What IS MATT 16:18 REALLY TEACHING ?

[One God and Father of All]

The idea of course is the Catholic Church has full authority over scripture. Which ironically is founded upon a single verse of scripture (1 Timothy 3:15).

For any one person or group of persons to claim full authority over scripture is a laugh. The full authority over scripture is scripture itself.

 

[Valletta]

One thing is for sure. Popes are supposed to be successors of Peter, but there are several who behaved in a way Peter never would have.

One pope even denied Our Lord three times!

 

[ozso]

One pope even denied Our Lord three times!

Oh well then, that excuses corrupt popes.

 

[RandyPNW]

I view the Catholic Church as a false religion. Any group that teaches false doctrine is a false religion. But it really doesn’t matter to me because I don’t belong to that religion. The Christian religion is formed by what is taught in both the O.T and new. It is not formed by the traditions of men as the RCC claims.

You may be right. Again, I'm not a Catholic basher anymore than Paul was a Jew basher. Nevertheless, Paul condemned the Jews for their intransigence even as he reached out to them as "God's chosen People" in the synagogues.

We should reach out to Catholics as those who need to "know God more fully," as even Apollos did in the book of Acts. It is possible to know God a little when we should know God a lot. That is how I myself was raised in the Lutheran Church.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Oh well then, that excuses corrupt popes.

What it does do is show that the demand for nothing but perfect popes is an entirely human and corrupt demand because not even the Lord Jesus himself achieved it.

 

[One God and Father of All]

You may be right. Again, I'm not a Catholic basher anymore than Paul was a Jew basher. Nevertheless, Paul condemned the Jews for their intransigence even as he reached out to them as "God's chosen People" in the synagogues.

We should reach out to Catholics as those who need to "know God more fully," as even Apollos did in the book of Acts. It is possible to know God a little when we should know God a lot. That is how I myself was raised in the Lutheran Church.

The Catholics deny that the Bible alone can inform someone in the way of salvation. I recently read an article on a Catholic website that says that the Bible does not teach “Bible alone” or “sola scriptura”. What do you make of the following:

14But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for [c]instruction in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The Catholics deny that the Bible alone can inform someone in the way of salvation.

That is incorrect.

I recently read an article on a Catholic website that says that the Bible does not teach “Bible alone” or “sola scriptura”.

That is correct. The bible never says that all doctrine and moral teaching is to be derived from the bible.

What do you make of the following:

14But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for [c]instruction in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

I think it teaches that the bible is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness which results in the man of God [being] complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. It doesn't teach that the bible is the sole source for infallible teaching on doctrine and morals.

 

[ozso]

What it does do is show that the demand for nothing but perfect popes is an entirely human and corrupt demand

The claim of the RCC is the Pope is supposed to be on the same level as St. Peter.

because not even the Lord Jesus himself achieved it.

Say what?!

 

[One God and Father of All]

That is incorrect.

That is correct. The bible never says that all doctrine and moral teaching is to be derived from the bible.

I think it teaches that the bible is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness which results in the man of God [being] complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. It doesn't teach that the bible is the sole source for infallible teaching on doctrine and morals.

That they deny Scripture, or that the Bible alone is sufficient, is correct. That‘s why they have what they call “sacred tradition”.
The gospel is the single most important teaching of the Bible. Without it there is no salvation, no faith and no kingdom of God. And the Bible covers it completely.
Therefore if one wishes to believe the gospel and benefit from what it offers, he need nothing more than to read the scriptures. “COMPLETE, THOROUGHLY EQUIPPED!

 

[ozso]

You may be right. Again, I'm not a Catholic basher anymore than Paul was a Jew basher. Nevertheless, Paul condemned the Jews for their intransigence even as he reached out to them as "God's chosen People" in the synagogues.

We should reach out to Catholics as those who need to "know God more fully," as even Apollos did in the book of Acts. It is possible to know God a little when we should know God a lot. That is how I myself was raised in the Lutheran Church.

I think the problem with Catholocism is there's too much superfluous stuff tacked onto it. It's not that it's not Christianity, it's that it's Christianity with distracting trappings.

 

[One God and Father of All]

I think the problem with Catholocism is there's too much superfluous stuff tacked onto it. It's not that it's not Christianity, it's that it's Christianity with distracting trappings.

