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What is meant by the word "information" in ID?

loveofourlord

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That might be useful...it might be a coffee stain.
It's not in a format that I can decipher.
And if it was deciphered, it might not be useful to me yet.

The majority of DNA is not understood as to why it exists.
But thanks for the picture.

actually alot of dna is understood why it exists, because it's just junk DNA and stuff that once had a use and no longer did, or parts of it that got duplicated. The stuff that helps us know its evolved, like genes that don't be long in our dna unless we came from ape ancestors.
 
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SkyWriting

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actually alot of dna is understood why it exists, because it's just junk DNA and stuff that once had a use and no longer did, or parts of it that got duplicated. The stuff that helps us know its evolved, like genes that don't be long in our dna unless we came from ape ancestors.

The term "junk DNA" has fallen out of favor because the purpose has been found for a lot of what used to be called "Junk". One Creationist prediction is that 100% will be found to have purpose.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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The term "junk DNA" has fallen out of favor because the purpose has been found for a lot of what used to be called "Junk". One Creationist prediction is that 100% will be found to have purpose.
What is that "prediction" based on? Anyone can throw out an unsupported claim. For it to be a prediction there has to be some support, not just a whim.
 
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SLP

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That might be useful...it might be a coffee stain.
It's not in a format that I can decipher.
Huh...
And if it was deciphered, it might not be useful to me yet.
Why not? Can't you measure its "information"?
The majority of DNA is not understood as to why it exists.
What does that even mean?
But thanks for the picture.
It is a picture of DNA.

Without your human descriptions of it, you cannot even see it for what it is.
 
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SLP

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The term "junk DNA" has fallen out of favor because the purpose has been found for a lot of what used to be called "Junk". One Creationist prediction is that 100% will be found to have purpose.
LOL!

One creationist that predicts such a thing is an idiot.

From a biochemist's blog:

Junk in Your Genome

Transposable Elements: (44% junk)

DNA transposons:
active (functional): <0.1%
defective (nonfunctional): 3%
retrotransposons:
active (functional): <0.1%
defective transposons
(full-length, nonfunctional): 8%
L1 LINES (fragments, nonfunctional): 16%
other LINES: 4%
SINES (small pseudogene fragments): 13%
co-opted transposons/fragments: <0.1% a
aCo-opted transposons and transposon fragments are those that have secondarily acquired a new function.Viruses (9% junk)

DNA viruses
active (functional): <0.1%
defective DNA viruses: ~1%
RNA viruses
active (functional): <0.1%
defective (nonfunctional): 8%
co-opted RNA viruses: <0.1% b
bCo-opted RNA viruses are defective integrated virus genomes that have secondarily acquired a new function.Pseudogenes (1.2% junk)
(from protein-encoding genes): 1.2% junk
co-opted pseudogenes: <0.1% c
cCo-opted pseudogenes are formerly defective pseudogenes those that have secondarily acquired a new function.Ribosomal RNA genes:
essential 0.22%
junk 0.19%

Other RNA encoding genes
tRNA genes: <0.1% (essential)
known small RNA genes: <0.1% (essential)
putative regulatory RNAs: ~2% (essential) Protein-encoding genes: (9.6% junk)
transcribed region:
essential 1.8%
intron junk (not included above) 9.6% d
dIntrons sequences account for about 30% of the genome. Most of these sequences qualify as junk but they are littered with defective transposable elements that are already included in the calculation of junk DNA.Regulatory sequences:
essential 0.6%

Origins of DNA replication
<0.1% (essential) Scaffold attachment regions (SARS)
<0.1% (essential) Highly Repetitive DNA (1% junk)
α-satellite DNA (centromeres)
essential 2.0%
non-essential 1.0%%
telomeres
essential (less than 1000 kb, insignificant)

Intergenic DNA (not included above)
conserved 2% (essential)
non-conserved 26.3% (unknown but probably junk)

Total Essential/Functional (so far) = 8.7%
Total Junk (so far) = 65%
Unknown (probably mostly junk) = 26.3%
For references and further information click on the "Genomes & Junk DNA" link in the box

LAST UPDATE: May 10, 2011 (fixed totals, and ribosomal RNA calculations)
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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The term "junk DNA" has fallen out of favor because the purpose has been found for a lot of what used to be called "Junk". One Creationist prediction is that 100% will be found to have purpose.
I suppose that if you're taught that everything has a purpose, that's inevitable. OTOH, 'purpose' is a weasel word - non-coding DNA can be an indicator to start transcription, stop transcription, or a telomeric cap, and so-on. DNA that has no apparent role whatsoever could potentially become useful. It wouldn't be hard to argue that some DNA is there 'just in case', or simply to take up space in the genome.
 
