What Is Paul's Definition of NT Prophecy?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I guess your perspective is heavily influenced by the excesses of the modern prophetic movement which you repeatedly refer to.

It seems this has developed to the degree that the theology you have settled on precludes the possibility of the genuine.

This is very common in Christianity - rationalising the absence of the life by theologising it's passing.

I notice that so far you have chosen not to comment on what happened in Mexico.

I have viewed most of the video, and certainly there is something happening in that community that is drawing people to Christ.

The major difference that I see that sets the work of these Catholic fathers apart from the false healing conferences run by the Prosperity and Guaranteed Healing preachers, is that these priests are not in it for personal gain. They are totally involved in service for the Lord, relieving the poor and suffering, and sharing the Gospel of Christ. I believe that the Holy Spirit will always be involved in ministries that unselfishly seek to assist the poor. This ministry is not happening in attractive, well designed, flash buildings, by evangelists in expensive suits. It is happening at the city dump. I will bet your bottom dollar that the likes of Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen, wouldn't be seen dead working alongside those dump workers to assist them to make just enough money to buy store-bought groceries to feed the families for three days of the week. The miracle of the increase of food to enable everyone to be fully fed and the leftover food distributed to local orphanages is quite remarkable. Here is a good example of demonstration supporting the talk. Bill Johnson should go to that dump in Mexico and learn what true miracles are like, but I really don't think he even knows that the ministry exists.

I guess you got me with that video!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

This reference is not to the church, otherwise prophetic gifts would not have been given, which they were.

So, are you saying that the writer to the Hebrews is reaching out to the unconverted Jews. Correct?

Would you not say that the book of Hebrews is totally prophetic, seeing that it is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Someone could get up in a church, quote the whole book of Hebrews to the group of people who had never read it, and wouldn't they think that a prophetic word was being given to them?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

What is often overlooked is that the first ministry
of a prophet is intercession, not prediction.
Genesis 20:7 Now therefore, restore the man’s wife;
for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you and
you shall live. But if you do not restore her, know that
you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.
How is it that Abraham is identified
as the first prophet?
In the previous chapter, he famously intercedes for wicked
Sodom and Gomorrah. I would not receive a prophecy
directed towards me personally without knowing them
to be an intercessor.
There has been times when I was in long prayer
and fasting over something, and felt I was ready
to act, and I received a prophetic word of knowledge
from someone I was in fellowship that knew nothing
of the issue, but confirmed what I already had received
in my spirit. This is what I mean by receiving
as a confirmation, Carl. I always speak from experience.
People who seek out prophecies for themselves from
someone who advertizes themselves to be a prophet
are engaging in wicked deceptions.
It is akin to the words of Christ, when He states:
"A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign."

The mature, experienced pastor who taught me concerning the prophetic told me that one needs to be a man of prayer and of the word to function in true prophecy.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Yes, the above to me is sound...

Except we see record of both intercession and prediction.

Do you remember as the lead-up to the NZ general election that elected Jacinda as Prime Minister, the TV One News had the Prediction Chicken which was to predict the outcome of the election by pecking either the National or Labour symbol in front of it? I can't remember which symbol it actually pecked.

Makes me think that the chicken would have more hope of an accurate prediction than all the prominent Word-Faith prophets we see featured in Youtube videos!

Perhaps the U.S. prophets should have used the chicken to predict the outcome of the presidential election. If it had pecked at Joe Biden's picture, it might have been the most accurate "prophet" out of all of them! Hahahahaha!

 

[Minister Monardo]

The mature, experienced pastor who taught me concerning the prophetic told me that one needs to be a man of prayer and of the word to function in true prophecy.

I would go beyond the prophetic to say that every
error of the church can be traced to a lack of prayer.
For we have been told "pray without ceasing". 1 Th 5:17
Fellowship among brothers and sisters of obedience
would be "instant in prayer". Romans 12:12

 

[Minister Monardo]

Do you remember as the lead-up to the NZ general election that elected Jacinda as Prime Minister, the TV One News had the Prediction Chicken which was to predict the outcome of the election by pecking either the National or Labour symbol in front of it? I can't remember which symbol it actually pecked.

