What is our Inheritance?

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes, children of the promise. the Promise of the Holy Spirit.

`...that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.` (Gal. 3: 14)

Abraham`s SEED was Christ. We are not born of Abraham`s physical seed but OF his Seed, Christ. That is the meaning of that phrase.

You seem to have trouble giving straightforward answers to straightforward questions for some reason. I asked you if you believe that you, like Isaac, are a child of the promise? Yes or no?

I referenced Galatians 4:28 to show what Romans 9:7 is about. Do you agree that there is a connection between those verses?

Scripture teaches that we (Christians/the church/the body of Christ) are Abraham's spiritual seed, not his physical seed. Do you agree or disagree with the following scriptures which teach that believers are Abraham's spiritual seed because of having faith and belonging to Christ?

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Do you consider yourself to be a spiritual seed/child of Abraham because of having faith like Abraham and because of belonging to Christ, as these scriptures teach?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I just wonder why there's such struggle over our relationship to Israel is. Like I find Paul's imagery of the olive tree pretty clear. Christ the root, Israel and the gentile Christians the branches. The branches are not the same, they don't replace each other, and yet they're part of the same tree, so they're also not wholly separate.

People seem to gravitate to a view where either God's done with Israel and the Church replaced it.. or that the Church and Israel are wholly separate and God deals with each differently.

like Romans 11 and Revelation 7 both kind of settle it for me, that we have a unified destiny and yet there is a distinction.
the 144k the remnant of the tribes of Israel, the uncountable multitude, the gentiles in Christ. Both redeemed (the redeemed remnant accept Jesus as Messiah though don't get me wrong I don't believe they have a separate plan of salvation)

The New Testament repeatedly shows that there is no distinction between Jews and Gentiles, so I disagree with your claim that "there is a distinction".

Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Romans 3:22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

Romans 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

1 Corinthians 12:13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

Ephesians 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

 

[Jamdoc]

The New Testament repeatedly shows that there is no distinction between Jews and Gentiles, so I disagree with your claim that "there is a distinction".

Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Romans 3:22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

Romans 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,

1 Corinthians 12:13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

Ephesians 3:1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—2 Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, 3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

144k out of the 12 tribes of Israel, and after that there's the uncountable multitude from every tribe and nation.

Like there's a difference there. They're not the same. One is specifically identified the other is more general from every nation.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

144k out of the 12 tribes of Israel, and after that there's the uncountable multitude from every tribe and nation.

Like there's a difference there. They're not the same. One is specifically identified the other is more general from every nation.

So, you just think we should ignore all of those other passages which say there is no distinction between Jews and Gentiles then? You think Revelation 7 trumps all of those passages and makes it so that we should just remove those other passages from our Bibles?

Have you considered that the reference to the 144,000 should not be taken literally and the real identity of the 144,000 is revealed with the great multitude from all nations that no one can count?

Have you not wondered why the 12 tribes listed in Revelation 7 do not line up with the 12 tribes of Israel described in the Old Testament? I'm sure you are aware that the 12 tribes of Israel in the Old Testament refer to the tribes that were named after the 12 sons of Jacob, whose name was later changed to Israel. Those 12 tribes were: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph and Benjamin.

But, in Revelation 7, the tribe of Dan is not listed and it refers to the tribe of Manasseh (Joseph's son) instead, which is not listed as one of the 12 tribes in the Old Testament. That's a major sign that this is meant to be taken symbolically and not literally.

The tribe of Dan was known for idolatry and disobedience and Manasseh was one of the sons of Joseph and his tribe was known instead for righteousness. It's also interesting to note that the tribe of Manasseh is listed instead of the tribe of Ephraim (Joseph's other son) which was also known for its idolatry and disobedience. So, the exclusion of the tribe of Dan and inclusion of the tribe of Manasseh and not the tribe of Ephraim instead shows that Revelation 7 is referring only to the people of God who are righteous and it's not based on nationality at all, but on faith just like we see throughout the rest of the New Testament.

Why would the book of Revelation teach anything different than the rest of the New Testament? The number 12 is sometimes used to represent completeness, which I believe is why there were 12 disciples, and the number thousand is sometimes used in scripture to refer to a large, unknown number. So, 12 times 12 times a thousand (144,000) is symbolic for all of the people of God from all nations that no one can count. All those who are saved and have the seal of God (Holy Spirit) have their spiritual ancestry going back to the Israelite believers from long ago and I believe that is what it symbolically refers to the people of God symbolically as being part of the tribes of Israel. But, it's referring to spiritual Israel that Gentile believers are grafted into and not national Israel.

