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What is it to be a True Believer?

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timothyu

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So bigotry is a requirement of Christianity?
If bigotry is intolerance to beliefs opposed to them then what is Christian intolerance to the self serving ways of man and vice versa? Besides how is it any different than calling heretic? See post #50 Jesus pointed out that mankind was predominantly backwards to the Ways of God and His Kingdom. Did they not kill Him for it? Yet He also said to not rebel against them but forgive these for they know not what they do. Forgive but no longer participating in that backwards thinking, repenting (changing ourselves) and remaining intolerant to our old ways.
 
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Astrid

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If bigotry is intolerance to beliefs opposed to them then what is Christian intolerance to the self serving ways of man and vice versa? Besides how is it any different than calling heretic? See post #50 Jesus pointed out that mankind was predominantly backwards to the Ways of God and His Kingdom. Did they not kill Him for it? Yet He also said to not rebel against them but forgive these for they know not what they do. Forgive but no longer participating in that backwards thinking, repenting (changing ourselves) and remaining intolerant to our old ways.
I’m not following the difference between
bigotry-and perhaps disdain, all the things
the bible says against atheists, intolerance,
etc, and, simple hatred.

All that seems to me antithetical to the
Christianity of peace and good will to all.

Which is an example of why I posted the o.p.

I find it all very confusing.
 
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Astrid

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Which I why I said we are to be forgiving of common earth bound man for they know not (hopefully yet) of what they do


Remember we have our own- much deeper-
traditions .and wisdom.

Christianity is an alien and rather
strange minority religion here.

Id like to understand yours but such
contradictory statements are not helping.
 
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Injeun

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In Christianity, it means anyone who is a real believer in the Gopsel (good news) message of or about Jesus Christ.

It's basic message entails Jesus being born of a virgin, and dying so you could be forgiven of your sins, and that he came in the flesh, and that he was resurrected from the dead sometime after his death or dying so that you could be forgiven of your sins.

There are probably just a few more things you need to believe in beyond that, etc, but that's the basic message of Christianity that in Christianity distinguishes a true believer, from a non-true believer, etc.

It all centers around the message of or about Jesus, etc, or as Paul said "Jesus Christ and him crucified", etc. That's how you can tell a true believer, from a non-true believer, etc. Well, in Christianity anyway, etc.

Take Care.
In Christianity, a true believer might be one who believes Peter's statement that Jesus is the Messiah, rather than to know for ones own self of the truth, and have fellowship with Peter in Christ. They hope to be sneaked into heaven on borrowed oil. And so in all, it is to believe in the biblical testimony rather than to know the God of whom it speaks or to whom it points. But what do they actually know beyond what is written? They have crafted from the biblical testimony what a Christian ought to be. And lo and behold it is like unto themselves. They have appointed themselves Gods representatives, keepers of the gate. But there is no God there beside them. So they are keepers of nothing. In modern Christianity, that is a true believer. So if the bible is a record of what was. Then modern Christianity is a staged reenactment, no different than a Hollywood movie, with actors reading from scripts, who've come to believe they are actually Christians whom they pretend to be. What do they care what God thinks or says? They have seized his place and made themselves God. They have elected themselves to Gods service as if to dispossess God of his free agency to choose his own servants. Yet they claim to love and honor God. Is it to love and honor God by bullying him. They say that the bible is the end of Gods work, and that he can say and do no more. It is to them now to advance his gospel. In this they have in effect silenced God and bound him with ropes. Again is this how one honors and loves ones God? Were God to come speaking and doing more, they would reject him. What then is God to do but to restore his true Church and authority elsewhere, by another avenue, seeing that men have corrupted his first Church.
 