Makes me think that the chicken would have more hope of an accurate prediction than all the prominent Word-Faith prophets we see featured in Youtube videos!

Perhaps the U.S. prophets should have used the chicken to predict the outcome of the presidential election. If it had pecked at Joe Biden's picture, it might have been the most accurate "prophet" out of all of them! Hahahahaha!

Have you ever heard of a chicken drop? They are big in
the southern U.S.

 

[ARBITER01]

Actually one of the best examples of true prophecy is what the pre-incarnate Son of God said to Balaam when the latter tried to curse Israel, but had to speak what the Lord told him instead.

Yep, it goes right over your head, glad I didn't place a bet.

This is why you as well as many others have all sorts of differing ideas about what they think prophecy is, because you don't know the difference between general prophesying by the gift of prophesying and the actual predictive prophecy by the word of wisdom that a true prophet speaks by utterance of The Holy Spirit.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Yep, it goes right over your head, glad I didn't place a bet.

This is why you as well as many others have all sorts of differing ideas about what they think prophecy is, because you don't know the difference between general prophesying by the gift of prophesying and the actual predictive prophecy by the word of wisdom that a true prophet speaks by utterance of The Holy Spirit.

The point I was making that Balaam, being a total pagan who was employed to bring a curse divination on Israel, was encountered by the Lord to say exactly what He told him to say. This is an example of the Lord speaking through a pagan divination practitioner more effectively than the modern Word-Faith prophets. Actually what the donkey said to Balaam made more sense than any of the modern prophesiers on Youtube.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The prediction chicken

 

[Carl Emerson]

So, are you saying that the writer to the Hebrews is reaching out to the unconverted Jews. Correct?

Would you not say that the book of Hebrews is totally prophetic, seeing that it is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Someone could get up in a church, quote the whole book of Hebrews to the group of people who had never read it, and wouldn't they think that a prophetic word was being given to them?

He addresses both the unconverted and the Brethren.

We would need to agree on a definition of the prophetic first, to process that issue.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Do you remember as the lead-up to the NZ general election that elected Jacinda as Prime Minister, the TV One News had the Prediction Chicken which was to predict the outcome of the election by pecking either the National or Labour symbol in front of it? I can't remember which symbol it actually pecked.

Makes me think that the chicken would have more hope of an accurate prediction than all the prominent Word-Faith prophets we see featured in Youtube videos!

Perhaps the U.S. prophets should have used the chicken to predict the outcome of the presidential election. If it had pecked at Joe Biden's picture, it might have been the most accurate "prophet" out of all of them! Hahahahaha!

Yes we are in a sad season but there is hope.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The point I was making that Balaam, being a total pagan who was employed to bring a curse divination on Israel, was encountered by the Lord to say exactly what He told him to say. This is an example of the Lord speaking through a pagan divination practitioner more effectively than the modern Word-Faith prophets. Actually what the donkey said to Balaam made more sense than any of the modern prophesiers on Youtube.

I honestly don't think the answer is to constantly focus on the errors of our day.

There is a road to walk on that is a celebration of His Goodness, Power and Love but few seem to find it - largely because it is not taught.

Jeremiah 6:16
This is what the Lord says: “Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths, Where the good way is, and walk in it; Then you will find a resting place for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’

There you will see God move - if you walk on it.

 

[disciple Clint]

I have decided to start my own thread about this, instead of hijacking someone else's.

What I see in 1 Corinthians 14:3, "But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men."

Notice what Paul includes in his definition of prophecy and what he leaves out. He says that New Testament prophecy is for edification (building up faith in Christ), exhortation (to put trust in Christ), and comfort (assurance of God's help in times of trial). Also, further down in the chapter he includes "instruction".