 

[Marilyn C]

Jesus knew about it, so this is not a valid argument for denying that the sheep are the body of Christ.


The judgment doesn't occur until Jesus comes. The souls of the dead in Christ are in the third heaven and are not judging anyone.


Scripture explicitly teaches that He has one people and it is those who have faith and belong to Christ. There is one body of God's people. Period. That is what scripture teaches.

Yes, Jesus knew, however He never revealed the Body of Christ revelation till He ascended to the Father and gave it to the Apostle Paul (Eph. 3: 3 - 7)

The judgment of the world system occurs in the trib. and also Satan and his fallen angels are cast to the earth in the trib. Thus, the Body of Christ is in the third heaven judging these. They are the court that Daniel saw. (Dan. 7: 10 & 26)

You may believe that however, God`s word tells us that there are nations on the new earth, (Rev. 21: 24) and Old Testament Saints in the city, (Heb. 11: 16) and finally the Body of Christ is on the Lord`s own throne in the highest. (Rev. 1: 20 - 22 3: 21)

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yes, Jesus knew, however He never revealed the Body of Christ revelation till He ascended to the Father and gave it to the Apostle Paul (Eph. 3: 3 - 7)

That doesn't matter. That means once Paul revealed that, then people understood who the elect are that Jesus talked about in Matthew 24:29-31. Jesus understood when He was speaking that what He was saying would not be fully understood at that time, but would be understood later by way of Paul's teachings.

The judgment of the world system occurs in the trib.

No. Paul said we will judge the world and judge angels and that does not happen "in the trib".

and also Satan and his fallen angels are cast to the earth in the trib.

No, they were cast out of heaven to the earth long ago already. Do you understand that the accuser Satan being cast out of heaven means he can't accuse us before God anymore?

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Do you think Satan has been able to accuse anyone before God since Christ died for our sins? He has not. What does he have to accuse us of when our sins have been forgiven and covered by the blood of Christ? Nothing. Look at what Paul wrote here.

Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

No one, including Satan, has been able to make any accusations towards God's people since Christ's death because His blood covers our sins and He intercedes for us.

Thus, the Body of Christ is in the third heaven judging these. They are the court that Daniel saw. (Dan. 7: 10 & 26)

The judgment doesn't occur until Christ returns (Matthew 25:31-46).

You may believe that however, God`s word tells us that there are nations on the new earth, (Rev. 21: 24) and Old Testament Saints in the city, (Heb. 11: 16) and finally the Body of Christ is on the Lord`s own throne in the highest. (Rev. 1: 20 - 22 3: 21)

Good grief. Where does Hebrews 11 say anything about Old Testament saints having a different destiny than New Testament saints? Nowhere. Look at this...

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

This passage indicates that "these all" (Old Testament saints) didn't receive the promise, but they realized God had "some better things" in mind for them AND for us (New Testament saints) and they will not inherit what God has promised "without us". We (New Testament saints) will inherit the same things that Old Testament saints will. And, why wouldn't we? All of God's people are together as one! How can you not know this? Why do you try to divide what the blood of Christ has brought together as one! I find that to be completely unacceptable and unbiblical.

Peter indicated that believers look to inherit the new heavens and new earth (2 Peter 3:13). All believers will inherit the new heavens and new earth. God does not have separate plans for different groups of people. Scripture does not teach that anywhere and that contradicts the repeated times where scripture says that Jesus brought us all together as one body.

 

[Marilyn C]

You seem to have trouble giving straightforward answers to straightforward questions for some reason. I asked you if you believe that you, like Isaac, are a child of the promise? Yes or no?

I referenced Galatians 4:28 to show what Romans 9:7 is about. Do you agree that there is a connection between those verses?

Scripture teaches that we (Christians/the church/the body of Christ) are Abraham's spiritual seed, not his physical seed. Do you agree or disagree with the following scriptures which teach that believers are Abraham's spiritual seed because of having faith and belonging to Christ?

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Do you consider yourself to be a spiritual seed/child of Abraham because of having faith like Abraham and because of belonging to Christ, as these scriptures teach?

But I think I do. it may just be that we think differently.

Yes, I am a child of the promise of the Holy Spirit. (Gal. 3: 14) which I quoted.

As to Rom. 9: 7 The Holy Spirit through Paul is saying that not all of Abraham`s children, (seed) were of the promise, only through the line of Isaac.

