What IS MATT 16:18 REALLY TEACHING ?

[JulieB67]

Without it I am spiritually dead.

As Paul states once someone believes and enters into Christ's rest- one only needs to approach his throne boldy (veil was rent from top to bottom) to obtain mercy and grace in a time of need.

But to each his own.

 

[RileyG]

As Paul states once someone believes and enters into Christ's rest- one only needs to approach his throne boldy (veil was rent from top to bottom) to obtain mercy and grace in a time of need.

But to each his own.

I agree, but still need word and sacrament for my spiritual life.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

As Paul states once someone believes and enters into Christ's rest- one only needs to approach his throne boldy (veil was rent from top to bottom) to obtain mercy and grace in a time of need.

But to each his own.

And what is the consequence of thinking differently from you?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Of course we do. But we shouldn't need a church to keep us vigilant. If you do than you're not very grounded to begin with. The Holy Spirit is what continues to work and ground us, mature us and we can only do that by staying true to his Word, not straying from it. I suppose some might need help to stay grounded, motivated. I myself am not a one day a week Christian. I'm a Christian 24/7. It's a reality, not a religion.
Yes, fellowship and encouragement and assembling together is a good thing. But they're not necessities for salvation.

If you feel like you need your church to do that for you, so be it. I grew up in a church that taught false doctrines. Again, I'm not saying all are bad but they need to be tested to see if they hold to the traditions that were brought forth in the Word.

We have to decide for ourselves and work out our own salvation as Paul states. We have to study to show ourselves approved and so on. We're on our own personal journey after all. And we have to face God ourselves at Judgement. We can't drag our church with us and blame them if things go badly.

Incorrect, the Church was founded by Jesus Christ and through His apostles, to shun the Church and the fellowship of others,, in effect dispising the means of Grace, His Word, and the Sacraments. Excluding one's self from the fellowship of others is self imposed excommunication.

...where two ore three are gathered together...

 

[JulieB67]

Incorrect, the Church was founded by Jesus Chris to shun the Church and the fellowship of others

I'm talking about going to a physical church once a week. The real Church itself is the many membered body/community/founded by Christ that upholds the traditions that were brought forth. And they can meet any time and anywhere. I would never shun them and I don't. And I generally love people regardless. But while fellowship is a good thing it is not a necessary for one's salvation. Some don't even have the means or like minded people that they consider part of that real Church to assemble together. Again, God is the heart knower.

n effect dispising the means of Grace

The means of grace comes by our faith and belief in Christ, not going to a physical building once a week- So, no I don't not despise the means of Grace, I love it and am thankful for it.

Romans 5:1 "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:"

Romans 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."


Hebrews 4:16 "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."

It's God's grace that teaches us-

Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,"

Titus 2:12 "Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

If one has come to true repentance, that true change of mind and heart then God's grace/Holy Spirit will continue to teach them these things. Of course all fall short and always will until the end but the change of heart is there and we know we have an advocate -Christ when we do. And if some can't assemble at times with part of the real Church because of whatever means, he knows.

Are you stating God's grace can't teach us these things outside of a physical church? It continues to teach me just as verse 2:12 states.

...where two ore three are gathered together...

Again, that can happen anywhere and anytime. Even just two people.

Hebrews 10:24 "And let us consider on another to provoke unto love and to good works:"

Hebrews 10:25 "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."

I also take part in these.

But again, it's not necessary for one's salvation It's just the nature of a true Christian wanting to have fellowship with like minded people -wanting to encourage and exhort one another. Especially in these times more than ever.

We have to test the physical churches, if they teach anything other than the traditions that were brought forth, I do not consider them part of that real Church. Far from it. Christ states by their fruits we shall know them. And that's what I always consider when thinking about certain churches. I left my own because of false doctrines.

You stated this

We need to be vigilant that we too are numbered among all the company of heaven!

And I agree, but I want to be part of the few that find this

Matthew 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

I will put my salvation in no other hands but Christ. And it's by him that I will find grace that leads me right to the Father's throne.