Now, notice what Paul does not include in his definition. He does not include "guidance", nor does he include "prediction". What this means that guidance and prediction are not elements of New Testament prophecy, if we are to accept that Paul is writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

If we examine the type of false prophecies that have caused the most harm to believers, we see that they consist mainly in guidance, both corporate and personal; and prediction of future events (which never actually come to pass). But there have been many true and genuine prophecies that have done much to build up believers' faith in Christ, have motivated them to trust Christ in every circumstance, and given precious comfort to grieving believers, and those struggling with persecution and trials of their faith. Also many good prophecies have included instruction in righteousness in order to keep believers on the path of sound doctrine.

When prophecies are given, they must be evaluated. Paul taught the Thessalonians to "test all things and hold to that which is good." The test is to determine the effect that the prophecy has on the listeners. If a prophecy is given and no one understands what is being said, then the prophecy fails the test, because it has said nothing of substance and therefore falls short of Paul's definition of prophecy. If a prophecy predicts a future event such as "this year there will be a wave of refreshing across the body of Christ with signs, wonders, and miracles" and nothing happens by the end of the year, then it also fails the test because what was predicted never happened.

The Scripture says "31 I am against the false prophets,” says the Lord. “They use their own words and pretend it is a message from me. 32 I am against the prophets who prophesy false dreams,” says the Lord. “They mislead my people with their lies and false teachings! I did not send them or command them to do anything for me. They can’t help the people of Judah at all,” says the Lord. 33 “Suppose the people of Judah, a prophet, or a priest asks you: ‘Jeremiah, what is the message from the Lord?’ You will answer them and say, ‘You are a heavy load to the Lord, and I will throw you down, says the Lord.’" (Jeremiah 23:31-3).

These are very sobering words, because it is very clear that our modern false prophets are not born again if God has declared that He is against them.

I do not think that it is ever safe or wise to assume that just because someone leaves something out of a statement that they are affirmatively excluding it.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I honestly don't think the answer is to constantly focus on the errors of our day.

There is a road to walk on that is a celebration of His Goodness, Power and Love but few seem to find it - largely because it is not taught.

Jeremiah 6:16
This is what the Lord says: “Stand by the ways and see and ask for the ancient paths, Where the good way is, and walk in it; Then you will find a resting place for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’

There you will see God move - if you walk on it.

Jeremiah 6 is not written to us. Here are the beginning verses:
“Flee for safety, people of Benjamin!
Flee from Jerusalem!
Sound the trumpet in Tekoa!
Raise the signal over Beth Hakkerem!
For disaster looms out of the north,
even terrible destruction.
2 I will destroy Daughter Zion,
so beautiful and delicate.
3 Shepherds with their flocks will come against her;
they will pitch their tents around her,
each tending his own portion.”

Verse 16 is directed to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, giving instruction to avoid the judgment to come upon them. It is written to a city which is idolatrous, to instruct them to find the old paths of faithfulness to God. But they refused:

"I appointed watchmen over you and said,
‘Listen to the sound of the trumpet!’
But you said, ‘We will not listen.’
18 Therefore hear, you nations;
you who are witnesses,
observe what will happen to them.
19 Hear, you earth:
I am bringing disaster on this people,
the fruit of their schemes,
because they have not listened to my words
and have rejected my law" (vv. 17-19).

This is not written to born again believers who have Christ as their Saviour. We who have received Christ have listened to His voice in the Gospel and have accepted God's moral law as revealing our sin in order to come to God's throne of Grace to find mercy.

We can't take a verse of Scripture out of its natural context and twist it to mean something for born again Christians when it was never intended as such.