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SkyWriting

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I suppose that if you're taught that everything has a purpose, that's inevitable. OTOH, 'purpose' is a weasel word - non-coding DNA can be an indicator to start transcription, stop transcription, or a telomeric cap, and so-on. DNA that has no apparent role whatsoever could potentially become useful. It wouldn't be hard to argue that some DNA is there 'just in case', or simply to take up space in the genome.
Many researchers have done that. The amount of "usable DNA" varies from 1% to 12% to 80% depending on the "value" assigned.
 
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SkyWriting

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LOL! One creationist that predicts such a thing is an idiot.

From a biochemist's blog:

Junk in Your Genome

Transposable Elements: (44% junk)

DNA transposons:
active (functional): <0.1%
defective (nonfunctional): 3%
retrotransposons:
active (functional): <0.1%
defective transposons
(full-length, nonfunctional): 8%
L1 LINES (fragments, nonfunctional): 16%
other LINES: 4%
SINES (small pseudogene fragments): 13%
co-opted transposons/fragments: <0.1% a
aCo-opted transposons and transposon fragments are those that have secondarily acquired a new function.Viruses (9% junk)

DNA viruses
active (functional): <0.1%
defective DNA viruses: ~1%
RNA viruses
active (functional): <0.1%
defective (nonfunctional): 8%
co-opted RNA viruses: <0.1% b
bCo-opted RNA viruses are defective integrated virus genomes that have secondarily acquired a new function.Pseudogenes (1.2% junk)
(from protein-encoding genes): 1.2% junk
co-opted pseudogenes: <0.1% c
cCo-opted pseudogenes are formerly defective pseudogenes those that have secondarily acquired a new function.Ribosomal RNA genes:
essential 0.22%
junk 0.19%

Other RNA encoding genes
tRNA genes: <0.1% (essential)
known small RNA genes: <0.1% (essential)
putative regulatory RNAs: ~2% (essential) Protein-encoding genes: (9.6% junk)
transcribed region:
essential 1.8%
intron junk (not included above) 9.6% d
dIntrons sequences account for about 30% of the genome. Most of these sequences qualify as junk but they are littered with defective transposable elements that are already included in the calculation of junk DNA.Regulatory sequences:
essential 0.6%

Origins of DNA replication
<0.1% (essential) Scaffold attachment regions (SARS)
<0.1% (essential) Highly Repetitive DNA (1% junk)
α-satellite DNA (centromeres)
essential 2.0%
non-essential 1.0%%
telomeres
essential (less than 1000 kb, insignificant)

Intergenic DNA (not included above)
conserved 2% (essential)
non-conserved 26.3% (unknown but probably junk)

Total Essential/Functional (so far) = 8.7%
Total Junk
(so far) = 65%
Unknown
(probably mostly junk) = 26.3%
For references and further information click on the "Genomes & Junk DNA" link in the box

LAST UPDATE: May 10, 2011 (fixed totals, and ribosomal RNA calculations)


Just because it's value is not understood, doesn't mean it will never be understood.
And the trend is moving in the direction of 100% every day.

From world respected sources:

Hidden Treasures in Junk DNA - Scientific American
https://www.scientificamerican.com › article › hidden-treasures-in-junk-dna
Oct 1, 2012 - The phrase “junk DNA” has haunted human genetics ever since. In 2000, when scientists of the Human Genome Project presented the first ...


Junk DNA Isn't Junk, and That Isn't Really News - Smithsonian
https://www.smithsonianmag.com › smart-news › junk-dna-isnt-junk-and-t...
Remember in high school or college, when you learned about all that DNA inside of you that was junk? The strings and strings of nonsense ...
 
