What is ID?

[bhsmte]

Theological assertions are wisdom. God is the absolute, infinite and eternal truth. The one uncaused reality. Finite man and his material universe isn't the cause, it is the consequence.

Apart form the mercy ministry of revelation, finite man can't help but to create an illogical universe in his conception of origins.

Theological wisdom is a dime a dozen.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

If we collected all of the elements that that make up a dog, put them in separate piles an observed them congeal together, and a dog popped out, then yes, that would be supernatural.

Yeah, man. Exactly! That would be supernatural and we know that because we contrast that with the natural way dogs are born.

The supernatural happened long ago when the creators of life organized the patterns which eventually evolved into dogs of today. Atheist avoid the explanation of the beginning of life by drawing attention to the evolution of that life as evidenced in the fossil record as well as the living product of those implantations today.

No. I'm not going to speak for all atheists, but they don't have to avoid the explanation of the beginning of life by diverting attention to evolution. You can both try to understand evolution, and the origins of life without unnecessarily conflating the two. Now, trying to undermine evolution by appealing to the origin of life question...that's some avoidance.

Man transcends the material as a conscious being. If we were just machines we wouldn't have two different interpretations of the origins of life.

To prove such an assertion you have to show consciousness existing without needing a brain.

 

[Colter]

Yeah, man. Exactly! That would be supernatural and we know that because we contrast that with the natural way dogs are born.


No. I'm not going to speak for all atheists, but they don't have to avoid the explanation of the beginning of life by diverting attention to evolution. You can both try to understand evolution, and the origins of life without unnecessarily conflating the two. Now, trying to undermine evolution by appealing to the origin of life question...that's some avoidance.


To prove such an assertion you have to show consciousness existing without needing a brain.

Life begets life, that doesn't avoid life's progressive evolution.
Consciousness is transcendence. To observe is to be apart from.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Life begets life, that doesn't avoid life's progressive evolution.
Consciousness is transcendence. To observe is to be apart from.

Does evolution occur?

 

[Colter]

Does evolution occur?

Yes, on many levels of reality.

 

[Colter]

Many animals also have consciousness. Are they are transcendent?

Where is the dividing line between those with transcendent consciousness and those that are just ordinary matter? For it seems to be a continuous variation from viruses to human, with many incremental steps in between. Wherever one puts the break, it has to be arbitrary.

The evolution of life up to the dawn of man was characterized by "sudden" mutations with intermittent variations of adaptation. I will use the cell phone analogy again. Suppose there had always been a cell phone signal with towers to transmit but no hardware intelligent enough to receive it? When man-mind first appeared on earth roughly 1,000,000 years ago, then and there was mind capable of being conscious of it's consciousness; introspection.


Here, I will use a clip from the UB which delineates between will conscious man and machine like animal.


MORALS, VIRTUE, AND PERSONALITY

16:7.1 Intelligence alone cannot explain the moral nature. Morality, virtue, is indigenous to human personality. Moral intuition, the realization of duty, is a component of human mind endowment and is associated with the other inalienables of human nature: scientific curiosity and spiritual insight. Man's mentality far transcends that of his animal cousins, but it is his moral and religious natures that especially distinguish him from the animal world.

16:7.2 "The selective response of an animal is limited to the motor level of behavior. The supposed insight of the higher animals is on a motor level and usually appears only after the experience of motor trial and error. Man is able to exercise scientific, moral, and spiritual insight prior to all exploration or experimentation.

16:7.3 Only a personality can know what it is doing before it does it; only personalities possess insight in advance of experience. A personality can look before it leaps and can therefore learn from looking as well as from leaping. A nonpersonal animal ordinarily learns only by leaping.

16:7.4 As a result of experience an animal becomes able to examine the different ways of attaining a goal and to select an approach based on accumulated experience. But a personality can also examine the goal itself and pass judgment on its worth-whileness, its value. Intelligence alone can discriminate as to the best means of attaining indiscriminate ends, but a moral being possesses an insight which enables him to discriminate between ends as well as between means. And a moral being in choosing virtue is nonetheless intelligent. He knows what he is doing, why he is doing it, where he is going, and how he will get there." UB

 

[Colter]

OK, so call our bluff and provide convincing, real evidence for your preferred alternative.

I don't know of any convincing evidence for life implantation on earth. What seems like common sense to me doesn't seem like common sense to others. But then there is the gift of revelation, but materialists reject that out of hand, so there isn't much we can do.

 

[doubtingmerle]

The evolution of life up to the dawn of man was characterized by "sudden" mutations with intermittent variations of adaptation.

Ok, so you accept that humans evolved from one celled creatures over a long period of time?

Mutations, almost by definition, are "sudden". What would a gradual mutation even look like?

I will use the cell phone analogy again. Suppose there had always been a cell phone signal with towers to transmit but no hardware intelligent enough to receive it? When man-mind first appeared on earth roughly 1,000,000 years ago, then and there was mind capable of being conscious of it's consciousness; introspection.

What part of the brain "answers the phone"? If there are signals from outside directing the brain, then one would expect there is something in the brain handling that communication. We don't see that. Instead we see, in humans, a brain that is very similar to that of other apes, only much larger with minor other changes. Where is the "antenna" and "receiver"?

And who were the parents of the first human that was able to "answer the phone"? Were his parents unable to "answer the phone"?

Studies have shown that the brain makes a decision before our consciousness is aware that we are making the decision. In the experiments, people are told to sit still and then push a button while watching a moving pointer. Then they say where the pointer was when they decided to push the button. We can see a burst of brainwaves just before they push the button, which obviously is when they are making the decision to push it. Interestingly, that burst of brainwaves occurs before the person is aware that he is making the decision, as determined by where the pointer reportedly was when he decided. To me, that means the brain itself is making the decision, that the burst of brainwaves represents the decision, and consciousness is just coming along for the ride. If you think consciousness is something outside the brain, that makes the decisions and sends signals to the brain, then why does the increase in brainwaves occur before the conscious decision?