Seeing that it was the word of the Lord that came to Jeremiah, the Holy Spirit had no problems dealing extensively with the problems of the day. Look at what the Lord says about the false prophets:
"This is what the Lord All-Powerful says:
“Don’t pay attention to what those prophets are saying to you.
They are trying to fool you.
They talk about visions their own minds made up,
not about visions from me.
17 They say to those who hate me:
‘The Lord says: You will have peace.’
They say to all those who are stubborn and do as they please:
‘Nothing bad will happen to you.’
18 But none of these prophets has stood in the meeting of angels
to see or hear the message of the Lord.
None of them has paid close attention to his message.
19 Look, the punishment from the Lord
will come like a storm.
His anger will be like a hurricane.
It will come swirling down on the heads of those wicked people.
20 The Lord’s anger will not stop
until he finishes what he plans to do.
When that day is over,
you will understand this clearly.
21 I did not send those prophets,
but they ran to tell their message.
I did not speak to them,
but they prophesied anyway.
22 But if they had stood in the meeting of angels,
they would have told my message to my people.
They would have turned the people from their evil ways
and from doing evil.
23 “I am a God who is near,” says the Lord.
“I am also a God who is far away.
24 No one can hide
where I cannot see him,” says the Lord.
“I fill all of heaven and earth,” says the Lord.
25 “I have heard the prophets who prophesy lies in my name. They say, ‘I have had a dream! I have had a dream!’ 26 How long will this continue in the minds of these lying prophets? They prophesy from their own wishful thinking. 27 They are trying to make the people of Judah forget me by telling each other these dreams. In the same way, their ancestors forgot me and worshiped Baal. 28 Is straw the same thing as wheat?” says the Lord. “If a prophet wants to tell about his dreams, let him! But let the person who hears my message speak it truthfully! 29 Isn’t my message like a fire?” says the Lord. “Isn’t it like a hammer that smashes a rock?
30 “So I am against the false prophets,” says the Lord. “They keep stealing words from each other and say they are from me. 31 I am against the false prophets,” says the Lord. “They use their own words and pretend it is a message from me. 32 I am against the prophets who prophesy false dreams,” says the Lord. “They mislead my people with their lies and false teachings! I did not send them or command them to do anything for me. They can’t help the people of Judah at all,” says the Lord.
33 “Suppose the people of Judah, a prophet, or a priest asks you: ‘Jeremiah, what is the message from the Lord?’ You will answer them and say, ‘You are a heavy load to the Lord, and I will throw you down, says the Lord.’ 34 A prophet or a priest or one of the people might say, ‘This is a message from the Lord.’ That person has lied, so I will punish him and his whole family. 35 This is what you will say to each other: ‘What did the Lord answer?’ or ‘What did the Lord say?’ 36 But you will never again say, ‘The message of the Lord,’ because the only message you speak is your own words. You have changed the words of our God, the living God, the Lord All-Powerful. 37 This is how you should speak to the prophets: ‘What answer did the Lord give you?’ or ‘What did the Lord say?’ 38 But don’t say, ‘The message from the Lord.’ If you use these words, this is what the Lord says: Because you called it a ‘message from the Lord,’ though I told you not to use those words, 39 I will pick you up and throw you away from me, along with Jerusalem, which I gave to your ancestors and to you. 40 And I will make a disgrace of you forever; your shame will never be forgotten.” (Jeremiah 23:16-39).

Although this was what the Lord said to Judah through Jeremiah, it is written for our education as well. It shows the Lord's attitude toward false prophets. If Jeremiah was prophesying about the modern Charismatic prophets and those who have prophetic websites and Youtube channels, he would be saying exactly the same things.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I do not think that it is ever safe or wise to assume that just because someone leaves something out of a statement that they are affirmatively excluding it.

Well, seeing that the prophecies that involve guidance and prediction have been proven to be false and misleading, and the prophecies that have contained exhortation, comfort, and faith building words have shown to be genuine and helpful in building up believers' faith in Christ.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Jeremiah 6 is not written to us. Here are the beginning verses:
“Flee for safety, people of Benjamin!
Flee from Jerusalem!
Sound the trumpet in Tekoa!
Raise the signal over Beth Hakkerem!
For disaster looms out of the north,
even terrible destruction.
2 I will destroy Daughter Zion,
so beautiful and delicate.
3 Shepherds with their flocks will come against her;
they will pitch their tents around her,
each tending his own portion.”

