What is our "default" condition in regards to salvation?

[payattention]

And Adam was not deceived, as Paul states, and I see no evidence at all that Adam would have to be lost if he had not eaten of it.

Romans 5 seems to trace the fall to Adam, not to Eve. Of course, your real problem with Paul is you don't WANT to believe what he says.

If you think that Adam did not fall under the curse until he also ate you have to deny the Biblical record. First, you must deny that they were one. Second, you now turn Adam into Eve's Savior since it is his act that saved her from destruction. You have just turned Eve into a second class human. That is not the story of the creation. When Eve fell Adam fell because Eve was Adam. They were not separate.

If you read Timothy where Paul makes the woman was deceived argument you will find that the point he is making does not even make complete sense. He was trying to support a male/female distinction and does not do a very good job of it. My concern is not with Paul but with "the rest of the story." (Apologies to Paul Harvey.)

 

[tall73]

Of course, because you don't want to admit Paul's evidence. If through Adam came death, and death to all because all sinned, then this would be quite a short discussion. But then you want only the evidence admitted that you prefer.

Why are we accepting the account of the creation? Wasn't Moses subject to the same limitations you place on Paul and all the rest?

And no, I don't deny anything. They were a married couple. But they answered to God individually. Adam was never Eve's savior, and we have no idea how God would have reacted had only one actually fallen. It says they both ate. But Adam's fall was somewhat more significant because there was not even a hint that he was deceived.

Of course, again, did Eve need to be deceived? You said that it hinges on her hearing it from God. I was not present when God gave the 10 commandments. Am I exempt from keeping them?

I don't think so. They both violated God's express command. And so do we. By doing so we condemn ourselves to death, which is our default condition after sin.

 

[Vaudois]

It's amazing the gymnastics some folks will go through to avoid facing the fact that they are not as smart or righteous as they would like to appear to be in spiritual matters.

To me the first sign of a confused soul is unhappiness and defensiveness. Attackers are hurt people; but most men would never cop to that.

review Adam's reaction when the Lord came to see him in Eden after he fell: unhappy (not mentioned in the Word) and defensive (clearly so; Adam hid and blamed Eve)

 

[payattention]

Two thousand years of needless suffering cries out to our insistence that we have it right. Two thousand more years may be what we desire.

 

[tall73]

Two thousand years of needless suffering cries out to our insistence that we have it right. Two thousand more years may be what we desire.

Payattention,this reasoning is a trend. Do you know why we are still here? You frequently seem to imply that it is because we have a false understanding on certain questions. But I don't see any way that you would know that, or can demonstrate it. Moreoever, I don't see why you get into these discussions in the first place if in the end you are simply going to say they don't matter, that the real issue is the second coming.

Obviously they do matter or you wouldn't start discussing them.

And how can your better understanding of the created order assure you that we are to blame for the failure of the second coming?

You frequently lament that we are still here, and essentially say it is our fault. What would you change specifically to alleviate this problem? If this is the main issue facing all of Christianity, why have you not made a post telling us quite clearly what all of the issues are?

And why have you introduced many posts that have nothing to do with this question, if they obscure the one thing we need to know.

If in fact you have a pressing message for the world, you are taking the round about way of delivering it.

Finally, the fact that the second coming has not happened could be used by any of us as an argument for whatever we like, if we used it in that way. Perhaps the second coming hasn't happened because not everyone has accepted my view of it , instead of yours?

My point is simply that you cannot demonstrate a connection. So this use of the argument to seemingly settle debates is fruitless.

 

[orpinams]

Payattention,this reasoning is a trend. Do you know why we are still here? You frequently seem to imply that it is because we have a false understanding on certain questions. But I don't see any way that you would know that, or can demonstrate it. Moreoever, I don't see why you get into these discussions in the first place if in the end you are simply going to say they don't matter, that the real issue is the second coming.

Obviously they do matter or you wouldn't start discussing them.

And how can your better understanding of the created order assure you that we are to blame for the failure of the second coming?

You frequently lament that we are still here, and essentially say it is our fault. What would you change specifically to alleviate this problem? If this is the main issue facing all of Christianity, why have you not made a post telling us quite clearly what all of the issues are?

And why have you introduced many posts that have nothing to do with this question, if they obscure the one thing we need to know.

If in fact you have a pressing message for the world, you are taking the round about way of delivering it.

Finally, the fact that the second coming has not happened could be used by any of us as an argument for whatever we like, if we used it in that way. Perhaps the second coming hasn't happened because not everyone has accepted my view of it , instead of yours?

My point is simply that you cannot demonstrate a connection. So this use of the argument to seemingly settle debates is fruitless.

Some Christians say Jesus has come when He comes in our hearts. What do you think. I don't agree but that seems to be the only way to get peace in this horrible, dreadful and unforgiving world. Look at all those people that just died in that earthquake in Pakistan.

 

[reddogs]

This debate has been started a few times in various threads, and most recently in one on the progressive board. Since I can't debate there, and since it keeps going into other threads, I thought I would post it here!


Are all people saved by default unless they reject God?

Or

Are all people by default lost unless they repent and are born again?


Other related questions:

are we children of God or the Devil by default?

Who rules this world?

Excellent questions.....

 

[Your Neighbor]

Only two possibilities:
children of the kingdom...children of the wicked one. Matt. 13:38.

children of God ...children of the Devil. 1 John 3:10.

wheat...weeds. Matthew 13:26

good man...evil man. Luke 6:45

good tree...corrupt tree. Matthew 7:17

born again...(not born again). John 3:3

converted...(unconverted). Acts 3:19

Unless one is conceived and birthed as a converted or born-again Christian, there's only one choice left.