When I state that we have to work out our own salvation. I'm just stating Paul's words because it's not the church that saves but it's God that works within us. He stated that they were to assert themselves even more in his absence because it's God that works within us. Paul laid that foundation but it is up to us what to do with it.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Christ is that ROCK and there are many verses that say that , like , Matt 7:26 , Matt 12:10 , Matt 21:42 , Luke 20:7 and Mark 12:10 and 1 Peter 2:7

It seem to me that many EKKLESIA / ASSEMBLIES are building what Christ will build in the MILLENNIAL KINGDOM and that is a lot of WORK for Nothing .

Christ is the head of the church. The church is His Body, and also Christ, Peter alone is in no way solely the foundation of the church, for the Spirit elaborates on this teaching under discussion.
Ephesians 2:
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Apologies in advance if this has already come up in the discussion, but 24 pages of comments to review are a bit much to join the discussion. After reviewing the first page, I jumped in. Since context always comes up, as it did early on here, verse 19 is highly relevant to the church functioning under "the key of David".
19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
Revelation 3:
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,
These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”:
Only an active and living member of the church, anchored to that sure foundation has access to this authority.
Again, apologies if this has already been discussed. If not, why not? Keep digging in.

Isaiah 22:22 The key of the house of David
I will lay on his shoulder;
So he shall open, and no one shall shut;
And he shall shut, and no one shall open.

 

[Valletta]

Christ is the head of the church. The church is His Body, and also Christ, Peter alone is in no way solely the foundation of the church, for the Spirit elaborates on this teaching under discussion.

792 Christ "is the head of the body, the Church."225 He is the principle of creation and redemption. Raised to the Father's glory, "in everything he (is) preeminent,"226 especially in the Church, through whom he extends his reign over all things.

793 Christ unites us with his Passover: all his members must strive to resemble him, "until Christ be formed" in them.227 "For this reason we . . . are taken up into the mysteries of his life, . . . associated with his sufferings as the body with its head, suffering with him, that with him we may be glorified."228

794 Christ provides for our growth: to make us grow toward him, our head,229 he provides in his Body, the Church, the gifts and assistance by which we help one another along the way of salvation.

795 Christ and his Church thus together make up the "whole Christ" (Christus totus). the Church is one with Christ. the saints are acutely aware of this unity:

Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Do you understand and grasp, brethren, God's grace toward us? Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ. For if he is the head, we are the members; he and we together are the whole man.... the fullness of Christ then is the head and the members. But what does "head and members" mean? Christ and the Church.230

Our redeemer has shown himself to be one person with the holy Church whom he has taken to himself.231

Head and members form as it were one and the same mystical person.232

A reply of St. Joan of Arc to her judges sums up the faith of the holy doctors and the good sense of the believer: "About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they're just one thing, and we shouldn't complicate the matter."233

Part One Section Two I. The Creeds Chapter Three I Believe In The Holy Spirit Article 9 I Believe In The Holy Catholic Church Paragraph 2. The Church - People Of God, Body Of Christ, Temple Of The Holy Spirit

www.vatican.va

 

[JulieB67]

19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Several of us have brought this up, yes but it's always good to reiterate this fact.

 

[WilliamC]

Incorrect,

Opinion.

the Church was founded by Jesus Christ and through His apostles, to shun the Church and the fellowship of others,, in effect dispising the means of Grace, His Word, and the Sacraments.