Verse 16 is directed to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, giving instruction to avoid the judgment to come upon them. It is written to a city which is idolatrous, to instruct them to find the old paths of faithfulness to God. But they refused:

"I appointed watchmen over you and said,
‘Listen to the sound of the trumpet!’
But you said, ‘We will not listen.’
18 Therefore hear, you nations;
you who are witnesses,
observe what will happen to them.
19 Hear, you earth:
I am bringing disaster on this people,
the fruit of their schemes,
because they have not listened to my words
and have rejected my law" (vv. 17-19).

This is not written to born again believers who have Christ as their Saviour. We who have received Christ have listened to His voice in the Gospel and have accepted God's moral law as revealing our sin in order to come to God's throne of Grace to find mercy.

We can't take a verse of Scripture out of its natural context and twist it to mean something for born again Christians when it was never intended as such.

Seeing that it was the word of the Lord that came to Jeremiah, the Holy Spirit had no problems dealing extensively with the problems of the day. Look at what the Lord says about the false prophets:
"This is what the Lord All-Powerful says:
“Don’t pay attention to what those prophets are saying to you.
They are trying to fool you.
They talk about visions their own minds made up,
not about visions from me.
17 They say to those who hate me:
‘The Lord says: You will have peace.’
They say to all those who are stubborn and do as they please:
‘Nothing bad will happen to you.’
18 But none of these prophets has stood in the meeting of angels
to see or hear the message of the Lord.
None of them has paid close attention to his message.
19 Look, the punishment from the Lord
will come like a storm.
His anger will be like a hurricane.
It will come swirling down on the heads of those wicked people.
20 The Lord’s anger will not stop
until he finishes what he plans to do.
When that day is over,
you will understand this clearly.
21 I did not send those prophets,
but they ran to tell their message.
I did not speak to them,
but they prophesied anyway.
22 But if they had stood in the meeting of angels,
they would have told my message to my people.
They would have turned the people from their evil ways
and from doing evil.
23 “I am a God who is near,” says the Lord.
“I am also a God who is far away.
24 No one can hide
where I cannot see him,” says the Lord.
“I fill all of heaven and earth,” says the Lord.
25 “I have heard the prophets who prophesy lies in my name. They say, ‘I have had a dream! I have had a dream!’ 26 How long will this continue in the minds of these lying prophets? They prophesy from their own wishful thinking. 27 They are trying to make the people of Judah forget me by telling each other these dreams. In the same way, their ancestors forgot me and worshiped Baal. 28 Is straw the same thing as wheat?” says the Lord. “If a prophet wants to tell about his dreams, let him! But let the person who hears my message speak it truthfully! 29 Isn’t my message like a fire?” says the Lord. “Isn’t it like a hammer that smashes a rock?
30 “So I am against the false prophets,” says the Lord. “They keep stealing words from each other and say they are from me. 31 I am against the false prophets,” says the Lord. “They use their own words and pretend it is a message from me. 32 I am against the prophets who prophesy false dreams,” says the Lord. “They mislead my people with their lies and false teachings! I did not send them or command them to do anything for me. They can’t help the people of Judah at all,” says the Lord.
33 “Suppose the people of Judah, a prophet, or a priest asks you: ‘Jeremiah, what is the message from the Lord?’ You will answer them and say, ‘You are a heavy load to the Lord, and I will throw you down, says the Lord.’ 34 A prophet or a priest or one of the people might say, ‘This is a message from the Lord.’ That person has lied, so I will punish him and his whole family. 35 This is what you will say to each other: ‘What did the Lord answer?’ or ‘What did the Lord say?’ 36 But you will never again say, ‘The message of the Lord,’ because the only message you speak is your own words. You have changed the words of our God, the living God, the Lord All-Powerful. 37 This is how you should speak to the prophets: ‘What answer did the Lord give you?’ or ‘What did the Lord say?’ 38 But don’t say, ‘The message from the Lord.’ If you use these words, this is what the Lord says: Because you called it a ‘message from the Lord,’ though I told you not to use those words, 39 I will pick you up and throw you away from me, along with Jerusalem, which I gave to your ancestors and to you. 40 And I will make a disgrace of you forever; your shame will never be forgotten.” (Jeremiah 23:16-39).