I do not see anywhere where God`s world says we are `spiritual children` of Abraham. He could not produce such spiritual children. It is the Lord of whom we are spiritually His children, sons. (Heb. 2: 10 1 Cor. 15: 44 - 49)

And `no` I do not see a connection between Gal. 4: 28 and Rom. 9: 7. Different topics.

Gal. 3: 6 & 7. Yes, Abraham is the Father of those with faith. Thus, we are called his `sons.` But that is not physical or spiritual but relational to believing faith.

Gal. 3: 29 Abraham`s seed. That we know is Christ. And we are of Christ. That is the meaning there.

But, no I don`t see myself as the spiritual seed of Abraham but of Christ. (1 Cor. 15: 44 - 49 Heb. 2: 10)

 

[Marilyn C]

That doesn't matter. That means once Paul revealed that, then people understood who the elect are that Jesus talked about in Matthew 24:29-31. Jesus understood when He was speaking that what He was saying would not be fully understood at that time, but would be understood later by way of Paul's teachings.


No. Paul said we will judge the world and judge angels and that does not happen "in the trib".


No, they were cast out of heaven to the earth long ago already. Do you understand that the accuser Satan being cast out of heaven means he can't accuse us before God anymore?

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Do you think Satan has been able to accuse anyone before God since Christ died for our sins? He has not. What does he have to accuse us of when our sins have been forgiven and covered by the blood of Christ? Nothing. Look at what Paul wrote here.

Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

No one, including Satan, has been able to make any accusations towards God's people since Christ's death because His blood covers our sins and He intercedes for us.


The judgment doesn't occur until Christ returns (Matthew 25:31-46).


Good grief. Where does Hebrews 11 say anything about Old Testament saints having a different destiny than New Testament saints? Nowhere. Look at this...

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

This passage indicates that "these all" (Old Testament saints) didn't receive the promise, but they realized God had "some better things" in mind for them AND for us (New Testament saints) and they will not inherit what God has promised "without us". We (New Testament saints) will inherit the same things that Old Testament saints will. And, why wouldn't we? All of God's people are together as one! How can you not know this? Why do you try to divide what the blood of Christ has brought together as one! I find that to be completely unacceptable and unbiblical.

Peter indicated that believers look to inherit the new heavens and new earth (2 Peter 3:13). All believers will inherit the new heavens and new earth. God does not have separate plans for different groups of people. Scripture does not teach that anywhere and that contradicts the repeated times where scripture says that Jesus brought us all together as one body.

Fair enough answer - to be understood later.

Actually, Satan and his fallen angels were cast to the Principalities and powers realm, the Universe. (Col 1: 16 Eph. 2: 2 6: 12) Then in the trib, we read they were cast to the earth. (Rev. 12: 9) And Satan is accusing those on the earth in the trib, who turned to God. And he can`t accuse us for we will be in heaven.

`God having provided some better thing for us, (the Body of Christ).` (Heb. 11: 14) The `something better,` is a greater dominion. From the Greek - Kkreitton, better, from kraios, dominion.

The `better thing` is for US, not the OT saints.

So, please tell me -

1. Who are the nations of the new earth? (Rev. 21: 24)

2. Who are those in the New Jerusalem? (Rev. 21)

3. Who are those on Christ`s own throne in the highest? (Rev. 3: 21 4: 2 - 4)

 

[Spiritual Jew]

But I think I do.

You clearly do not answer questions that require a yes or no answer with a yes or no response. You can explain why you are saying yes or no, but you often don't even indicate whether your answer is yes or no to a yes or no question.

it may just be that we think differently.

Well, that's for sure, but that doesn't really explain why you don't answer yes or no to a yes or no question.

Yes, I am a child of the promise of the Holy Spirit. (Gal. 3: 14) which I quoted.

Is that not the promise that Paul is talking about in Romans 9:8? I believe so.

Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

As to Rom. 9: 7 The Holy Spirit through Paul is saying that not all of Abraham`s children, (seed) were of the promise, only through the line of Isaac.

What does the following passage indicate about who are the children of the promise through the line of Isaac?

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Paul was writing to Jew and Gentiles believers here and said "we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the chlidren of promise. Why would you not want to use a passage like this to help understand what he wrote in Romans 9:7?

I do not see anywhere where God`s world says we are `spiritual children` of Abraham.

So, you don't see these verses in God's word?

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

I would hope you don't think Galatians 3:7 is talking about those of faith being physical children or descendants of Abraham. What else is Paul saying there except that those who have faith are spiritual children of Abraham?