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Astrid

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In Christianity, a true believer might be one who believes Peter's statement that Jesus is the Messiah, rather than to know for ones own self of the truth, and have fellowship with Peter in Christ. They hope to be sneaked into heaven on borrowed oil. And so in all, it is to believe in the biblical testimony rather than to know the God of whom it speaks or to whom it points. But what do they actually know beyond what is written? They have crafted from the biblical testimony what a Christian ought to be. And lo and behold it is like unto themselves. They have appointed themselves Gods representatives, keepers of the gate. But there is no God there beside them. So they are keepers of nothing. In modern Christianity, that is a true believer. So if the bible is a record of what was. Then modern Christianity is a staged reenactment, no different than a Hollywood movie, with actors reading from scripts, who've come to believe they are actually Christians whom they pretend to be. What do they care what God thinks or says? They have seized his place and made themselves God. They have elected themselves to Gods service as if to dispossess God of his free agency to choose his own servants. Yet they claim to love and honor God. Is it to love and honor God by bullying him. They say that the bible is the end of Gods work, and that he can say and do no more. It is to them now to advance his gospel. In this they have in effect silenced God and bound him with ropes. Again is this how one honors and loves ones God? Were God to come speaking and doing more, they would reject him. What then is God to do but to restore his true Church and authority elsewhere, by another avenue, seeing that men have corrupted his first Church.
Nothing but belief and fellowship?
 
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JonasDaniels

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Nothing but belief and fellowship?
If I have understood you correctly, you are Chinese, is that correct?
If so, may I recommend the writings of a man named Watchman Nee.
For the sake of our discussion here, Nee was a "true believer" (though as others have stated, this is not biblical terminology per say, but colloquial, and difficult to define). Many Christians have a problem with Nee for a host of doctrinal issues. I do not, because as Christ Himself implied in the following text, when He returns, it will be faith (or this "true belief" that you are asking about) that He Himself will be seeking within the hearts of mankind, rather than testing their understanding or adherence to, doctrines (teachings) of men.

The Parable of the Persistent Widow​

18 And he told them a parable to the effect that they ought always to pray and not lose heart. 2 He said, “In a certain city there was a judge who neither feared God nor respected man. 3 And there was a widow in that city who kept coming to him and saying, ‘Give me justice against my adversary.’ 4 For a while he refused, but afterward he said to himself, ‘Though I neither fear God nor respect man, 5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will give her justice, so that she will not beat me down by her continual coming.’” 6 And the Lord said, “Hear what the unrighteous judge says. 7 And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them? 8 I tell you, he will give justice to them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?”


Watchman Nee had this faith abundantly. He spent much of the last twenty or so years of his life in a Chinese prison for his faith, and if I am correct, died in that prison. He wrote many books, and those closest to him published a number of his writings posthumously. One of my favorite works of his was entitled; Christ, the Sum of all Spiritual Things. This may be illegal to possess in your home country, but if you dare, I would suggest you find a copy. Its a great introduction to the faith of a man who gave his all for his Lord and Savior, and a wonderful introduction to the Savior for which he gave his all. I love brother Nee for many of the reasons that others of our faith do not, he wrote from a distinctly Eastern and somewhat mystical perspective.
I hope this was helpful. And may Father God richly bless you in your sincere pursuit of truth.
For us Christians, The Truth is not a concept, but a Person.
Shalom Shalom
 
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Astrid

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If I have understood you correctly, you are Chinese, is that correct?
If so, may I recommend the writings of a man named Watchman Nee.
For the sake of our discussion here, Nee was a "true believer" (though as others have stated, this is not biblical terminology per say, but colloquial, and difficult to define). Many Christians have a problem with Nee for a host of doctrinal issues. I do not, because as Christ Himself implied in the following text, when He returns, it will be faith (or this "true belief" that you are asking about) that He Himself will be seeking within the hearts of mankind, rather than testing their understanding or adherence to, doctrines (teachings) of men.

The Parable of the Persistent Widow​

18 And he told them a parable to the effect that they ought always to pray and not lose heart. 2 He said, “In a certain city there was a judge who neither feared God nor respected man. 3 And there was a widow in that city who kept coming to him and saying, ‘Give me justice against my adversary.’ 4 For a while he refused, but afterward he said to himself, ‘Though I neither fear God nor respect man, 5 yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will give her justice, so that she will not beat me down by her continual coming.’” 6 And the Lord said, “Hear what the unrighteous judge says. 7 And will not God give justice to his elect, who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long over them? 8 I tell you, he will give justice to them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?”


