What IS MATT 16:18 REALLY TEACHING ?

[RileyG]

So you fellowship with angels and souls in heaven? What do they say to you?

They pray for me. That's all.

We are getting off topic. You can start a new thread if you want.

 

[RileyG]

It's more a matter of Jesus and Paul instructing us in detail on everything about prayer and not saying anything about praying to anyone other than God.

Look at the early Church. Plenty of intercession and invocation of Saints in their writings.

Again, this is off topic.

 

[ozso]

Look at the early Church. Plenty of intercession and invocation of Saints in their writings.

I seriously doubt that since I've never seen such posted in numerous threads like this one.

Again, this is off topic.

This thread is basically about Biblical teaching vs Catholic Church teaching, so I'd say it's not too off topic.

 

[RileyG]

I seriously doubt that since I've never seen such posted in numerous threads like this one.

This thread is basically about Biblical teaching vs Catholic Church teaching, so I'd say it's not too off topic.

The Sub tuum praesidium.

"We Fly to your patronage O Holy Mother of God,
despise not our petitions in our necessities,
but deliver us always from all danger,
O Glorious and Blessed Virgin.
Amen"

250 AD.

 

[ozso]

They pray for me. That's all.

The only way I know people on earth pray for me is I either hear them doing so or they tell me they are. So how do you know that angels and souls in haven are praying for you? I just don't get how that works without hearing them speak.

 

[RileyG]

How do you know it was a belief in the church from the beginning? Where in scripture and or early church writing is it mentioned?

Luke 1:28. The Greek word kecharitomene.

 

[RileyG]

The only way I know people on earth pray for me is I either hear them doing so or they tell me they are. So how do you know that angels and souls in haven are praying for you? I just don't get how that works without hearing them speak.

I am sure there are plenty of living people praying for you that never told you. They are praying for us before the throne of God. I do not "hear" them, but I do not "hear" God either, but I know he listens to my prayers.

 

[ozso]

The Sub tuum praesidium.

"We Fly to your patronage O Holy Mother of God,
despise not our petitions in our necessities,
but deliver us always from all danger,
O Glorious and Blessed Virgin.
Amen"

250 AD.

Beneath Thy Protection (Ancient Greek: Ὑπὸ τὴν σὴν εὐσπλαγχνίαν; Latin: Sub Tuum Præsidium) is an ancient Christian hymn and prayer. It is one of the oldest known Marian prayers and among the most ancient preserved hymns to the Blessed Virgin Mary that is still in use. Papyrus 470, containing a substantial portion of the prayer, was dated initially to the 3rd or 4th century; however later scholars proposed much later datings, even as far as the 9th century.

Sub tuum praesidium - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[RileyG]

Beneath Thy Protection (Ancient Greek: Ὑπὸ τὴν σὴν εὐσπλαγχνίαν; Latin: Sub Tuum Præsidium) is an ancient Christian hymn and prayer. It is one of the oldest known Marian prayers and among the most ancient preserved hymns to the Blessed Virgin Mary that is still in use. Papyrus 470, containing a substantial portion of the prayer, was dated initially to the 3rd or 4th century; however later scholars proposed much later datings, even as far as the 9th century.

Sub tuum praesidium - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

An ancient prayer, regardless.

What about the tombs asking for the intercession of the early Christians died that go back to the first and second century? Is that made up? Or the prayers of the saints in revelation 8:4?

 

[The Liturgist]

How?

Well obviously, by preaching the Gospel and by administering the sacraments by which one actually becomes a Christian, baptism and Chrismation.

The acts of the faithful bring more faithful to God in synergy with the Holy Spirit. By cooperating with the Holy Spirit we spread the Gospel of Christ.

If people were brought to the faith only through divine action there would have been no point for our Lord to give the Apostles the Great Commission; he could have simply instructed them to wait for people to appear according to His divine summons.

 

[ozso]

Luke 1:28. The Greek word kecharitomene.

There's many instances in scripture of angels appearing to and speaking to people. Nothing though about people praying to angels and souls in heaven though.

 

[RileyG]

There's many instances in scripture of angels appearing to and speaking to people. Nothing though about people praying to angels and souls in heaven though.

What about the book of Tobit? Oops....that's not in the Protestant canon.

I'm not sure how that is related to my post?

Also see Revelation 8:3-4.

 

[The Liturgist]

Beneath Thy Protection (Ancient Greek: Ὑπὸ τὴν σὴν εὐσπλαγχνίαν; Latin: Sub Tuum Præsidium) is an ancient Christian hymn and prayer. It is one of the oldest known Marian prayers and among the most ancient preserved hymns to the Blessed Virgin Mary that is still in use. Papyrus 470, containing a substantial portion of the prayer, was dated initially to the 3rd or 4th century; however later scholars proposed much later datings, even as far as the 9th century.

Sub tuum praesidium - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The hymn in question agrees with Orthodox doctrine, and I would also note that the Orthodox do not accept the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, although we would not need to since our understanding of original sin is not that of St. Augustine of Hippo but rather of St. John Cassian.