Although this was what the Lord said to Judah through Jeremiah, it is written for our education as well. It shows the Lord's attitude toward false prophets. If Jeremiah was prophesying about the modern Charismatic prophets and those who have prophetic websites and Youtube channels, he would be saying exactly the same things.

"Although this was what the Lord said to Judah through Jeremiah, it is written for our education as well..."

So you apply that to your choice of OT teaching but not mine... OK then...

 

[Carl Emerson]

Well, seeing that the prophecies that involve guidance and prediction have been proven to be false and misleading, and the prophecies that have contained exhortation, comfort, and faith building words have shown to be genuine and helpful in building up believers' faith in Christ.

So because the Church has allowed prophesy pertaining to prediction and guidance to be poorly managed, you want to outlaw that aspect of prophesy altogether ???

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

"Although this was what the Lord said to Judah through Jeremiah, it is written for our education as well..."

So you apply that to your choice of OT teaching but not mine... OK then...

The distinction between your quote and mine is that yours is an instruction to the people of Jerusalem, which does not apply to us. This is because we don't walk on roads and paths, but walk in the Spirit and in the light as Christ as in the light. Also we are not instructed to seek for the old ways, but to conduct our lives through faith in Christ.

The idea of "the paths of righteousness" comes from Psalm 23 and therefore it is from an O.T. perspective.

My quote does not contain instruction, but expresses judgment from the Lord against false prophets. It is quite significant that much of the description about what false prophets do is very similar to the false Word-Faith prophets.

Of course both yours and my quotes involve education about the judgment of God that comes upon people who are unfaithful to God. In the Old Testament it was Israel and Judah straying away from the Lord to the worship of idols. In the New Testament it is ignoring the Gospel of Christ.

There is going to be only one Judgment, and that will take place before the throne of Christ. It will include O.T. folks and N.T. folks who have rejected the Messiah to come, and the Christ of Calvary.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So because the Church has allowed prophesy pertaining to prediction and guidance to be poorly managed, you want to outlaw that aspect of prophesy altogether ???

It is not that the false prophecies have been poorly managed. It is because God did not send these prophets, nor has He spoken to them.

The elephant in the room which the Word-Faith don't want us to see, is that none of their predictive prophecies have come to pass, and the reference in Deuteronomy shows clearly the consequences of giving prophecies that don't come to pass. In spite of none of the prophecies coming to pass, they have been swept under the rug, the videos erased from Youtube, and the prophets carry on business as usual with new prophecies that also will never come to pass. Kenneth Copeland must know by now that his assertive declaration that Covid-19 is dead, was just hot air, and yet he carries on pretending that he never made that declaration. I think his Youtube video has been taken down. To keep it up would be an embarrassment to him. The video of his fake laughter in the Spirit against Joe Biden inferring that Biden will be shown to have lost and will have to step down in favour of Trump has also been taken down. Talk about having egg on his face, and yet he carries on as if nothing has happened.

In actual fact, there is absolutely nothing wrong with predictive prophecies that come to pass, giving glory to Christ. But we need to see them, because none of the ones already given over the last couple of years have come to pass, so we are still waiting for the good ones. But if the Word-Faith prophets are bad prophets speaking divination instead of the Word of God, doesn't the principle of a bad tree bearing bad fruit apply? In contrast, good prophets of the Lord will give good prophecies that will build up the faith of believers and draw people to Christ.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Interesting position you hold...

For me, Abraham is the father of all who have faith.

Therefore from Abraham on, we have much to learn from those who walked in faith from the OT. Sure their understanding was incomplete but they still have much to teach us.

In the NT those who followed the journey of the gospel were said to be followers of 'the way'

Like the OT faithful they walked the way of faith.

The OT faithful are referred to as examples to follow in Heb 11...

They all walked in the ancient paths of faith.

So I would not be too quick to dismiss the Jer 6:16 reference so quickly - it refers to the ancient walk of faith and obedience that we read about from Abraham on.