Watchman Nee had this faith abundantly. He spent much of the last twenty or so years of his life in a Chinese prison for his faith, and if I am correct, died in that prison. He wrote many books, and those closest to him published a number of his writings posthumously. One of my favorite works of his was entitled; Christ, the Sum of all Spiritual Things. This may be illegal to possess in your home country, but if you dare, I would suggest you find a copy. Its a great introduction to the faith of a man who gave his all for his Lord and Savior, and a wonderful introduction to the Savior for which he gave his all. I love brother Nee for many of the reasons that others of our faith do not, he wrote from a distinctly Eastern and somewhat mystical perspective.
I hope this was helpful. And may Father God richly bless you in your sincere pursuit of truth.
For us Christians, The Truth is not a concept, but a Person.
Shalom Shalom
Chinese, yes, Hong Kong.

its kind of late here, so briefly-

I have read the entire Bible, and lived in NYC for five years.

Christianity remains a strange exotic religion,
with no connection to our culture, except that un
general the ethics and morality (NT) is quite similar,
tho we teach it st home, not at a church.

If you wished to understand my pov, there is that.

Also that Christianity is the religion of the ” gwe lo”
barbarian ( sorry!) invaders Also a major factor in our
19th century civil war that brought destruction and death
50 times that of yours.

Weve had so much of war, invasion, revolution
and chaos that we are quite “ allergic” to causes of yet more.

Hence Christianity and Islam are not welcome.

Regarding that book…

I got myself in jail for protesting…I was beaten and more.
I didnt like it.
I am trying to be a good girl here (CF)
and here in HK tho my record in both
reflects a rebellious or independent nature.

I talked to a Jesuit priest here several times.
Quite wise and interesting.

I do see wisdom and nobility in Christianity.

This thread, I started it as i am still wanting to understand.

So far my impression of the answer is
” lo here”, and, “ lo there”.

As for the no doubt good and gentle man who
died in prison, that is quite sad.

A question tho- I read about the martyrs, so I get
that.

But is it not better to live and teach? Ghandi could
have easily sacrificed his life, but of what use is that?

Anyway, thanks, it’s so late.
All for now.
 
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Injeun

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Nothing but belief and fellowship?
Believing Peter's testimony isn't fellowship with Peter in Christ. Peter is in Christ. Believing his testimony is to say that all is well with Peter. One should know for ones own self to be with him. Otherwise it is like the five foolish virgins who had no oil of their own, and had to borrow it. So they arrived late to the ceremony. The doors were shut, and the groom said I know you not. The foundation on which Jesus told Peter he would build his Church is that of personal revelation, being known by God. If belief isn't unto knowing God by his knowing of us, then it is a journey cut short. We are to seek and find, not merely believe and leave it at that.
 
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JonasDaniels

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Chinese, yes, Hong Kong.

its kind of late here, so briefly-

I have read the entire Bible, and lived in NYC for five years.

Christianity remains a strange exotic religion,
with no connection to our culture, except that un
general the ethics and morality (NT) is quite similar,
tho we teach it st home, not at a church.

If you wished to understand my pov, there is that.

Also that Christianity is the religion of the ” gwe lo”
barbarian ( sorry!) invaders Also a major factor in our
19th century civil war that brought destruction and death
50 times that of yours.

Weve had so much of war, invasion, revolution
and chaos that we are quite “ allergic” to causes of yet more.

Hence Christianity and Islam are not welcome.

Regarding that book…

I got myself in jail for protesting…I was beaten and more.
I didnt like it.
I am trying to be a good girl here (CF)
and here in HK tho my record in both
reflects a rebellious or independent nature.

I talked to a Jesuit priest here several times.
Quite wise and interesting.

