What is meant by the word "information" in ID?

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
7,438
2,794
Hartford, Connecticut
✟295,488.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
As the title states, what is "information" with respect to claims by intelligent design.

Sometimes people will state that intelligent design involves the observation of entities that contain "information", therefore suggesting that they are designed. But what does this mean?
 

Brightmoon

Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.
Mar 2, 2018
6,297
5,539
NYC
✟151,950.00
Country
United States
Faith
Episcopalian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I’ve got no idea as the creationist ID version of information is a hodgepodge ofShannon type information and genetic information and made to be as vague as possible so that you can’t pin it down to either
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
As the title states, what is "information" with respect to claims by intelligent design.

Sometimes people will state that intelligent design involves the observation of entities that contain "information", therefore suggesting that they are designed. But what does this mean?
It means useful information. Information that produces expected results.
If you do any computer programming you learn the difference between the
outcome of deliberate design and encoded information, and garbage.

Garbage In - Garbage out.

A trash can can be filled with information. But if it is not in a form
that is usable, it remains garbage. Somebody can create a system
to harvest the information and if a process is put into place, the garbage
information can be used to...say...steal your identity.

But
IF
the information is in a usable form,
AND
processed correctly
THEN
it might produce results.
ELSE
the effort will fail.
 
Upvote 0

pitabread

Well-Known Member
Jan 29, 2017
12,920
13,372
Frozen North
✟336,823.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
If you do any computer programming you learn the difference between the
outcome of deliberate design and encoded information, and garbage.

I've noticed that rather that define information as it relates to genetics, invariability ID proponents reach for analogies with language, computer code, etc. It never fails.

If you had to define information as it specifically relates to genetics and without using an analogy, could you do it?
 
  • Optimistic
Reactions: SLP
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I've noticed that rather that define information as it relates to genetics, invariability ID proponents reach for analogies with language, computer code, etc. It never fails.

If you had to define information as it specifically relates to genetics and without using an analogy, could you do it?
What did you have in mind, without any illustrations?

biological information coded in the nucleotide sequences of dna or rna (certain viruses), such as in the chromosomes or in plasmids.


Genetic Information
The genetic information of an organism is stored in DNA molecules. How can one kind of molecule contain all the instructions for making complicated living beings like ourselves? What component or feature of DNA can contain this information? It has to come from the nitrogen bases, because, as you already know, the backbone of all DNA molecules is the same. But there are only four bases found in DNA: G, A, C, and T. The sequence of these four bases can provide all the instructions needed to build any living organism. It might be hard to imagine that 4 different “letters” can communicate so much information. But think about the English language, which can represent a huge amount of information using just 26 letters. Even more profound is the binary code used to write computer programs. This code contains only ones and zeros, and think of all the things your computer can do. The DNA alphabet can encode very complex instructions using just four letters, though the messages end up being really long. For example, the E. coli bacterium carries its genetic instructions in a DNA molecule that contains more than five million nucleotides. The human genome (all the DNA of an organism) consists of around three billion nucleotides divided up between 23 paired DNA molecules, or chromosomes.

The information stored in the order of bases is organized into genes: each gene contains information for making a functional product. The genetic information is first copied to another nucleic acid polymer, RNA (ribonucleic acid), preserving the order of the nucleotide bases. Genes that contain instructions for making proteins are converted to messenger RNA (mRNA). Some specialized genes contain instructions for making functional RNA molecules that don’t make proteins. These RNA molecules function by affecting cellular processes directly; for example some of these RNA molecules regulate the expression of mRNA. Other genes produce RNA molecules that are required for protein synthesis, transfer RNA (tRNA), and ribosomal RNA (rRNA).

In order for DNA to function effectively at storing information, two key processes are required. First, information stored in the DNA molecule must be copied, with minimal errors, every time a cell divides. This ensures that both daughter cells inherit the complete set of genetic information from the parent cell. Second, the information stored in the DNA molecule must be translated, or expressed. In order for the stored information to be useful, cells must be able to access the instructions for making specific proteins, so the correct proteins are made in the right place at the right time.

molecular_DNA.png



Figure 1. DNA’s double helix. Graphic modified from “DNA chemical structure,” by Madeleine Price Ball, CC-BY-SA-2.0

Both copying and reading the information stored in DNA relies on base pairing between two nucleic acid polymer strands. Recall that DNA structure is a double helix (see Figure 1).