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I would hope that you don't think that Paul was saying if we are Christ's then we are Abraham's physical seed. Clearly, he was saying that if we are Christ's then we are Abraham's spiritual seed. How can you deny these clear scriptures?

He could not produce such spiritual children. It is the Lord of whom we are spiritually His children, sons. (Heb. 2: 10 1 Cor. 15: 44 - 49)

You are not getting it. We are Abraham's children or descendants spiritually because of having faith like Abraham had. You are not thinking spiritually here. Maybe it would help if you thought of us as being Abraham's spiritual descendants rather than his spiritual children? Scripture explicitly says "they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham" and "if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed". Why deny such explicit scripture? It's not talking about us being spiritual children in the same sense as we are spiritual children of God with Him as our spiritual Father, so don't let that throw you off. It's talking about being spiritual descendants of Abraham in the sense that we have faith like Abraham and belong to Christ because of our faith just like Abraham does.

And `no` I do not see a connection between Gal. 4: 28 and Rom. 9: 7. Different topics.

I believe your view on this is clearly caused by doctrinal bias. How do you ever relate any two verses together if you can't even relate those two verses together which both talk about being in the line of Isaac and being children of the promise as a result?

Gal. 3: 6 & 7. Yes, Abraham is the Father of those with faith. Thus, we are called his `sons.` But that is not physical or spiritual but relational to believing faith.

Is faith not a spiritual act? I don't know what you're talking about here. In what sense are we called his "sons" or "children" except in a spiritual sense? Faith is a spiritual thing. I believe you are just denying clear scripture here because of your strong doctrinal bias. You need to study scripture objectively and then see what you discover.

Gal. 3: 29 Abraham`s seed. That we know is Christ. And we are of Christ. That is the meaning there.

It says if you are Christ's then you ARE Abraham's seed. Galatians 3:16 says Abraham's seed is Christ, but because of belonging to Christ, we too are counted as Abraham's seed in a spiritual sense. That is clearly what that verse means. You are making Paul's statement that those who belong to Christ ARE Abraham's seed out to be a lie because you say we are not Abraham's seed while Paul says we ARE Abraham's seed. And we know what he meant by that by looking at Galatians 3:7 where he said that we who have faith are the children or descendants (seed) of Abraham.

But, no I don`t see myself as the spiritual seed of Abraham but of Christ. (1 Cor. 15: 44 - 49 Heb. 2: 10)

Then you are denying what Galatians 3:7 and Galatians 3:29 clearly say. Why would you deny what is eplicitly stated in scripture? That is unacceptable.

Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Paul said those who have faith and belong to Christ ARE Abraham's seed. You, in contrast to Paul, say we are NOT Abraham's seed. I will side with Paul every time over you.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Fair enough answer - to be understood later.

Actually, Satan and his fallen angels were cast to the Principalities and powers realm, the Universe. (Col 1: 16 Eph. 2: 2 6: 12) Then in the trib, we read they were cast to the earth. (Rev. 12: 9) And Satan is accusing those on the earth in the trib, who turned to God. And he can`t accuse us for we will be in heaven.

You are ignoring everything I said and not addressing it. I brought up Romans 8:31-34, which you did not address. Paul indicated there that NO ONE can make a charge or accusation against God's people. No one would include Satan. Do you disagree with Paul?

`God having provided some better thing for us, (the Body of Christ).` (Heb. 11: 14) The `something better,` is a greater dominion. From the Greek - Kkreitton, better, from kraios, dominion.

The `better thing` is for US, not the OT saints.

I didn't reference Hebrews 11:14, it was Hebrews 11:39-40. Look at it more carefully.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

This is not saying that God has something better for New Testament saints than Old Testament saints. My goodness, why would that be the case? Why would God do that? That makes no sense whatsoever. He has something better for us than Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? No way. Scripture says that we are the children of God and of Christ because of having faith like Abraham, so why would God have something better for us than for Abraham and the rest of the Old Testament saints? No, that's not at all what that means.

Notice after saying that God has a better thing for us, it says "they without us should not be made perfect". So, the better thing God has for us is being made perfect and it says that they, Old Testament saints, without us (New Testament saints) should not be made perfect, showing that all saints (OT and NT) will together be made perfect. That is God's promise for all saints from all time.

So, please tell me -

1. Who are the nations of the new earth? (Rev. 21: 24)

The Greek word translated as "nations" there is "ethnos" and it has several different definitions. It can refer to people in general, to people groups, to the heathen, to the Gentiles and so on. In this case it refers to people who are saved.

Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

Those who are saved look for inheriting the new heavens and new earth (2 Peter 3:13).

2. Who are those in the New Jerusalem? (Rev. 21)

The New Jerusalem is a symbolic entity representing the church. It is described as "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (Revelation 21:9) which describes the church. No literal city could be described as "the bride, the Lamb's wife". Paul wrote that the heavenly Jerusalem is "the mother of us all" (Galatians 4:26) in relation to all believers, so all believers are in the New Jerusalem.

3. Who are those on Christ`s own throne in the highest? (Rev. 3: 21 4: 2 - 4)

Again, the answer is the same. All believers. Right now, the souls of the dead in Christ are with Him there, but, eventually, we all will be with Him on His throne in the new heavens and new earth. It's not a literal throne. Heaven itself is His throne (Isaiah 66:1). When He comes again He will bring heaven to us and will renew heaven and earth, resulting in the new heaven and new earth where we will dwell with Him forever.

You cannot divide God's people. We are all one and will all be together as one for eternity in the new heavens and new earth.

 

[Marilyn C]

You clearly do not answer questions that require a yes or no answer with a yes or no response. You can explain why you are saying yes or no, but you often don't even indicate whether your answer is yes or no to a yes or no question.


Well, that's for sure, but that doesn't really explain why you don't answer yes or no to a yes or no question.


Is that not the promise that Paul is talking about in Romans 9:8? I believe so.

Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


What does the following passage indicate about who are the children of the promise through the line of Isaac?

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Paul was writing to Jew and Gentiles believers here and said "we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the chlidren of promise. Why would you not want to use a passage like this to help understand what he wrote in Romans 9:7?


So, you don't see these verses in God's word?

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

I would hope you don't think Galatians 3:7 is talking about those of faith being physical children or descendants of Abraham. What else is Paul saying there except that those who have faith are spiritual children of Abraham?

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I would hope that you don't think that Paul was saying if we are Christ's then we are Abraham's physical seed. Clearly, he was saying that if we are Christ's then we are Abraham's spiritual seed. How can you deny these clear scriptures?


You are not getting it. We are Abraham's children or descendants spiritually because of having faith like Abraham had. You are not thinking spiritually here. Maybe it would help if you thought of us as being Abraham's spiritual descendants rather than his spiritual children? Scripture explicitly says "they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham" and "if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed". Why deny such explicit scripture? It's not talking about us being spiritual children in the same sense as we are spiritual children of God with Him as our spiritual Father, so don't let that throw you off. It's talking about being spiritual descendants of Abraham in the sense that we have faith like Abraham and belong to Christ because of our faith just like Abraham does.


I believe your view on this is clearly caused by doctrinal bias. How do you ever relate any two verses together if you can't even relate those two verses together which both talk about being in the line of Isaac and being children of the promise as a result?


Is faith not a spiritual act? I don't know what you're talking about here. In what sense are we called his "sons" or "children" except in a spiritual sense? Faith is a spiritual thing. I believe you are just denying clear scripture here because of your strong doctrinal bias. You need to study scripture objectively and then see what you discover.


It says if you are Christ's then you ARE Abraham's seed. Galatians 3:16 says Abraham's seed is Christ, but because of belonging to Christ, we too are counted as Abraham's seed in a spiritual sense. That is clearly what that verse means. You are making Paul's statement that those who belong to Christ ARE Abraham's seed out to be a lie because you say we are not Abraham's seed while Paul says we ARE Abraham's seed. And we know what he meant by that by looking at Galatians 3:7 where he said that we who have faith are the children or descendants (seed) of Abraham.



Then you are denying what Galatians 3:7 and Galatians 3:29 clearly say. Why would you deny what is eplicitly stated in scripture? That is unacceptable.

Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Paul said those who have faith and belong to Christ ARE Abraham's seed. You, in contrast to Paul, say we are NOT Abraham's seed. I will side with Paul every time over you.

Thank you for from your perspective. yes/no. Ok will try and remember that.

You clearly do not answer questions that require a yes or no answer with a yes or no response. You can explain why you are saying yes or no, but you often don't even indicate whether your answer is yes or no to a yes or no question.


Well, that's for sure, but that doesn't really explain why you don't answer yes or no to a yes or no question.


Is that not the promise that Paul is talking about in Romans 9:8? I believe so.

Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


What does the following passage indicate about who are the children of the promise through the line of Isaac?

Galatians 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

Paul was writing to Jew and Gentiles believers here and said "we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the chlidren of promise. Why would you not want to use a passage like this to help understand what he wrote in Romans 9:7?


