memory and synapses, but as far as I know, that is a theory based on what we know, but has not been scientifically proven. (Where is a map of someone's synapses showing what the person is thinking?) However we could say that ideas are real, because we experience them—assuming you think the ideas are in a real person. (Contrast with asking if Santa Claus' ideas are real.)

If we're in the Matrix (from the movie, The Matrix), is what we are experiencing "real?" I believe you are asking a question that only has subjective perspectives, rather than a logical and objective proof. i.e., there is no provable single definition of "real."

Does anyone have a piece of dark matter? Some scientists believe the universe must have more tangible mass than we have observed to explain other measured phenomena. As a result, there "must" be as-of-yet undetected dark matter. But that is just a theory to explain observed phenomena. Would you consider dark matter real?

You may find it comforting to believe that if it isn't tangible then it isn't real, but it is not possible to prove that assertion. The best you can do is to say that is what you believe.

On the other hand, you could say that God is real and everything he created is real, whether tangible or not, and that may very well be true, but we still wouldn't be able to prove it scientifically—nor theologically (as far as I know). God does not specifically say that there is nothing else other than himself and what he created, but says this:

For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. (Colossians 1:16, 1984 NIV)

If you believe heaven is real, does that mean it must have a location in our physical universe? If it doesn't, is it real?

I love these discussions.
I'm trying to establish definitions up front for this discussion by perfecting some definitions. I have to go out for a bit, but I'll respond to your points a little later.

 

[akaDaScribe]

Not exactly! .. I am only discussing the language .. perhaps that is an example in itself..

lol

Isn't it funny how the most basic words are the hardest to define?

 

[Neogaia777]

Tangible: that which is detectable by physical means.
Is that a good definition?

Oh? Are you talking about what you can feel, or touch, see, hear, taste or smell...??? (Matrix)...

God Bless!

 

[essentialsaltes]

It's a tough question, so I'll just quote the answer/joke from Philip K Dick.

Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

 

[akaDaScribe]

It's a tough question, so I'll just quote the answer/joke from Philip K Dick.

Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

That's a wonderful quote that subtly jabs the whole "If a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it, does it make a sound?"

 

[akaDaScribe]

Some food for thought.

I think, therefore I am. - René Descartes

Is thinking real in your mind? Ideas and concepts? Are they tangible? You can claim they are real because they are a particular arrangement of neural memory and synapses, but as far as I know, that is a theory based on what we know, but has not been scientifically proven. (Where is a map of someone's synapses showing what the person is thinking?) However we could say that ideas are real, because we experience them—assuming you think the ideas are in a real person. (Contrast with asking if Santa Claus' ideas are real.)

If we're in the Matrix (from the movie, The Matrix), is what we are experiencing "real?" I believe you are asking a question that only has subjective perspectives, rather than a logical and objective proof. i.e., there is no provable single definition of "real."

Does anyone have a piece of dark matter? Some scientists believe the universe must have more tangible mass than we have observed to explain other measured phenomena. As a result, there "must" be as-of-yet undetected dark matter. But that is just a theory to explain observed phenomena. Would you consider dark matter real?

You may find it comforting to believe that if it isn't tangible then it isn't real, but it is not possible to prove that assertion. The best you can do is to say that is what you believe.

On the other hand, you could say that God is real and everything he created is real, whether tangible or not, and that may very well be true, but we still wouldn't be able to prove it scientifically—nor theologically (as far as I know). God does not specifically say that there is nothing else other than himself and what he created, but says this:

For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. (Colossians 1:16, 1984 NIV)

If you believe heaven is real, does that mean it must have a location in our physical universe? If it doesn't, is it real?

Some food for thought.

I think, therefore I am.

- René Descartes

One of the most brilliant statements ever made.

Is thinking real in your mind? Ideas and concepts? Are they tangible? You can claim they are real because they are a particular arrangement of neural memory and synapses, but as far as I know, that is a theory based on what we know, but has not been scientifically proven. (Where is a map of someone's synapses showing what the person is thinking?) However we could say that ideas are real, because we experience them—assuming you think the ideas are in a real person. (Contrast with asking if Santa Claus' ideas are real.)

This is in part, what I hope to explore. If we only define tangible things as real, then we need a bigger word than real or we need to redefine real. The general mindset right now is that if something is not tangible it is not real and that if something is not real then it is imagined, and if it is imagined, it is fiction.

If we're in the Matrix (from the movie, The Matrix), is what we are experiencing "real?" I believe you are asking a question that only has subjective perspectives, rather than a logical and objective proof. i.e., there is no provable single definition of "real."

What does it mean for something to be provable and on what basis does provability accurately define reality?

Does anyone have a piece of dark matter? Some scientists believe the universe must have more tangible mass than we have observed to explain other measured phenomena. As a result, there "must" be as-of-yet undetected dark matter. But that is just a theory to explain observed phenomena. Would you consider dark matter real?

I would call it possible. What is possible? We’ll tackle that one later. Too many things to define as it is. lol

You may find it comforting to believe that if it isn't tangible then it isn't real, but it is not possible to prove that assertion. The best you can do is to say that is what you believe.

On the other hand, you could say that God is real and everything he created is real, whether tangible or not, and that may very well be true, but we still wouldn't be able to prove it scientifically—nor theologically (as far as I know). God does not specifically say that there is nothing else other than himself and what he created, but says this:

For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. (Colossians 1:16, 1984 NIV)



If you believe heaven is real, does that mean it must have a location in our physical universe? If it doesn't, is it real?

Soo much to talk about!

 

[akaDaScribe]

https://www.christianforums.com/forums/philosophy.567/

I'm wondering about the 'tangible' statement too... are you saying it has to be physically measurable to be real?

I can't think of anything not measurable right now.

As for varying degrees of hell? Yeah.

the Bible is clear that with greater revelation and responsibility comes stricter judgment (cf. James 3:1). Jesus warned the Pharisees that they would “be punished most severely” for their willful hypocrisy (Luke 20:47). In denouncing the cities where most of his miracles had been performed, Jesus said, “Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes” (Matthew 11:21). Thus, said Jesus, “It will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you” (v. 22).Jesus used the metaphor of physical torture to warn his hearers that those who knowingly disobey will experience greater torment in hell than those who disobey in ignorance (Luke 12:47–48).
http://www.equip.org/bible_answers/are-there-degrees-of-punishment-in-hell/

And I recall His disdain for those who abuse children...​

I was thinking detectable because there are things light we may or may not be able to measure, but we know they are in the physical world. And there are things we have been able to detect before we could measure them.

 

[Chinchilla]

What is real?
Does something have to be tangible to be real?

We don't know what is real , we put faith in everything we do .

 

[Serving Zion]

I was thinking detectable because there are things light we may or may not be able to measure, but we know they are in the physical world. And there are things we have been able to detect before we could measure them.

I wonder what the best way to describe the opposite would be, and how would we describe or conceive of it if it were undetectable?