What is it about forgiveness?

[Plutonius]

But there are times when we need to hear that "Jesus died for me." Our Christian faith is both personal and collective at the same time. We need to know we have a personal relationship with Him, and we need to know that we are part of a larger Body with whom we share this wonderful faith. It's when we forget one over the other, or emphasize one over the other that we get into trouble.

This is true, but most get so caught up in the personal they forget the corporate.

 

[Jim47]

Everyone has made some really good points about this. Of course they don't want to hear that they are sinners as DaRev said. Sin is something that we don't like to confess to because it implicates us of being guilty of God's law for our lives. And I have to agree with Ed, I think its in part because they are insecure of their faith and don't really have the comfort of forgiveness in their hearts. Head knowledge as Ed said is also part of their comfort level. I know of several people from this forum who were string Lutherans and were always poking around in the BoC and ended up leaving Lutheranism to go east. Many times its an intelectual persuit. Many folks also need an idle, other then Christ. Such as CL Lewis (maybe its not CL, I've never read his works, or Spurgeon. I had a pretty good Baptist friend from another forum who was a huge Spurgeon follower, in fact he used that name at the other forum and also has an account here under that name.

But I think the big reason is that just are insecure in their faith, probably because they place works into the equasion of being saved, and one can never do enough good works to gain salvation. And once you have placed works into the equation of needs to be saved, you have placed a man made provision that no one can fullfill. That in a nut shell is why they they tremble. For they have rejected Jesus work of salvation as being insuffiecient and added man made works to make it complete. This was the same mistake the Judaizers made in scripture that Paul speaks of. Nothing new under the sun. Many still fall to error


Sorry I missed your B-Day party Rev.

 

[DaRev]

Sorry I missed your B-Day party Rev.

There was no party to miss.

 

[LilLamb219]

Then we should throw you a party? We'll have your favorite beverage on hand!

 

[filosofer]

At least with the 45th birthday it's close enough that I can vaguely remember it.

While forgiveness isn't the totality of our faith, it is certainly a core belief. The result of Christ's work brings justification to those who don't deserve it, and it is received by faith, which includes the forgiveness of sins. Why wouldn't someone want to talk about it? Well, for several reasons...

Forgiveness is very difficult, because our sinful nature fights against it. Sometimes the struggle with sin is such that the person only sees failure instead of forgiveness and victory in Christ. And we like to hear others' sins condemned, but not our own. We seem to think that somehow we shouldn't expose ourselves for our sins, not realizing that confession prepares one for forgiveness.

I remember vividly people who finally came to grips with forgiveness. It's as if the light was finally on! One woman struggled for months, thinking it was something she had to do/accomplish. One day it was clear to her. What a transformation of a person in a day!!!

In Christ's love,
filo

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

Guilt does not leave room for good feelings. God cannot be total love if he is constantly remiinding us of our sin. Happy-clappy is what makes the charismatic and non-denoms fell good about themselves. Guilt of sin makes them feel bad so they don't want to hear of it. They direct their love to Jesus becasue he is less judgemental of them. "I am your intermediary between God and man so I can protect you" kind of theology.

That's why you will not find very much emphasis on forgiveness or sin. When it's all about "you" then there is room only for your theology. They change God around to their image. "Jesus is my buddy so he will take the heat off of me'"

Since there isn't much guilt then they have to feel bad about something so they "invent" things like following the mosaic laws to a "T" or the "end times". It still involves them so they now have quilt but not the guilt of sin and the forgiveness that they have through Jesus's death on the cross and resurection.

Weird idea? Maybe

 

[Jim47]

This whole conversation is really good. Thanks LilLamb for starting it

It also brings to mind the most somber day of the year which is coming up shortly. Good Friday

Last year after Good Friday services we stopped at the video store and rented Mel Gibsons Passion of The Christ. There were times when I had to look away. Even though it was a dramatization we all know that Jesus suffered more agony then is humanly possible. The worst part was that He would have to face His very Own Father turning away from Him and chafing Him guilty of all the sins of the world. I can't even imagine how terrible that was. Its also very uncomfortable for me to think that my sins alone nailed Him to the cross. So I can understand a little how some who have no sound basis for their faith feel. They just don't feel whole, they are still unworthy as they have rejected the forgiveness that was won for them by placing man made requirements upon salvation. This is also what happens when you state that you have to make a decision for Christ. You have taken away from The Holy Spirit's work and taken His work to be your own. And then in the next breath you cry for a baptisim of The Holy Spirit. Can't be both ways. Either we accept Jesus work of salvation and The Holy Spirit's work of bringing us to faith or we take credit for ourselves. I only wish that we could make everyone see this.

 

[LilLamb219]

They direct their love to Jesus becasue he is less judgemental of them. "I am your intermediary between God and man so I can protect you" kind of theology.

That's an interesting way of putting it. I'm going to have to ponder that for a bit. I think you might have something here.

 

[Jim47]

Guilt does not leave room for good feelings. God cannot be total love if he is constantly remiinding us of our sin. Happy-clappy is what makes the charismatic and non-denoms fell good about themselves. Guilt of sin makes them feel bad so they don't want to hear of it. They direct their love to Jesus becasue he is less judgemental of them. "I am your intermediary between God and man so I can protect you" kind of theology.

That's why you will not find very much emphasis on forgiveness or sin. When it's all about "you" then there is room only for your theology. They change God around to their image. "Jesus is my buddy so he will take the heat off of me'"

Since there isn't much guilt then they have to feel bad about something so they "invent" things like following the mosaic laws to a "T" or the "end times". It still involves them so they now have quilt but not the guilt of sin and the forgiveness that they have through Jesus's death on the cross and resurection.

Weird idea? Maybe

I think you are right John. Lost of good points. I would love to post this whole thread into the forum I used to belong to. Of course they would all ban me

 

[LilLamb219]

Either we accept Jesus work of salvation and The Holy Spirit's work of bringing us to faith or we take credit for ourselves. I only wish that we could make everyone see this.

As long as "accept" is in a passive way....too many people use that word as if it's what brought them to salvation!

 

[LilLamb219]

I think you are right John. Lost of good points. I would love to post this whole thread into the forum I used to belong to. Of course they would all ban me

PM me the name of the forum you used to belong to, ok? I don't mind getting banned It's worth it to tell the truth!

 

[LilLamb219]

While forgiveness isn't the totality of our faith, it is certainly a core belief. The result of Christ's work brings justification to those who don't deserve it, and it is received by faith, which includes the forgiveness of sins.

There's our wonderful word "Justification"...that word also scares off a lot of people!

It's because of objective justification that I really feel the comfort of the Gospel

 

[DaRev]

As long as "accept" is in a passive way....too many people use that word as if it's what brought them to salvation!

I prefer to use the word "acknowledge."

 

[filosofer]

As long as "accept" is in a passive way....too many people use that word as if it's what brought them to salvation!

I prefer to use the word "acknowledge."

[FONT= "Book Antiqua"]
I think the biblical term is (in English) believe.



In Christ's love,
filo
[/font]

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

It's an odd scenerio with them. They remind me of Hasiadic Orthodox Jews. They dissect the whole old testament and its laws like we do the new testament and its grace. I think of them as OT Christians and us as NT Christians. Their obsession with the keeping of ALL the rules in the OT is more on the order of good works than saving grace.

Go to any non-denom, Charismatic or AoG church and you will rarely hear anything from the NT. Only to support something from the OT. Even their websites follow that format.

Their salvation seems to come from keeping OT law and miss the whole grace and mercy of God and his forgiveness. They live under condemnation constantly if they don't follow the "rules".

 

[Edial]

It's an odd scenerio with them. They remind me of Hasiadic Orthodox Jews. They dissect the whole old testament and its laws like we do the new testament and its grace. I think of them as OT Christians and us as NT Christians. Their obsession with the keeping of ALL the rules in the OT is more on the order of good works than saving grace.

Go to any non-denom, Charismatic or AoG church and you will rarely hear anything from the NT. Only to support something from the OT. Even their websites follow that format.

Their salvation seems to come from keeping OT law and miss the whole grace and mercy of God and his forgiveness. They live under condemnation constantly if they don't follow the "rules".

Unfortunately some do take the OT passages to interpret the NT passages.
But it is the other way around. NT interprets OT.

That is why Christ came - to "interpret" the OT.

Yes, I agree. Theology must be NT-centered.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[walloffire]

What is it about forgiveness that a lot of denominations are afraid to talk about it????

I have such a gripe about this.

Time and time again I either read, hear or see other people from other denoms who speak about the Gospel, how you need the Gospel and need to preach the Gospel, you gotta have Jesus, etc, but NEVER once mention the word forgive or forgiveness. Why is that? Why is it taboo?

Are they afraid? Are they unsure?

What is it?

Perhaps because it is never talked about in the context of REPENTANCE:

Luke 17:1-6
(1) Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offenses will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
(2) It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
(3) Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
(4) And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
(5) And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
(6) And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

Forgiveness is often taught so sloppy that it sounds powerless. Forgiveness and repentance are tightly linked above.

So...... what do you do if your brother trespasses against you? STEP 1: REBUKE HIM (verse 3). THEN, IF HE REPENT, (verse 3), then forgive him.

But people are scared to talk about forgiveness in this context. It makes them feel uneasy, because, frankly, who has ever said to you "I repent"? Seriously, when? But they ought to have, because we offend each other greatly daily, sometimes knowing it and sometimes not. If no one has ever said it to you before, then let me be the first: I repent.

At that point, it requires faith (verse 5 "increase our faith") to forgive a person who has repented, even if its the 49th time today that he has turned to you and said "I repent". And when was the last time YOU told anyone that YOU repent of what you did? Surely you have not perfectly loved your neighbor as yourself, so offenses do exist, so you ought to tell them you repent, and also repent in truth, and bear good fruit.

Yea? But why do people never talk about repentance when the topic of forgiveness comes up, as though they were somehow separate or different? Repenting people get forgiven. Proud people do not repent, humble people do repent, God gives grace to the humble.

Luk 7:44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
Luk 7:45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.
Luk 7:46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.
Luk 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
Luk 7:48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
Luk 7:49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

 

[walloffire]

Luk 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

 

[Tofferer]

(3) Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
(4) And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Oddly enough, this was the text used for my sermon last week (pastor was at a national convention). If interested, I could post a copy of that sermon in a new thread, but for the sake of this post I will cut to the chase. We all need forgiveness. However, sin can cut us off from those that we love and love us. Forgiveness is an act of love that can keep us from being separated from those we love.

Simple truth. We all sin. That is why Christ died upon the cross. That was God showing his love for us in the sacrifice of his son. God did not want sin to separate us from him.

 

[walloffire]

yes, but that completely ignores the "seven times in one day" saying "I repent" bit. have ye anything to say about that?