I do see wisdom and nobility in Christianity.

This thread, I started it as i am still wanting to understand.

So far my impression of the answer is
” lo here”, and, “ lo there”.

As for the no doubt good and gentle man who
died in prison, that is quite sad.

A question tho- I read about the martyrs, so I get
that.

But is it not better to live and teach? Ghandi could
have easily sacrificed his life, but of what use is that?

Anyway, thanks, it’s so late.
All for now.
No apologies necessary, I am well aware of the history of your nation and the troubles that have been brought to your people by those who profess to be believers in Christ, and the West in general.

I presume that you were referring to what we in the West call "The Cultural Revolution" when you speak of civil war. 1966-1976 while Mao was in power. I suppose this to be what you refer to because of all the various wars in China, the death toll of this particular war far exceeded any previous conflicts. Please correct me if I am in error. In defense of my Christian brothers, that war was brought about by the Marxists, the Marxist Communists were Jewish Zionists. As the Zionist control most of the media, including Google, finding reliable information on this topic can be quite difficult, but its out there if you are interested.

Regarding sacrifice. I can only imagine, that Watchman Nee would have preferred to live out his life in peace and freedom, but that option was not afforded him. He would have had to leave China for that to be the case. But his heart was for Christ and to bring the love of Christ to his people.

Christ on the other hand, knew full well before coming to this earth that He would eventually give His life as a ransom for His people, the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and not only them, but that He would die for the sins of the whole world.

Christ willingly laid down His life to redeem mankind from the penalty of sin, satisfying the justice of Almighty God. God Himself became a man. And through the death and resurrection of this man, God is not only proven to be perfectly just, but perfectly merciful.

Which I'm sure, will only lead to more questions for you. I'm just a regular guy, no priest, no prophet. But one who endeavors to make full use of this amazing love extended to me by Gods own Son. So if you do have more questions, I will do my best to answer them.

I appreciate your candor and your sincerity.
Be well. Be blessed.

Jesus loves you very very much.
 
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Astrid

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No apologies necessary, I am well aware of the history of your nation and the troubles that have been brought to your people by those who profess to be believers in Christ, and the West in general.

I presume that you were referring to what we in the West call "The Cultural Revolution" when you speak of civil war. 1966-1976 while Mao was in power. I suppose this to be what you refer to because of all the various wars in China, the death toll of this particular war far exceeded any previous conflicts. Please correct me if I am in error. In defense of my Christian brothers, that war was brought about by the Marxists, the Marxist Communists were Jewish Zionists. As the Zionist control most of the media, including Google, finding reliable information on this topic can be quite difficult, but its out there if you are interested.

Regarding sacrifice. I can only imagine, that Watchman Nee would have preferred to live out his life in peace and freedom, but that option was not afforded him. He would have had to leave China for that to be the case. But his heart was for Christ and to bring the love of Christ to his people.

Christ on the other hand, knew full well before coming to this earth that He would eventually give His life as a ransom for His people, the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and not only them, but that He would die for the sins of the whole world.

Christ willingly laid down His life to redeem mankind from the penalty of sin, satisfying the justice of Almighty God. God Himself became a man. And through the death and resurrection of this man, God is not only proven to be perfectly just, but perfectly merciful.

Which I'm sure, will only lead to more questions for you. I'm just a regular guy, no priest, no prophet. But one who endeavors to make full use of this amazing love extended to me by Gods own Son. So if you do have more questions, I will do my best to answer them.

I appreciate your candor and your sincerity.
Be well. Be blessed.

Jesus loves you very very much.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Chinese, yes, Hong Kong.

its kind of late here, so briefly-

I have read the entire Bible, and lived in NYC for five years.

Christianity remains a strange exotic religion,
with no connection to our culture, except that un
general the ethics and morality (NT) is quite similar,
tho we teach it st home, not at a church.

If you wished to understand my pov, there is that.