 

[xianghua]

There are no existing automatic factories.

so if there was such a factory that can produce cars automatically you will conclude design or natural process?

 

[LutheranGuy123]

so if there was such a factory that can produce cars automatically you will conclude design or natural process?

Depends. There isn't a biological process that allows for the formation of gears and pullies and such, so it would probably still have to be designed. If the factory was made of organic bits and we weren't around to actually see how it came to be, then it could have evolved.

 

[Colter]

Ok, so you accept that humans evolved from one celled creatures over a long period of time?

Mutations, almost by definition, are "sudden". What would a gradual mutation even look like?

What part of the brain "answers the phone"? If there are signals from outside directing the brain, then one would expect there is something in the brain handling that communication. We don't see that. Instead we see, in humans, a brain that is very similar to that of other apes, only much larger with minor other changes. Where is the "antenna" and "receiver"?

And who were the parents of the first human that was able to "answer the phone"? Were his parents unable to "answer the phone"?

Studies have shown that the brain makes a decision before our consciousness is aware that we are making the decision. In the experiments, people are told to sit still and then push a button while watching a moving pointer. Then they say where the pointer was when they decided to push the button. We can see a burst of brainwaves just before they push the button, which obviously is when they are making the decision to push it. Interestingly, that burst of brainwaves occurs before the person is aware that he is making the decision, as determined by where the pointer reportedly was when he decided. To me, that means the brain itself is making the decision, that the burst of brainwaves represents the decision, and consciousness is just coming along for the ride. If you think consciousness is something outside the brain, that makes the decisions and sends signals to the brain, then why does the increase in brainwaves occur before the conscious decision?

*I believe life evolved and was "fostered" from an original life implantation.

* Animal mind is capable of certain fazes of spirit perception of the Cosmic Mind. There are 7 adjutant mind spirits: "The seven adjutants have been given the following names: the spirit of wisdom, the spirit of worship, the spirit of counsel, the spirit of knowledge, the spirit of courage, the spirit of understanding, the spirit of intuition—of quick perception."UB

Wisdom and worship are unique to human mind as well as personality.

The spirits of God interact with intelligent mind.


The first pair of humans were a "sudden" development within a family of inferior parents roughly 1,000,000 years ago in the highlands of what is now Afghanistan. Asia is the homeland of the human race, not Africa.

The First Human Family: Paper 63, The Urantia Book

ANDON AND FONTA


63:1.1 In many respects, Andon and Fonta were the most remarkable pair of human beings that have ever lived on the face of the earth. This wonderful pair, the actual parents of all mankind, were in every way superior to many of their immediate descendants, and they were radically different from all of their ancestors, both immediate and remote.

63:1.2 The parents of this first human couple were apparently little different from the average of their tribe, though they were among its more intelligent members, that group which first learned to throw stones and to use clubs in fighting. They also made use of sharp spicules of stone, flint, and bone.

63:1.3 While still living with his parents, Andon had fastened a sharp piece of flint on the end of a club, using animal tendons for this purpose, and on no less than a dozen occasions he made good use of such a weapon in saving both his own life and that of his equally adventurous and inquisitive sister, who unfailingly accompanied him on all of his tours of exploration.

Primates tribes implies a quality of mind far above the baser intelligence which characterized so many of their later descendants who stooped to mate with their retarded cousins of the simian tribes. But their vague feeling of being something more than mere animals was due to the possession of personality and was augmented by the indwelling presence of the Thought Adjusters.

 

[Colter]

"111:1.5 Mortal mind is a temporary intellect system loaned to human beings for use during a material lifetime, and as they use this mind, they are either accepting or rejecting the potential of eternal existence. Mind is about all you have of universe reality that is subject to your will, and the soul—the morontia self—will faithfully portray the harvest of the temporal decisions which the mortal self is making. Human consciousness rests gently upon the electrochemical mechanism below and delicately touches the spirit-morontia energy system above. Of neither of these two systems is the human being ever completely conscious in his mortal life; therefore must he work in mind, of which he is conscious. And it is not so much what mind comprehends as what mind desires to comprehend that insures survival; it is not so much what mind is like as what mind is striving to be like that constitutes spirit identification. It is not so much that man is conscious of God as that man yearns for God that results in universe ascension. What you are today is not so important as what you are becoming day by day and in eternity." UB 1955

 

[xianghua]

If the factory was made of organic bits and we weren't around to actually see how it came to be, then it could have evolved.

so a car that can replicate iteslf and made from organic components isnt an evidence for design?

 

[bhsmte]

so a car that can replicate iteslf and made from organic components isnt an evidence for design?

What car would that be?

 

[Speedwell]

so a car that can replicate iteslf and made from organic components isnt an evidence for design?

No. Functional organization alone is not evidence of design.

 

[LutheranGuy123]

so a car that can replicate iteslf and made from organic components isnt an evidence for design?

Isn't that basically a dog?

 

[Skreeper]

so a car that can replicate iteslf and made from organic components isnt an evidence for design?

In this case this object doesn't fit the definition of a car anymore. You'd have to give it a new name.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Isn't that basically a dog?

or a horse.

 

[bhsmte]

Isn't that basically a dog?

Sure. A dog has 4 wheel drive.

 

[Colter]

If you take cotton, set it on a table, given a sufficient amount of time, it will become a shirt.

Given time inert materials get board, they insist on complicating their existence.....and for no particular reason.

Home Depot works to keep materials separate because they have had a problem with spontaneous assemblage. Once they found a dog made from nuts and bolts.