The sugar deoxyribose with the phosphate group forms the scaffold or backbone of the molecule (highlighted in yellow in Figure 1). Bases point inward. Complementary bases form hydrogen bonds with each other within the double helix. See how the bigger bases (purines) pair with the smaller ones (pyrimidines). This keeps the width of the double helix constant. More specifically, A pairs with T and C pairs with G. As we discuss the function of DNA in subsequent sections, keep in mind that there is a chemical reason for specific pairing of bases.

To illustrate the connection between information in DNA and an observable characteristic of an organism, let’s consider a gene that provides the instructions for building the hormone insulin. Insulin is responsible for regulating blood sugar levels. The insulin gene contains instructions for assembling the protein insulin from individual amino acids. Changing the sequence of nucleotides in the DNA molecule can change the amino acids in the final protein, leading to protein malfunction. If insulin does not function correctly, it might be unable to bind to another protein (insulin receptor). On the organismal level of organization, this molecular event (change of DNA sequence) can lead to a disease state—in this case, diabetes.

Genetic Information | Biology for Majors I
 
Upvote 0

pitabread

Well-Known Member
Jan 29, 2017
12,920
13,372
Frozen North
✟336,823.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
What did you have in mind, without any illustrations?

A definition that defines information as it pertains to genetics without relying on analogies to language, computer code, etc.

Which means I don't think you read the giant copy-paste you just posted.
 
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
7,438
2,794
Hartford, Connecticut
✟295,488.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
It means useful information. Information that produces expected results.
If you do any computer programming you learn the difference between the
outcome of deliberate design and encoded information, and garbage.

Garbage In - Garbage out.

A trash can can be filled with information. But if it is not in a form
that is usable, it remains garbage. Somebody can create a system
to harvest the information and if a process is put into place, the garbage
information can be used to...say...steal your identity.

But
IF
the information is in a usable form,
AND
processed correctly
THEN
it might produce results.
ELSE
the effort will fail.

Wouldn't a trash can with my identification information always be filled with information, whether someone could read my information or not?

And how is it that information can be garbage? Is not all information valuable?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Ophiolite
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Wouldn't a trash can with my identification information always be filled with information, whether someone could read my information or not? And how is it that information can be garbage? Is not all information valuable?
All information is not valuable. It must be in an intelligent and useful format.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
A definition that defines information as it pertains to genetics without relying on analogies to language, computer code, etc.Which means I don't think you read the giant copy-paste you just posted.

Words are analogies. Now you are complaining about my research?
You just invented "Giant copy-paste" as a stand-in for something I posted
instead of the actual post content.
 
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
7,438
2,794
Hartford, Connecticut
✟295,488.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
All information is not valuable. It must be in an intelligent and useful format.

Ok so information can have value or not have value.

And is all trash in a trash can considered information?
 
Upvote 0

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Site Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,500
Milwaukee
✟410,948.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Ok so information can have value or not have value.

And is all trash in a trash can considered information?

I have no idea what condition or format the info in the can has.
It might be worthless scrap and no longer useful as information.
We can only guess.
 
Upvote 0

Job 33:6

Well-Known Member
Jun 15, 2017
7,438
2,794
Hartford, Connecticut
✟295,488.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I have no idea what condition or format the info in the can has.
It might be worthless scrap and no longer useful as information.
We can only guess.

How can we differentiate between trash that is information and trash that is not? It has to be legible words on paper?
 
Upvote 0

Shemjaza

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Apr 17, 2006
6,214
3,834
45
✟924,291.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
AU-Greens
I'm waiting for both a metric and an objective measure of the "information" part of ID.

(Though, I'm not holding my breath.)

I'm almost impressed how little specifics there are in Specified Complexity.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

pitabread

Well-Known Member
Jan 29, 2017
12,920
13,372
Frozen North
✟336,823.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Now you are complaining about my research?

Copying and pasting the first thing you find on Google doesn't count as "research".

You just invented "Giant copy-paste" as a stand-in for something I posted
instead of the actual post content.

I'm not sure you even read what you copied.
 
Upvote 0

Ophiolite

Recalcitrant Procrastinating Ape
Nov 12, 2008
8,618
9,591
✟239,870.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
All information is not valuable. It must be in an intelligent and useful format.
You are talking about data, not information. Information is always valuable as it informs us of something otherwise unknown. That's why it's called information.

Data>>Information>>Knowledge>>Wisdom

You seem to have got hung up in the lower echelons of the sequence,:)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums