What is it to be a True Believer?

timothyu · Dec 21, 2024

David Lamb said:
but neither are they "captives of organized deceit."

How many, as a result of the traditions they were born of, even realize Christianity abandoned the counter-culture of the Kingdom, the only Gospel Jesus said to teach, to re-join itself with the world of man over 1700 years ago and never repented of it since. That's pretty organized as the unwillingness to admit the sin it created is a result of not wanting to admit it has been going in the wrong direction all along and the blind have taught the blind to teach another truth ever since. So much for credibility on the part of institutionalized religion.

Aaron112 · Dec 21, 2024

Estimation: This post is a good example of "totally wrong", in fact, in content, in motive, in purpose, and in spirit.

Astrid said:
“Captives of organized deceit” includes all who think the flood story is literally true.

How wrong does something have to BE to
qualify for “ totally wrong” in your estimation?

Injeun · Dec 21, 2024

David Lamb said:
I agree, and so does my church and many other churches, that to attempt to counterfeit the divine is totally wrong. I still say that you are being too general. I'm not saying that any church or individual Christian is perfect, but neither are they "captives of organized deceit." As I wrote before, such thinking is a gross exaggeration, and something which you cannot possibly know, unless you have a personal knowledge of everybody in the world who claims to be a Christian, and every group in the world claiming to be a Christian church.

Gods house is a house of order. There is only one true God, Christ and gospel. So there can only be one true Church. Which of the tens of thousands of differing denominations in bible based religion is that one true Church? You can't name it and neither can they. It is called Christianity but it doesn't have a head or unition in Christ. Amos said that God does nothing but thru his prophets. (Amos 3:7) So where is the prophet at the head of Christianity? There isn't one. It is headless. So they say, well, Christ is our head and there is no more need for a prophet. But they aren't united in Christ either. So that blows that excuse away. Not to mention the fact that Jesus Christ himself said that others would come later in his name who would do more than he because his mission was finished and he had to return to his Father. (John 14:12) So Jesus isn't the final prophet in the ongoing work of God as Christians say, so as to seek refuge in their marketplace of counterfeiters. With God and the biblical testimony aside, that traditional Christianity is a giant hoax is self evident. It is disconnected from God, and is involved in trying to fabricate an image of the original, each going their own way, as one might do in life, but now even in religion, and scattered all the more.

Astrid · Dec 21, 2024

Aaron112 said:
Estimation: This post is a good example of "totally wrong", in fact, in content, in motive, in purpose, and in spirit.

Of course.

People are notoriously reluctant to admit they’ve been scammed.

The only one slower to admit it is the con man himself.

Happy dreams!

Aaron112 · Dec 21, 2024

You might con me, or other readers, but never be able to con God.

Astrid · Dec 21, 2024

Aaron112 said:
You might con me, or other readers, but never be able to con God.

Nope, I never would. I value my integrity.
I am not into self deception, nor misleading others

And your facile notions of matters about which youve
education sure don’t come from any god.

The bible btw cautions against taking the Lords name in
vain, which is exactly what you just did.

Just, you know, saying.

Aaron112 · Dec 21, 2024

fwiw, you're wrong.
Just sayin'....

Astrid · Dec 21, 2024

Aaron112 said:
fwiw, you're wrong.
Just sayin'....

Im not wrong about myself.
Integrity is well worth the investment.
Look into it some time.

Im sure not wrong about how scam victims hate to admit theyve
been scammed.

Nor about taking name in vain

Nor that you are pitifully uneducated regarding the science
you try to challenge.

Typical behaviour of the scam victim.

Just too much ego to be able to humble themselves
with any admission of any error.

David Lamb · Dec 23, 2024

Astrid said:
“Captives of organized deceit” includes all who think the flood story is literally true.

How wrong does something have to BE to
qualify for “ totally wrong” in your estimation?

But Christians who do believe that the bible teaches a literal worldwide flood would say the opposite. My post was answering Injeun's claim that all churches and individual Christians were “Captives of organized deceit,” not discussing the flood.