I would wholeheartedly disagree. The Catholic Church has for its head a Pope. The Christian church has for its head Christ.
You can’t be called a Christian church if Christ is not the head. It’s that simple.

 

[ozso]

I would wholeheartedly disagree. The Catholic Church has for its head a Pope. The Christian church has for its head Christ.
You can’t be called a Christian church if Christ is not the head. It’s that simple.

The idea is the pope is the head bishop. Not unlike when Martin Luther was the head of the Lutheran church. Or even the senior pastor of a church. But like with some other things, the pope gets elevated too much, which does distract from Christ being the center of attention in my opinion. Also I don't think having a pope was a design of the early Church.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Say what?!

Well, Jesus chose Judas who betrayed him, and Peter who denied him, and the other 10 who ran away when he was arrested, and John who followed him keeping silence. It is not a stellar record of good choices if perfection is what is demanded and that is why the altogether human and altogether unreasonable demand for nothing but perfect popes is so corrupt and corrupting. That kind of thinking corrupts Protestant thinking and leads many Protestant apologists into serious doctrinal and moral error.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

That they deny Scripture, or that the Bible alone is sufficient, is correct.

Please go read Dei Verbum; I gave a link to you before. Dei verbum

 

[One God and Father of All]

Catholics don’t actually deny that Christ is the head of the church. What they deny is that Christ is the head of the church on earth. They claim that the Pope is the head of the church on earth. Therefore, while you are on earth the Pope is your head and not Christ.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Catholics don’t actually deny that Christ is the head of the church. What they deny is that Christ is the head of the church on earth. They claim that the Pope is the head of the church on earth. Therefore, while you are on earth the Pope is your head and not Christ.

That is incorrect.

 

[Bones49]

The early church was plagued by false teaching. Just read Paul’s letters. No sooner would he leave a church and false teachers would come in and try to undo all that he had done. That’s why his letters are vitally important. It was easy then, just as it is today, to persuade people by false teaching. That why the scripture is above all else.without relying on them for truth any false teaching would prevail.
Since there was false teaching coming out of the early church who can say that the Church of Rome did not or would not fall prey to false teaching. No one can say that.
So we must look to the scripture and the scripture alone for the truth else we risk being led by lies.
It would have been very easy for an early church to have formed and grow that held false doctrines That‘s why it’s a fallacy to say we rely on tradition for truth and go around claiming “it’s what the early church believed“ whether or not the scripture actually teaches it.

Actually I would argue that this is exactly why sola sciptura is a bad idea. Because it is so easy for someone to come along with a new false interpretation of what scripture says, and if people are swayed by that then we have a problem. But if we take into consideration church tradition, then we have a normative standard by which we can compare novel interpretations of the bible (of course we need to be able to discern what is orthodox within the church tradition, which in itself is a problem). When then leads us to bring into play reason, and also our experience, into the mix, so while scripture is the final and most important authority, we can also use tradition, experience and reason to guide our understanding of what scripture is, and is not saying.

For whatever we believe, Scripture must set forth that belief, but if we don't find that belief in tradition, we should then proceed very carefully.

 

[ozso]

Well, Jesus chose Judas who betrayed him, and Peter who denied him, and the other 10 who ran away when he was arrested, and John who followed him keeping silence. It is not a stellar record of good choices if perfection is what is demanded and that is why the altogether human and altogether unreasonable demand for nothing but perfect popes is so corrupt and corrupting. That kind of thinking corrupts Protestant thinking and leads many Protestant apologists into serious doctrinal and moral error.

God created Adam who disobeyed Him. God chose David (a man after God's own heart) as King and David committed adultery topped with murder. These are the kinds of arguments I usually hear from atheists. It's not that the Apostles were perfect. But they were not corrupt. They did not practice unrighteousness.

 

[ozso]

That is incorrect.

Saying "that is incorrect" in no way demonstrates that something is incorrect or explains why it's incorrect.

 

[ozso]

Catholics don’t actually deny that Christ is the head of the church. What they deny is that Christ is the head of the church on earth. They claim that the Pope is the head of the church on earth. Therefore, while you are on earth the Pope is your head and not Christ.

Yikes. Perhaps it's worse than I thought. I remember when John Paul II was shot, Catholics were saying it was "like shooting God".