Specifically the Immaculate Conception is based on the Augustinian idea that original sin is spread through concupiscience and thus all actions of sexual intercourse spread original disease, which requires an exception to be carved out for the Blessed Virgin Mary. The view of the Orthodox is simply that original sin is spread otherwise (we also refer to it as ancestral sin) and thus we do not require a separate doctrine to explain the sinlessness of the virgin Mary.

At any rate even if the hymn in question dated from the ninth century, which I strongly doubt, that would be irrelevant since the words it contains reflect the teachings of the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox, and the Oriental Orthodox in particular were pushed out of Eucharistic communion with Rome and the Eastern Orthodox by the writings of Pope Leo I and their endorsement at the Council of Chalcedon, insofar as they appeared to potentially contradict the teaching of St. Cyril of Alexandria and be a reversion to the Nestorian position (I would argue that Chalcedonianism is not Nestorian, but I understand why it alarmed the Oriental Orthodox and I regard the Oriental Orthodox as being the most stalwart defenders of the ancient faith).’

Since their doctrine agrees with the hymn in question, this means that the doctrine the hymn refers to is definitely ancient and apostolic, and furthermore it also means that an early dating for the hymn, for example, to the fourth or even the third century, is entirely possible and even likely.

I would say, since its a Latin hymn, it most likely originates around the year 400, since most of the particularly beautiful Latin hymns were composed following the introduction of antiphonal singing into the Church of Milan by St. Ambrose in 386 AD, or else originated in North Africa or in places in the Western Church other than Rome. Rome itself was not a hotbed for hymnography until the late fifth century when it began to catch up in this area. However, there are some very beautiful hymns in Latin from before that time.

There are also other Mariological hymns of greater antiquity.

 

[The Liturgist]

What about the book of Tobit? Oops....that's not in the Protestant canon.

I'm not sure how that is related to my post?

Also see Revelation 8:3-4.

Actually the Anglicans do read Tobit and it is a part of any complete copy of the King James Version. In addition most other liturgical Protestant churches are open to it. The complete rejection of the deuterocanon is something only insisted on, historically, by a small minority of Protestants. Indeed even John Calvin regarded Baruch as being protocanonical.

 

[ozso]

Well obviously, by preaching the Gospel and by administering the sacraments by which one actually becomes a Christian, baptism and Chrismation.

The acts of the faithful bring more faithful to God in synergy with the Holy Spirit. By cooperating with the Holy Spirit we spread the Gospel of Christ.

If people were brought to the faith only through divine action there would have been no point for our Lord to give the Apostles the Great Commission; he could have simply instructed them to wait for people to appear according to His divine summons.

So by what action other than divine or supernatural are people brought closer to God by angels and souls in heaven?

 

[ozso]

What about the book of Tobit? Oops....that's not in the Protestant canon.

I'd be interested in what Tobit says about it.

I'm not sure how that is related to my post?

You seemed to be comparing Gabriel's visit with Mary to praying to angels.

Also see Revelation 8:3-4.

Where does it say the prayers where to anyone other than God?

 

[RileyG]

Actually the Anglicans do read Tobit and it is a part of any complete copy of the King James Version. In addition most other liturgical Protestant churches are open to it. The complete rejection of the deuterocanon is something only insisted on, historically, by a small minority of Protestants. Indeed even John Calvin regarded Baruch as being protocanonical.

Yes! You're right. Thanks for the info.

 

[The Liturgist]

This thread is basically about Biblical teaching vs Catholic Church teaching, so I'd say it's not too off topic.

There really isn’t any substantial difference between the two in terms of Patristic theology. Specifically, any Catholic doctrine also adhered to by the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox and the Assyrian churches, many of which are also adhered to by traditional liturgical Protestants such as Anglicans and Lutherans, can be regarded as Biblical.

It is only the relatively small number of Roman Catholic doctrines which originated in the Scholastic era or are Modernistic, for example, the new position of the Catholic Church on homosexuality outlined in the disastrous “Fiducia Supplicans” which has caused such distress for my Traditional Catholic friends still reeling from the attempted suppression of the Traditional Latin Mass communities instituted by Pope Francis when he somehow revoked Summorum Pontificum issued by Pope Benedict XVI and Ecclesia Dei issued by Pope St. John Paul II, an action which I suspect is a violation of canon law, and issued the rather unpleasant Traditiones Custodes.

Actually of all of the encyclicals, bulls and other writings of Pope Francis, starting with Amoris Laetitia, I cannot find one of them that I agree with in any way, whereas I agree with most of what Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI did.

 

[RileyG]

I'd be interested in what Tobit says about it.

You seemed to be comparing Gabriel's visit with Mary to praying to angels.

Where does it say the prayers of the people where to anyone other than God?

#1. You can read it if you want. It's a short, great story.

#2. No, I was referring to the Virgin Mary to be without sin.

#3. They are praying for us in heaven.

 

[The Liturgist]

So by what action other than divine or supernatural are people brought closer to God by angels and souls in heaven?

Specifically, their intercession in various miracles and blessings, and also the prayers they make for us. For example, when we are baptized, we receive a guardian angel, who seeks to keep us in the faith and strengthen our faith, as well as helping to protect us temporally. This is in accordance with the economy of salvation instituted by God, which is inherently synergistic rather than monergistic.