The church? Ecclesia simply means many hands..it it not a building. Where two or three are gathered IS the church. It could be at someone's home, or a brush arbor by the side of the road. Sure, we are told not to forsake assembling of ourselves, but we can assemble and fellowship around a campfire if we want.
Where in the Scriptures does it say the church has the means of dispensing grace?
Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say this. We don't need some man in silky garb to state that we need him to bring our prayers up to heaven and forgive us of our sins...that's a God prerogative that has been usurped. Its blasphemy...and God warned about it.( Rev. 13:6,7 "And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blasphemy his name (God on earth) and his tabernacle (by saying that we don't need to petition Jesus who is interceding in the tabernacle in heaven,Rom.8:26,27,34 but it can all be done down here on the earth through men.Dan. 8:11.) and them that dwell in heaven(We can grant sainthood, not just God). And it was given to him to make war with the saints (The Dark Ages speaks for itself, the deaths the RCC has on its shoulders)
As far as binding and loosing, or at least the RCCs interpretation of it...as to forgive or not to forgive sins, as God's prerogatives go.. Jesus speaks clearly in Mt. 18:18-35 when He shows that they had NO such authority as He does. Peter asked how many times does he forgive a brother who sins against him..7 times? Jesus told him 70x7. But Jesus goes on to make clear that we are to forgive a brother that sins against us ALWAYS when He says "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses". God is the one in heaven who forgives sins overall. We are simply to forgive a person who does us wrong..this is love. Binding and loosing simply means that the disciples had the knowledge now to teach the truth about Jesus and the plan of salvation. If they held it back, any truth of the matter, they bound the person in sin by not speaking all truth, about the means of salvation through Jesus. Or, they could loose an individual by telling them they now had hope in Jesus and His plan.
Or dispensing the Word?
As i recall...it was the RCC that tried to wipe out possession of Scriptures for centuries during the dark era. Christians had the Word for many centuries but the so called church did not like anyone thinking for themselves...no control that way. Means of His Word...yeah right. They destroyed many books ,particularly the Scriptures.

Excluding one's self from the fellowship of others is self imposed excommunication.

Not in the design of God's church. The Scriptures never say anything about excommunication because of excluding oneself from fellowship. This is RCC man made. Sorry. Blessings!

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I'm talking about going to a physical church once a week.

Heb 10:25-27 Not forsaking our assembly, as some are accustomed: but comforting one anther, and so much the more as you see the day approaching. (26) For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins: (27) But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.

 

[Minister Monardo]

792 Christ "is the head of the body, the Church."225 He is the principle of creation and redemption. Raised to the Father's glory, "in everything he (is) preeminent,"226 especially in the Church, through whom he extends his reign over all things.

793 Christ unites us with his Passover: all his members must strive to resemble him, "until Christ be formed" in them.227 "For this reason we . . . are taken up into the mysteries of his life, . . . associated with his sufferings as the body with its head, suffering with him, that with him we may be glorified."228

794 Christ provides for our growth: to make us grow toward him, our head,229 he provides in his Body, the Church, the gifts and assistance by which we help one another along the way of salvation.

795 Christ and his Church thus together make up the "whole Christ" (Christus totus). the Church is one with Christ. the saints are acutely aware of this unity:

Let us rejoice then and give thanks that we have become not only Christians, but Christ himself. Do you understand and grasp, brethren, God's grace toward us? Marvel and rejoice: we have become Christ. For if he is the head, we are the members; he and we together are the whole man.... the fullness of Christ then is the head and the members. But what does "head and members" mean? Christ and the Church.230

Our redeemer has shown himself to be one person with the holy Church whom he has taken to himself.231

Head and members form as it were one and the same mystical person.232

A reply of St. Joan of Arc to her judges sums up the faith of the holy doctors and the good sense of the believer: "About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they're just one thing, and we shouldn't complicate the matter."233

Part One Section Two I. The Creeds Chapter Three I Believe In The Holy Spirit Article 9 I Believe In The Holy Catholic Church Paragraph 2. The Church - People Of God, Body Of Christ, Temple Of The Holy Spirit

www.vatican.va

What does this have to do with the key of David?

 

[Valletta]

Of course we do. But we shouldn't need a church to keep us vigilant. If you do than you're not very grounded to begin with. The Holy Spirit is what continues to work and ground us, mature us and we can only do that by staying true to his Word, not straying from it. I suppose some might need help to stay grounded, motivated. I myself am not a one day a week Christian. I'm a Christian 24/7. It's a reality, not a religion.
Yes, fellowship and encouragement and assembling together is a good thing. But they're not necessities for salvation.

If you feel like you need your church to do that for you, so be it. I grew up in a church that taught false doctrines. Again, I'm not saying all are bad but they need to be tested to see if they hold to the traditions that were brought forth in the Word.

We have to decide for ourselves and work out our own salvation as Paul states. We have to study to show ourselves approved and so on. We're on our own personal journey after all. And we have to face God ourselves at Judgement. We can't drag our church with us and blame them if things go badly.

For many it is the means by which we receive Jesus in the Holy Eucharist, to be deeply involved in a personal relationship with Jesus:

John 6:53-56 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. RSVCE

 

[WilliamC]

Heb 10:25-27 Not forsaking our assembly, as some are accustomed: but comforting one anther, and so much the more as you see the day approaching. (26) For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins: (27) But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.

As Julie stated: "Im talking about going to a physical church each week". (As in a building)
Hebrews 10:25-27,nowhere mentions a physical building in the text.
Now, Hebrews 3:6...says that WE are the house of Christ. (And we can assemble wherever we want.."where two or three are gathered".)

 

[Minister Monardo]

Opinion.

The church? Ecclesia simply means many hands..it it not a building. Where two or three are gathered IS the church. It could be at someone's home, or a brush arbor by the side of the road. Sure, we are told not to forsake assembling of ourselves, but we can assemble and fellowship around a campfire if we want.
Where in the Scriptures does it say the church has the means of dispensing grace?
Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say this. We don't need some man in silky garb to state that we need him to bring our prayers up to heaven and forgive us of our sins...that's a God prerogative that has been usurped. Its blasphemy...and God warned about it.( Rev. 13:6,7 "And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blasphemy his name (God on earth) and his tabernacle (by saying that we don't need to petition Jesus who is interceding in the tabernacle in heaven,Rom.8:26,27,34 but it can all be done down here on the earth through men.Dan. 8:11.) and them that dwell in heaven(We can grant sainthood, not just God). And it was given to him to make war with the saints (The Dark Ages speaks for itself, the deaths the RCC has on its shoulders)
As far as binding and loosing, or at least the RCCs interpretation of it...as to forgive or not to forgive sins, as God's prerogatives go.. Jesus speaks clearly in Mt. 18:18-35 when He shows that they had NO such authority as He does. Peter asked how many times does he forgive a brother who sins against him..7 times? Jesus told him 70x7. But Jesus goes on to make clear that we are to forgive a brother that sins against us ALWAYS when He says "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses". God is the one in heaven who forgives sins overall. We are simply to forgive a person who does us wrong..this is love. Binding and loosing simply means that the disciples had the knowledge now to teach the truth about Jesus and the plan of salvation. If they held it back, any truth of the matter, they bound the person in sin by not speaking all truth, about the means of salvation through Jesus. Or, they could loose an individual by telling them they now had hope in Jesus and His plan.
Or dispensing the Word?
As i recall...it was the RCC that tried to wipe out possession of Scriptures for centuries during the dark era. Christians had the Word for many centuries but the so called church did not like anyone thinking for themselves...no control that way. Means of His Word...yeah right. They destroyed many books ,particularly the Scriptures.




Not in the design of God's church. The Scriptures never say anything about excommunication because of excluding oneself from fellowship. This is RCC man made. Sorry. Blessings!

The Church, i.e. the members, dispense grace firstly by preaching the Gospel of Grace. Salvation is but a part of "the manifold grace of God". Christian charity also dispenses grace, as Paul encouraged the Gentiles to participate in the giving for the saints in Judea. 2 Co 8:7

 

[WilliamC]

The Church, i.e. the members, dispense grace firstly by preaching the Gospel of Grace.

The gospel message through the disciples and apostle teaches about the only One who can and does dispense grace as He pleases... Jesus Christ. Jn.1:17,29
Preaching and teaching is the delivery mode for the hearer..it is their decision to accept the Word.. gospel.. via the impressing of the Holy Spirit, and the invitation that God offers of believing in Him. Jn. 3:15,16,18

Salvation is but a part of "the manifold grace of God".

It is the pinnacle. Christ said His grace is sufficient. You make it sound like its not enough? We are saved by grace through faith (belief) not of anything we can do. it is a gift from God. Eph. 2:8. Who has saved us and called with a holy calling not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and GRACE, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. IITim. 1:9
Im not sure you may know what true grace is? It is unmerited favor from God... And cannot be dispensed by any man.

Christian charity also dispenses grace, as Paul encouraged the Gentiles to participate in the giving for the saints in Judea. 2 Co 8:7

I believe that is not the grace Jesus alone dispenses... that is the understanding and putting into action, love for one another, and the furtherance of the mission. Blessings!

 

[Minister Monardo]

I believe that is not the grace Jesus alone dispenses... that is the understanding and putting into action, love for one another, and the furtherance of the mission. Blessings!

The grace that Jesus dispenses is the Grace of God.
2 Corinthians 8:1 Moreover, brethren, we make known to you the grace of God
bestowed on the churches of Macedonia.

The topic of 2 Co 8 is clearly stated, if you need to read more, I leave that to you.
As to the verse I cited in my post:
7 Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge,
and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.

I also made reference to "the manifold grace of God", which you dismissed without
seeing the relevance, and connection to the whole.
1 Peter 4:
10 As each one has received a gift, minister it to one another,
as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
11 If anyone speaks, let him speak as the oracles of God. If anyone ministers,
let him do it as with the ability which God supplies, that in all things God may be
glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belong the glory and the dominion
forever and ever. Amen.

It can be clearly and easily seen that Peter speaks of grace in terms of gifts of the Spirit,
even as Paul does in 2 Corinthians 8, and it is only the damage done by academics and
theologians who take salvation and isolate from the rest of the Gospel that anyone would
think that Ephesians 2:8 can summarize the Gospel of our salvation.

Ephesians 2:
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God
prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

And what might those good works be? SEE ABOVE FOR EXAMPLES

Im not sure you may know what true grace is? It is unmerited favor from God... And cannot be dispensed by any man.

And there it is, the classic seminarian textbook definition of grace! Here is what I know.
2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you,
always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work.

Here is my definition of grace from the scriptures: the all sufficiency of God for every
good work that he has ordained that we should walk therein.
The idea that you can separate salvation from stewardship, obedience, and the
work of the Spirit done in and through us is a mockery of the apostolic doctrine.

Christ said His grace is sufficient. You make it sound like its not enough?

First, when you quote "my grace is sufficient", you are way out of context,
as the Lord was responding to Paul's request to have the thorn of Satan
removed from him. The topic definitely was not salvation.
But you probably knew that... how convenient.

But you don't think I know what grace is?
If you do not think that the grace of God cannot be dispensed by man,
than you do not understand the meaning of stewardship, and probably
have none.
As you lack in God's sufficiency you abound in your own deficiency.
So let's take a look at a verse that you cited:

The gospel message through the disciples and apostle teaches about the only One who can and does dispense grace as He pleases... Jesus Christ. Jn.1:17,29

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Even as you quote this verse to answer against your own assertion "you make it sound like it is not enough".
Grace without truth is where we get these doctrines that neglect the full counsel of God.
Acts 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God.

Even as grace without purpose is easily led astray.
2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Now as to your declaration that salvation is the pinnacle of God's grace, you would do well to teach your disciples that the grace that brings salvation is not the pinnacle at the beginning of their walk, but at the end.

1 Peter 1:
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials,
7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire,
may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,
8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy
inexpressible and full of glory,
9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

Matthew 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Philippians 2:
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only,
but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

One should never think that the grace that brought about reconciliation with the Father is sufficient
to take you to the finish of what He has ordained for you.

2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

2 John 8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for,
but that we may receive a full reward.

Hebrews 12:
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness
springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

 

[WilliamC]

For many it is the means by which we receive Jesus in the Holy Eucharist, to be deeply involved in a personal relationship with Jesus:

You dont need crackers and grape juice for that. You receive Jesus when your willing to hear the real truth...the word, believe what your hear about Him, and accept Him as your Savior.
Its easy. "In whom ye also trusted (In Christ vs. 12) after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest (arabbon= down payment) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory". Eph. 1:13,14
Friend, that is as close and personal as it gets.

John 6:53-56 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. RSVCE

That is a metaphor. Its not really flesh and blood. They are not life. Jesus also said in Jn.6:63 "It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that i speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life".
Jesus also said in Jn. 6:40 "And this is the will of Him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up at the last day". This verse says believes on Him, which is different from the verse above.
Friend,
we reconcile Scripture, and be able to see that it all boils down to belief in Jesus...what He did on the cross for us..and what He is doing in heaven for us now, mediating and reconciling us into His kingdom in heaven. Blessings

 

[Minister Monardo]

That is a metaphor. Its not really flesh and blood.

Then what is the metaphor?
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him."
If it is a requirement for abiding in Him, it must be important.
If as Paul teaches in 1 Co 11, breaking bread and partaking of the Cup
of Salvation is a necessity for the fellowship of the saints at the Lord's
table, then "eat my flesh and drink my blood" must demand the fellowship
of the Spirit in the breaking of bread from house to house, as we find in
the first century church in Acts.

Philippians 2:
1 Therefore if there is any consolation in Christ,
if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit,
if any affection and mercy,
2 fulfill my joy by being like-minded, having the same love,
being of one accord, of one mind.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I'm talking about going to a physical church once a week. The real Church itself is the many membered body/community/founded by Christ that upholds the traditions that were brought forth. And they can meet any time and anywhere. I would never shun them and I don't. And I generally love people regardless. But while fellowship is a good thing it is not a necessary for one's salvation. Some don't even have the means or like minded people that they consider part of that real Church to assemble together. Again, God is the heart knower.



The means of grace comes by our faith and belief in Christ, not going to a physical building once a week- So, no I don't not despise the means of Grace, I love it and am thankful for it.

Romans 5:1 "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:"

Romans 5:2 "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God."


Hebrews 4:16 "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."

It's God's grace that teaches us-

Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,"

Titus 2:12 "Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

If one has come to true repentance, that true change of mind and heart then God's grace/Holy Spirit will continue to teach them these things. Of course all fall short and always will until the end but the change of heart is there and we know we have an advocate -Christ when we do. And if some can't assemble at times with part of the real Church because of whatever means, he knows.

Are you stating God's grace can't teach us these things outside of a physical church? It continues to teach me just as verse 2:12 states.


Again, that can happen anywhere and anytime. Even just two people.

Hebrews 10:24 "And let us consider on another to provoke unto love and to good works:"

Hebrews 10:25 "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."

I also take part in these.

But again, it's not necessary for one's salvation It's just the nature of a true Christian wanting to have fellowship with like minded people -wanting to encourage and exhort one another. Especially in these times more than ever.

We have to test the physical churches, if they teach anything other than the traditions that were brought forth, I do not consider them part of that real Church. Far from it. Christ states by their fruits we shall know them. And that's what I always consider when thinking about certain churches. I left my own because of false doctrines.

You stated this


And I agree, but I want to be part of the few that find this

Matthew 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

I will put my salvation in no other hands but Christ. And it's by him that I will find grace that leads me right to the Father's throne.

When I state that we have to work out our own salvation. I'm just stating Paul's words because it's not the church that saves but it's God that works within us. He stated that they were to assert themselves even more in his absence because it's God that works within us. Paul laid that foundation but it is up to us what to do with it.

I am talking about a "physical meeting space" and while being with like minded people would be nice, what about those who are stumbling or spirtually confused and even lost; all "Churches" have them. Should we not try to edify, lift up, strengthen and encourage those who are weak?

What you describe sounds like a very narcissistic and selfish faith.

 

[Valletta]

You dont need crackers and grape juice for that. You receive Jesus when your willing to hear the real truth...the word, believe what your hear about Him, and accept Him as your Savior.
Its easy. "In whom ye also trusted (In Christ vs. 12) after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest (arabbon= down payment) of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory". Eph. 1:13,14
Friend, that is as close and personal as it gets.

That is a metaphor. Its not really flesh and blood. They are not life. Jesus also said in Jn.6:63 "It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that i speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life".
Jesus also said in Jn. 6:40 "And this is the will of Him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up at the last day". This verse says believes on Him, which is different from the verse above.
Friend,
we reconcile Scripture, and be able to see that it all boils down to belief in Jesus...what He did on the cross for us..and what He is doing in heaven for us now, mediating and reconciling us into His kingdom in heaven. Blessings

"The flesh" means things of the flesh, NOT the Body of Jesus. When Jesus faced questioning such as yours He used a different word for "eat," making it clear they were to eat His Body. Study the Greek text. That word means to "masticate" or to "gnaw." Realize that the three leaders of the reformation call came up with new and different ideas of the Holy Eucharist and it got worse from there.