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SLP

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Just because it's value is not understood, doesn't mean it will never be understood.
There are all things that ARE understood:
Transposable Elements: (44% junk)

DNA transposons:
active (functional): <0.1%
defective (nonfunctional): 3%
retrotransposons:
active (functional): <0.1%
defective transposons
(full-length, nonfunctional): 8%
L1 LINES (fragments, nonfunctional): 16%
other LINES: 4%
SINES (small pseudogene fragments): 13%
co-opted transposons/fragments: <0.1% a
aCo-opted transposons and transposon fragments are those that have secondarily acquired a new function.Viruses (9% junk)

DNA viruses
active (functional): <0.1%
defective DNA viruses: ~1%
RNA viruses
active (functional): <0.1%
defective (nonfunctional): 8%
co-opted RNA viruses: <0.1% b
bCo-opted RNA viruses are defective integrated virus genomes that have secondarily acquired a new function.Pseudogenes (1.2% junk)
(from protein-encoding genes): 1.2% junk
co-opted pseudogenes: <0.1% c
cCo-opted pseudogenes are formerly defective pseudogenes those that have secondarily acquired a new function.Ribosomal RNA genes:
essential 0.22%
junk 0.19%

Other RNA encoding genes
tRNA genes: <0.1% (essential)
known small RNA genes: <0.1% (essential)
putative regulatory RNAs: ~2% (essential) Protein-encoding genes: (9.6% junk)
transcribed region:
essential 1.8%
intron junk (not included above) 9.6% d
dIntrons sequences account for about 30% of the genome. Most of these sequences qualify as junk but they are littered with defective transposable elements that are already included in the calculation of junk DNA.Regulatory sequences:
essential 0.6%

Origins of DNA replication
<0.1% (essential) Scaffold attachment regions (SARS)
<0.1% (essential) Highly Repetitive DNA (1% junk)
α-satellite DNA (centromeres)
essential 2.0%
non-essential 1.0%%
telomeres
essential (less than 1000 kb, insignificant)

Intergenic DNA (not included above)
conserved 2% (essential)
non-conserved 26.3% (unknown but probably junk)

Total Essential/Functional (so far) = 8.7%
Total Junk
(so far) = 65%
Unknown
(probably mostly junk) = 26.3%
For references and further information click on the "Genomes & Junk DNA" link in the box

LAST UPDATE: May 10, 2011 (fixed totals, and ribosomal RNA calculations)


What made you think that all of that is not understood?
And the trend is moving in the direction of 100% every day.
Not really.

Ewan Birney?

Did you not see this - on his own blog, wherein he pretends to discuss the 80% claim with himself:


Q. Hmmm. Let’s move onto the science. I don’t buy that 80% of the genome is functional.

A. It’s clear that 80% of the genome has a specific biochemical activity – whatever that might be. This question hinges on the word “functional” so let’s try to tackle this first. Like many English language words, “functional” is a very useful but context-dependent word. ... Pragmatically, in ENCODE we define our criteria as “specific biochemical activity” – for example, an assay that identifies a series of bases. This is not the entire genome (so, for example, things like “having a phosphodiester bond” would not qualify). We then subset this into different classes of assay; in decreasing order of coverage these are: RNA, “broad” histone modifications, “narrow” histone modifications, DNaseI hypersensitive sites, Transcription Factor ChIP-seq peaks, DNaseI Footprints, Transcription Factor bound motifs, and finally Exons.

Q. So remind me which one do you think is “functional”?

A. Back to that word “functional”: There is no easy answer to this. ...
However, on the other end of the scale – using very strict, classical definitions of “functional”– like bound motifs and DNaseI footprints; places where we are very confident that there is a specific DNA:protein contact, such as a transcription factor binding site to the actual bases - we see a cumulative occupation of 8% of the genome. With the exons (which most people would always classify as “functional” by intuition) that number goes up to 9%....A conservative estimate of our expected coverage of exons + specific DNA:protein contacts gives us 18%, easily further justified (given our sampling) to 20%​

So using their actual data, and employing definitions of "functional" that means that the DNA does something that produces an effect (as opposed to just being able to be bound to), they could, under favorable assumptions, extrapolate the ACTUAL number to maybe 20%. And the best part:


Q. Ok, fair enough. But are you most comfortable with the 10% to 20% figure for the hard-core functional bases? Why emphasize the 80% figure in the abstract and press release?