So, you don't see these verses in God's word?

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

I would hope you don't think Galatians 3:7 is talking about those of faith being physical children or descendants of Abraham. What else is Paul saying there except that those who have faith are spiritual children of Abraham?

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I would hope that you don't think that Paul was saying if we are Christ's then we are Abraham's physical seed. Clearly, he was saying that if we are Christ's then we are Abraham's spiritual seed. How can you deny these clear scriptures?


You are not getting it. We are Abraham's children or descendants spiritually because of having faith like Abraham had. You are not thinking spiritually here. Maybe it would help if you thought of us as being Abraham's spiritual descendants rather than his spiritual children? Scripture explicitly says "they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham" and "if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed". Why deny such explicit scripture? It's not talking about us being spiritual children in the same sense as we are spiritual children of God with Him as our spiritual Father, so don't let that throw you off. It's talking about being spiritual descendants of Abraham in the sense that we have faith like Abraham and belong to Christ because of our faith just like Abraham does.


I believe your view on this is clearly caused by doctrinal bias. How do you ever relate any two verses together if you can't even relate those two verses together which both talk about being in the line of Isaac and being children of the promise as a result?


Is faith not a spiritual act? I don't know what you're talking about here. In what sense are we called his "sons" or "children" except in a spiritual sense? Faith is a spiritual thing. I believe you are just denying clear scripture here because of your strong doctrinal bias. You need to study scripture objectively and then see what you discover.


It says if you are Christ's then you ARE Abraham's seed. Galatians 3:16 says Abraham's seed is Christ, but because of belonging to Christ, we too are counted as Abraham's seed in a spiritual sense. That is clearly what that verse means. You are making Paul's statement that those who belong to Christ ARE Abraham's seed out to be a lie because you say we are not Abraham's seed while Paul says we ARE Abraham's seed. And we know what he meant by that by looking at Galatians 3:7 where he said that we who have faith are the children or descendants (seed) of Abraham.



Then you are denying what Galatians 3:7 and Galatians 3:29 clearly say. Why would you deny what is eplicitly stated in scripture? That is unacceptable.

Galatians 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Paul said those who have faith and belong to Christ ARE Abraham's seed. You, in contrast to Paul, say we are NOT Abraham's seed. I will side with Paul every time over you.

I don`t read anywhere where God has cast away His physical nation of Israel.

`I sat then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not!.....even so at this time there is a remnant, according to the election of grace..` (Rom. 11: 1 & 5)

I am certainly NOT Abraham`s seed. He never produced me nor even spiritually. It is only the Lord who can produce spiritual children. The meaning of that phrase is muddled in English. Taking in all of scripture about that topic we realize that it means `of Abraham`s seed - CHRIST.

If you want to think you are of Abraham, obviously you can, but I`m not going to believe that.

Rom. 9: 6 - 8 `In Isaac your seed shall be called.` So do you come from Isaac?

 

[Marilyn C]

You are ignoring everything I said and not addressing it. I brought up Romans 8:31-34, which you did not address. Paul indicated there that NO ONE can make a charge or accusation against God's people. No one would include Satan. Do you disagree with Paul?


I didn't reference Hebrews 11:14, it was Hebrews 11:39-40. Look at it more carefully.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

This is not saying that God has something better for New Testament saints than Old Testament saints. My goodness, why would that be the case? Why would God do that? That makes no sense whatsoever. He has something better for us than Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? No way. Scripture says that we are the children of God and of Christ because of having faith like Abraham, so why would God have something better for us than for Abraham and the rest of the Old Testament saints? No, that's not at all what that means.

Notice after saying that God has a better thing for us, it says "they without us should not be made perfect". So, the better thing God has for us is being made perfect and it says that they, Old Testament saints, without us (New Testament saints) should not be made perfect, showing that all saints (OT and NT) will together be made perfect. That is God's promise for all saints from all time.


The Greek word translated as "nations" there is "ethnos" and it has several different definitions. It can refer to people in general, to people groups, to the heathen, to the Gentiles and so on. In this case it refers to people who are saved.

Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

Those who are saved look for inheriting the new heavens and new earth (2 Peter 3:13).


The New Jerusalem is a symbolic entity representing the church. It is described as "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (Revelation 21:9) which describes the church. No literal city could be described as "the bride, the Lamb's wife". Paul wrote that the heavenly Jerusalem is "the mother of us all" (Galatians 4:26) in relation to all believers, so all believers are in the New Jerusalem.