Also that Christianity is the religion of the ” gwe lo”
barbarian ( sorry!) invaders Also a major factor in our
19th century civil war that brought destruction and death
50 times that of yours.

Weve had so much of war, invasion, revolution
and chaos that we are quite “ allergic” to causes of yet more.

Hence Christianity and Islam are not welcome.

Regarding that book…

I got myself in jail for protesting…I was beaten and more.
I didnt like it.
I am trying to be a good girl here (CF)
and here in HK tho my record in both
reflects a rebellious or independent nature.

I talked to a Jesuit priest here several times.
Quite wise and interesting.

I do see wisdom and nobility in Christianity.

This thread, I started it as i am still wanting to understand.

So far my impression of the answer is
” lo here”, and, “ lo there”.

As for the no doubt good and gentle man who
died in prison, that is quite sad.

A question tho- I read about the martyrs, so I get
that.

But is it not better to live and teach? Ghandi could
have easily sacrificed his life, but of what use is that?

Anyway, thanks, it’s so late.
All for now.

There was Ghandi, but there was also Richard Wurmbrand.
 
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JonasDaniels

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That was an interesting read, and something I knew nothing about, thanks.

The only thing I would add, is that Hong was clearly a nutcase, as Joseph Smith who is also mentioned in the article. And in no way do they represent Jesus Christ.

In fact, Christ warned us of these type of people. The Apostle John referred to them as antichrists. He said that many were already among us, and that more would come.

There are many among us today. Not everyone who names the name of Christ belongs to Christ.

Examples of this are numerous, far too numerous to mention them all here.
 
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Astrid

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I was referring to the Tai Ping rebellion in the 19th century.

Without reviewing the years from then to 1949,
there was political upheaval, foreign intervention,
invasion and civil strife.

The “ nationalists” who still controlTaiwan were corrupt and inept: Mao
absorbed entire battalions freshly armed with American supplied
weapons, who then defected to Mao.
The USA is still perpetuating the civil war, arming
Taiwan and threatening China.

Mao instituted a lot of good reform. But as is the way
of Power, he became corrupt. None of it has anything to
do with Jews.

I know the Bible- story of Jesus. Ive my own quite
different thoughts about who he was, what he did.

The Bible is not a cohesive book with its
contradictory messages and enormous latitude
for divers interpretations.

That which Is sound and of value to
me are the meditations on how to live a virtuous
life.

We see love and virtue in terms of what a person
actually does, the western use of the word “ love”
is not used, has no meaning here.

Im interested in the core values of Christianity, and how they
would guide the behaviour of that idealized person, the true believer,
aka I suppose, true Christian.
 
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Astrid

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That was an interesting read, and something I knew nothing about, thanks.

The only thing I would add, is that Hong was clearly a nutcase, as Joseph Smith who is also mentioned in the article. And in no way do they represent Jesus Christ.

In fact, Christ warned us of these type of people. The Apostle John referred to them as antichrists. He said that many were already among us, and that more would come.

There are many among us today. Not everyone who names the name of Christ belongs to Christ.

Examples of this are numerous, far too numerous to mention them all here.
I’m no tele- psychologist but “nut case” is not how I would view
people who were clearly very calculating and capable.

I rather respect Hong if only for his ideals.
J Smith was con man, as I suspect “ Paul” was too.

Was Jesus speaking of such as him?

But back to “ true believer”

I guess I will only succeed in
collecting opinions.
 
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timothyu

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Im interested in the core values of Christianity, and how they
would guide the behaviour of that idealized person, the true believer,
aka I suppose, true Christian.
This is why all in the world can follow the Kingdom, rather than Christianity
 
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JonasDaniels

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I’m no tele- psychologist but “nut case” is not how I would view
people who were clearly very calculating and capable.

I rather respect Hong if only for his ideals.
J Smith was con man, as I suspect “ Paul” was too.

Was Jesus speaking of such as him?

But back to “ true believer”

I guess I will only succeed in
collecting opinions.
It took a while, but I am beginning to see the purpose of your thread.
 
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