A. (Sigh.) Indeed. Originally I pushed for using an “80% overall” figure and a “20% conservative floor” figure, since the 20% was extrapolated from the sampling. But putting two percentage-based numbers in the same breath/paragraph is asking a lot of your listener/reader – they need to understand why there is such a big difference between the two numbers, and that takes perhaps more explaining than most people have the patience for. We had to decide on a percentage, because that is easier to visualize, and we choose 80% because (a) it is inclusive of all the ENCODE experiments (and we did not want to leave any of the sub-projects out) and (b) 80% best coveys the difference between a genome made mostly of dead wood and one that is alive with activity. We refer also to “4 million switches”, and that represents the bound motifs and footprints.

We use the bigger number because it brings home the impact of this work to a much wider audience. But we are in fact using an accurate, well-defined figure when we say that 80% of the genome has specific biological activity.​

IOW - it was basically marketing.

Oh, and you support an interview with Birnery with a .... story about the ENCODE releases that Birney played a part in...

Yeah, so, you have nothing.
 
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SLP

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Many researchers have done that. The amount of "usable DNA" varies from 1% to 12% to 80% depending on the "value" assigned.
And the 80% figure refers to DNA just being able to interact with something. No actual function, just interaction..

But lets say that the entire genome is totally 'functional', that is, it actually does something relevant to the physiology/morphology of the organism.

Why would the single-celled Amoeba Polychaos dubium need 20* times more DNA than humans, God's amazing favorite creations? Made in His image?


*earlier measurements of them having 670 GB genomes was apparently in error, it is now thought that they have a mere 67 GB genome, which is still 20x our own.
 
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loveofourlord

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The term "junk DNA" has fallen out of favor because the purpose has been found for a lot of what used to be called "Junk". One Creationist prediction is that 100% will be found to have purpose.

SOME of that junk DNA is known, and others we know what they USED to do, like the 4% of our DNA that is devoted to scent that not even other apes or monkey's use, and other things. We know their use at one point, but not why we would have DNA that has no use any more, but makes no sense unless we had ape and monkey ancestors.
 
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SkyWriting

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I suppose that if you're taught that everything has a purpose, that's inevitable. OTOH, 'purpose' is a weasel word - non-coding DNA can be an indicator to start transcription, stop transcription, or a telomeric cap, and so-on. DNA that has no apparent role whatsoever could potentially become useful. It wouldn't be hard to argue that some DNA is there 'just in case', or simply to take up space in the genome.

What is that "prediction" based on? Anyone can throw out an unsupported claim. For it to be a prediction there has to be some support, not just a whim.

And the 80% figure refers to DNA just being able to interact with something. No actual function, just interaction.

actually alot of dna is understood why it exists, because it's just junk DNA and stuff that once had a use and no longer did, or parts of it that got duplicated.

Lets suppose that the "Junk" DNA is potentially useful.
Because...that's what we have discovered:
Junk DNA Isn’t Junk, and That Isn’t Really News | Smart News | Smithsonian
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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SkyWriting

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Oh good grief, not the ENCODE stuff again... the difference between transcribed, biologically active, and functional has been done to death enough times on this forum...

Those three have nothing to do with potentially active. Good try though.

images
 
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SkyWriting

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Potentially active or potentially functional?
Those three have nothing to do with potentially useful, which is what I am discussing, that 100% of DNA has the potential to be used in future generations or currently has switch genes imbedded in it.
 
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SkyWriting

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Oh good grief, not the ENCODE stuff again... the difference between transcribed, biologically active, and functional has been done to death enough times on this forum...
Oh good grief, you didn't read the OP yet?

"I am unaware of any other explanations proffered by any creationists - if anyone knows of any, please post."
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Those three have nothing to do with potentially useful, which is what I am discussing, that 100% of DNA has the potential to be used in future generations or currently has switch genes imbedded in it.
And? are you saying that if it has the potential to be useful it's not junk DNA?
 
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SkyWriting

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And? are you saying that if it has the potential to be useful it's not junk DNA?

It would be dormant DNA, waiting to be used in the future. Not junk.
"if anyone knows of any, please post."



good-grief.jpg
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Oh good grief, you didn't read the OP yet?
The OP is asking what the definition of information is in ID; if you're suggesting that junk DNA is information because it's potentially useful, I agree - I'd go further, it's information whether or not it's potentially useful.

Are you suggesting that 'potentially useful DNA' is the definition of information in ID? if not, what?
 
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