Again, the answer is the same. All believers. Right now, the souls of the dead in Christ are with Him there, but, eventually, we all will be with Him on His throne in the new heavens and new earth. It's not a literal throne. Heaven itself is His throne (Isaiah 66:1). When He comes again He will bring heaven to us and will renew heaven and earth, resulting in the new heaven and new earth where we will dwell with Him forever.

You cannot divide God's people. We are all one and will all be together as one for eternity in the new heavens and new earth.

I agree YES that no one can bring a charge against us, the Body of Christ and that the Lord is interceding for us. However - (in my previous post)

Satan and his fallen angels were cast to the Principalities and powers realm, the Universe. (Col 1: 16 Eph. 2: 2 6: 12) Then in the trib, we read they were cast to the earth. (Rev. 12: 9) And Satan is accusing those on the earth in the trib, who turned to God. And he can`t accuse us for we will be in heaven.

Now did you read what I wrote about the `something better?` Here it is again.

`God having provided some better thing for us, (the Body of Christ).` (Heb. 11: 14) The `something better,` is a greater dominion. From the Greek - Kkreitton, better, from kraios, dominion.

We, the Body of Christ will be with Christ on His throne in the highest over all God`s great kingdom while the OT saints will be in the city which comes down to the universal realm.

No one is better than anyone else it all has to do with rulership under Christ. he has some in the highest realm and some in the universal realm and some on the earth. All rulership is by the Lord and all under His sovereign rulership.

The nations are the nations while the Body of Christ is called OUT of the nations.

There is no indication of the Body of Christ in the city. It is all about the OT saints and Israel.


So again, I ask where are the scriptures of heaven coming to earth?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Thank you for from your perspective. yes/no. Ok will try and remember that.

I'm not sure how that would be hard to remember if you read the question carefully and see that I'm asking a question that requires a yes or no answer. I'm fine with adding detail as to why you're answering yes or no, but it shouldn't be hard to see that you should first answer yes or no.

I don`t read anywhere where God has cast away His physical nation of Israel.

`I sat then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not!.....even so at this time there is a remnant, according to the election of grace..` (Rom. 11: 1 & 5)

He didn't cast the entire nation away and Paul used himself and the rest of the remnant of believers of his time. But, the rest were blinded (Romans 11:7). But, not permanently. They were blinded in order for the gospel and salvation to go to the Gentiles and, in turn, the Gentiles would provoke those blinded Israelites to jealousy so that they too would want to be saved. Paul indicated that he hoped to lead some of them to salvation (Romans 11:11-14) and I'm sure he did.

I am certainly NOT Abraham`s seed.

That would mean you don't have faith. Are you willing to say that? Why do you deny what the following verses explicitly teach?

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

To say that you are not Abraham's seed is the same as saying you are not of faith. But, I highly doubt you believe you are not of faith, so why do you not accept what Paul clearly taught? Why do you just believe whatever you want to believe instead?

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

By saying that you are not Abraham's seed is like saying you are not Christ's and not an heir according to the promise. But, I'm sure you would not say that you are not Christ's or an heir according to the promise, so why are you not accepting what Paul taught, which is that if you are Christ's then you are Abraham's seed?

He never produced me nor even spiritually.

You are looking at this in entirely the wrong way. You need to ask God for wisdom about this (James 1:5-7). It's not about Abraham producing us, it's about us having faith like Abraham and being his spiritual descendants in that sense.

It is only the Lord who can produce spiritual children.

He produces spiritual children who are spiritual descendants of Abraham in the sense that they have faith like Abraham had and are saved by faith like Abraham was.

The meaning of that phrase is muddled in English. Taking in all of scripture about that topic we realize that it means `of Abraham`s seed - CHRIST.

This is unacceptable. There is nothing muzzled about what Paul wrote in Galatians 3 that we read in our English translations.

If you want to think you are of Abraham, obviously you can, but I`m not going to believe that.

I don't think that, I know that because scripture explicitly teaches it. It's sad that you don't even accept explicit scripture. It's a wonder that you accept any scripture at all.

Rom. 9: 6 - 8 `In Isaac your seed shall be called.` So do you come from Isaac?

You clearly don't understand what that means. As Paul taught, we, like Isaac was, are the children of the promise (Galatians 4:28). We are children of the promise because of having faith like Isaac and his father Abraham had. You think carnally instead of spiritually and that's why you don't understand these scriptures. You have your mind always on national Israel of which most reject Christ when the people of God are those who have faith and are spiritual Israel.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I agree YES that no one can bring a charge against us, the Body of Christ and that the Lord is interceding for us. However - (in my previous post)

Satan and his fallen angels were cast to the Principalities and powers realm, the Universe. (Col 1: 16 Eph. 2: 2 6: 12) Then in the trib, we read they were cast to the earth. (Rev. 12: 9) And Satan is accusing those on the earth in the trib, who turned to God. And he can`t accuse us for we will be in heaven.