Astrid · Dec 23, 2024

David Lamb said:
But Christians who do believe that the bible teaches a literal worldwide flood would say the opposite. My post was answering Injeun's claim that all churches and individual Christians were “Captives of organized deceit,” not discussing the flood.

Those who say literal flood , are examples of those whose s intellect is
captive of deceit.
And few who are scammed have the capacity tto admit it.

Injeun · Dec 23, 2024

Astrid said:
Those who say literal flood , are examples of those whose s intellect is
captive of deceit.
And few who are scammed have the capacity tto admit it.

I am questioning the authenticity of that which is presented as Christianity as if it were united in Christ, when in fact it is divided into tens of thousands of different denominations according to the reckonings of men. So its tact is to take to the the scriptures as we have taken to life in the first instance and go our own way once again, this time supposedly in God, thus being twice lost while being hoodwinked into believing the justness of the way. They have turned salvation into a great gambling hall, where men put up their souls which then get plunked into one of the tens of thousands of custom made denominational buckets. They are told that they are one in Christ because that is the tradition. But in fact they are all separated into the belly of some conjured image. They think they are reborn as prisoners of Christ when clearly they are not. It's as if Christ and anti Christ were just a matter of perspective, and damned the truth.

With Christmas on the horizon, I will say that I know that God lives and that the biblical testimony of him is true. But what God might say and what we tell ourselves, are two different things. I pray we all to know the difference.

2PhiloVoid · Dec 23, 2024

Injeun said:
I am questioning the authenticity of that which is presented as Christianity as if it were united in Christ, when in fact it is divided into tens of thousands of different denominations according to the reckonings of men. So its tact is to take to the the scriptures as we have taken to life in the first instance and go our own way once again, this time supposedly in God, thus being twice lost while being hoodwinked into believing the justness of the way. They have turned salvation into a great gambling hall, where men put up their souls which then get plunked into one of the tens of thousands of custom made denominational buckets. They are told that they are one in Christ because that is the tradition. But in fact they are all separated into the belly of some conjured image. They think they are reborn as prisoners of Christ when clearly they are not. It's as if Christ and anti Christ were just a matter of perspective, and damned the truth.

With Christmas on the horizon, I will say that I know that God lives and that the biblical testimony of him is true. But what God tells us and what we tell ourselves are two different things. I pray we all to know the difference.

And precisely when and by whom in history do you think Christianity became "messed up"?

timothyu · Dec 23, 2024

2PhiloVoid said:
And precisely when and by whom in history do you think Christianity became "messed up"?

When rather than simply accepting truth of the Father as their church, as told by Jesus, they immediately built it around their own truths. The gentiles were rather self absorbed in their own traditions and unwilling to break free. The ultimate mess up was when the 'officials' of Christianity accepted the offer the Tempter made Jesus which Jesus rejected, and rejected the Kingdom and its ways to to re-join the world of man we had previously made in our own image.

2PhiloVoid · Dec 23, 2024

timothyu said:
When rather than simply accepting truth of the Father as their church, as told by Jesus, they immediately built it around their own truths. The gentiles were rather self absorbed in their own traditions and unwilling to break free. The ultimate mess up was when the 'officials' of Christianity accepted the offer the Tempter made Jesus which Jesus rejected, and rejected the Kingdom and its ways to to re-join the world of man we had previously made in our own image.

Timothyu, keep in mind that the person above whom I was asking is a Mormon. This is why I specifically posed this question to him.

Fortunately, I'm already well educated about most of the overall historical contentions within Church History and the Development of Christian Doctrine. So, I'm already aware of where many of the varieties of interpretation in the world at large have come about.

It's a shame that his movement later influenced, even if on some lesser scale, sympathies in China for Communist ideology.

timothyu · Dec 23, 2024

2PhiloVoid said:
Timothyu, keep in mind that the person above whom I was asking is a Mormon. This is why I specifically posed this question to him.

Fortunately, I'm already well educated about most of the overall historical contentions within Church History and the Development of Christian Doctrine. So, I'm already aware of where many of the varieties of interpretation in the world at large have come about.

It's a shame that his movement later influenced, even if on some lesser scale, sympathies in China for Communist ideology.

All because man likes to make God over in our own image instead of letting go to remake ourselves over in His. We have tens of thousands of human governments, none of which focus on His as a result of the rebellion where officials whored Christianity to the Empire. There has never been repentance to initiate getting back on track.

2PhiloVoid · Dec 23, 2024

timothyu said:
All because man likes to make God over in our own image instead of letting go to remake ourselves over in His. We have tens of thousands of human governments, none of which focus on His as a result of the rebellion where officials whored Christianity to the Empire. There has never been repentance to initiate getting back on track.

I don't think we can make a blanket statement about Catholic (or Orthodox) brethren any more than we can about Protestant brethren. While on Copernican terms I can disagree with and criticize some of the ways in which Catholics have developed their own interpretations on Christian doctrine, we need to be careful that when we criticize we don't also fall into the same errors that those like Alexander Hislop have.

(E.G. The Two Babylons - Wikipedia)

I'm more content to tentatively see the Roman Catholic Church as historical expressions of the 4th and 5th Churches in the book of Revelation. That's bad enough, but it leaves the door wide open to seeing fellow Christians who happen to be Roman Catholic as spiritually legitimate brethren, even if and when I may disagree with them on a few things.

timothyu · Dec 23, 2024

2PhiloVoid said:
I don't think we can make a blanket statement about Catholic (or Orthodox) brethren any more than we can about Protestant brethren.

I'm not. I could care less about any denomination. I'm saying humans just don't get the Kingdom and how it runs contrary to the ways of man, not in accordance with them..

Injeun · Dec 24, 2024

2PhiloVoid said:
And precisely when and by whom in history do you think Christianity became "messed up"?

Well when the church allies with powerful governments and proceeds to conquer the nations of the earth in Gods name, it is clear evidence of apostasy. Isaiah said that "all we have gone astray, each to his own way." So I can no more say exactly when the Church went astray than when I or any man has gone astray. But I'm confident that it is early in our lives in the smarmy world into which we are born. It is self evident that that which parades a Christianity is not united in Christ. So it is headless. And without Christ as its head, neither has it a foundation.

2PhiloVoid · Dec 25, 2024

Injeun said:
Well when the church allies with powerful governments and proceeds to conquer the nations of the earth in Gods name, it is clear evidence of apostasy. Isaiah said that "all we have gone astray, each to his own way." So I can no more say exactly when the Church went astray than when I or any man has gone astray. But I'm confident that it is early in our lives in the smarmy world into which we are born. It is self evident that that which parades a Christianity is not united in Christ. So it is headless. And without Christ as its head, neither has it a foundation.

So, in your view, what are all of the things that contribute to apostasy? Is there a list on these things somewhere we can all access?

Injeun · Dec 26, 2024

2PhiloVoid said:
So, in your view, what are all of the things that contribute to apostasy? Is there a list on these things somewhere we can all access?

What difference does it make. Fake is fake, and it can't be improved as far as being authentic. Clearly the apostasy was apparent at least 1800 years ago. Today the religion is comprised of tens of thousands of differing denominations, with no two exactly alike in interpretation and understanding of the same biblical or scriptural testimony. It's a marketplace of counterfeiters. They are strangers to God and truth. It's more comfortable for them this way. I'm not trying to be a fault finding hard case. But should I entrust my eternal soul to such a fraud as what stands before me, offering salvation. If Gods house is one of order, where there is no variableness or shadow of turning. Then what is this creature that presents itself as Christianity when there is no continuity in it. There is no one Christ or head to it. It is tens of thousands of different heads, all jabbering different things. It's delusional. So it is safer for its captives to abide in the comfort ones own denomination for the cause of peace, than to consider the madness of the whole.

What is it to be a True Believer?

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