Now did you read what I wrote about the `something better?` Here it is again.

`God having provided some better thing for us, (the Body of Christ).` (Heb. 11: 14) The `something better,` is a greater dominion. From the Greek - Kkreitton, better, from kraios, dominion.

We, the Body of Christ will be with Christ on His throne in the highest over all God`s great kingdom while the OT saints will be in the city which comes down to the universal realm.

No one is better than anyone else it all has to do with rulership under Christ. he has some in the highest realm and some in the universal realm and some on the earth. All rulership is by the Lord and all under His sovereign rulership.

The nations are the nations while the Body of Christ is called OUT of the nations.

There is no indication of the Body of Christ in the city. It is all about the OT saints and Israel.


So again, I ask where are the scriptures of heaven coming to earth?

I addressed all of that in the post you responded to, yet, here you are acting as if I didn't. This has become completely fruitless and pointless because you will not specifically address my points. It's time to agree to disagree and move on.

 

[ViaCrucis]

To sum it up: New Creation.

God created human beings in His Image and likeness, to reflect His Image to creation and rule over creation justly, wisely, and in goodness. It was, in a sense, a kingly-priestly vocation which was given; to rule and care.

Sin and death entered the picture, so we and all of creation became broken. Through our brokenness came the brokenness of all creation.

From Abraham to Moses, and through all the Prophets of Israel, pointing toward Jesus, God foreshadows Jesus.

In Christ sin and death are defeated, human nature is repaired; in Christ is the new creation, and our union to Christ, our being in Christ, means our participation in new creation--our redemption, our salvation, our hope of resurrection; and when at long last history reaches its conclusion, when Christ returns to judge, the dead are raised, God is putting all things to rights, all creation is restored and healed. So that in Christ there is new creation, and we in Christ are partakers of that new creation even right now, and so through our salvation--the salvation and repair of human beings--God is healing and fixing and repairing all of creation. Creation was broken because of the disobedient act of one man; so creation is being restored through the righteous obedient act of one Man.

The inheritance is Christ's. Christ inherits all things. We, in Christ, are co-heirs with Christ. So, in Christ, we are the inheritors of all things--the new creation. Israel of old inherited a land of promise, that land of promise was to reflect Eden, even as the people being brought into the land were to be a new people, to care for a land even as Adam had been given the Garden. So that through Israel God was showing forth the redemptive power of His grace, to point forward to Christ. Israel was meant to be a kind of microcosm which was to reveal God's intended purpose for the whole world through the Messiah. It was always about Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Marilyn C]

To sum it up: New Creation.

God created human beings in His Image and likeness, to reflect His Image to creation and rule over creation justly, wisely, and in goodness. It was, in a sense, a kingly-priestly vocation which was given; to rule and care.

Sin and death entered the picture, so we and all of creation became broken. Through our brokenness came the brokenness of all creation.

From Abraham to Moses, and through all the Prophets of Israel, pointing toward Jesus, God foreshadows Jesus.

In Christ sin and death are defeated, human nature is repaired; in Christ is the new creation, and our union to Christ, our being in Christ, means our participation in new creation--our redemption, our salvation, our hope of resurrection; and when at long last history reaches its conclusion, when Christ returns to judge, the dead are raised, God is putting all things to rights, all creation is restored and healed. So that in Christ there is new creation, and we in Christ are partakers of that new creation even right now, and so through our salvation--the salvation and repair of human beings--God is healing and fixing and repairing all of creation. Creation was broken because of the disobedient act of one man; so creation is being restored through the righteous obedient act of one Man.

The inheritance is Christ's. Christ inherits all things. We, in Christ, are co-heirs with Christ. So, in Christ, we are the inheritors of all things--the new creation. Israel of old inherited a land of promise, that land of promise was to reflect Eden, even as the people being brought into the land were to be a new people, to care for a land even as Adam had been given the Garden. So that through Israel God was showing forth the redemptive power of His grace, to point forward to Christ. Israel was meant to be a kind of microcosm which was to reveal God's intended purpose for the whole world through the Messiah. It was always about Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

I do like how you state that is a sense, a king-priestly vocation.

And a lot of good comments there.