What is hell?

[RediGrace]

Is there one paticular belief in what hell is supposed to be or is it all theory. I'm asking becaue I've heard different beliefs in what hell is. I've heard the eternal hellfire and torment, I've also heard that some think hell is just being isolated away from God (aren't we separated from him already?). I've also heard that some believe there is no hell, which I'm not sure i like the idea of Hitler hanging out with mother Theresa lol. :o

I dont know how denominations differ between belief in hell, but any insight is good

 

[bibleblevr]

Here is my view, which stems from the best of my Bible probing abilities.

Hell is a place of disposal, it is where the soul is destroyed,(second death) and evil is finally eradicated. People in hell will be punished in accordance with thier sins by a just God,(Luke 12-47-48) then will cease to exist. the effect is eternal, and the chief punishment is never existing with God, or being under his grace.

 

[AlexBP]

As you say, there are many different interpretations of the passages about hell, and what I'm saying is my own personal interpretation. Whenever Jesus speaks about those who reject the gospel message, he uses the term "destruction", as in Matthew 7:13. So from that it would seem to indicate that those people cease to exist after death. Whenever he mentions the "fires" of hell and the "agony" suffered by people after death, it is in reference to people who caused great suffering to others during their life time. Look at Matthew 25:41-46 and Luke 16:1-31. So it would seem that there is suffering in the afterlife for those who caused great suffering on earth. Now how to square these two things. Do those who cause suffering on earth endure suffering in the afterlife for a time and then cease to exist? There's no specific answer to that question, so I believe it was intended to be left ambiguous.

As to what the specific nature of hell actually is, I generally agree with those who say that it is the state of being in which people are entirely separated from God. The difference from our mortal state on earth is twofold. First, on Earth God is constantly reaching out to us through the Holy Spirit, through miracles, and through the beauty of all creation. Second, that on Earth those who commit major sins have defense mechanisms to avoid facing the facts about their sins. Psychologists would agree that many people avoid facing the truth about their misdeeds through denial and distraction, by alcohol, drugs, and other material distractions. Whereas souls in hell do not have access to such distractions and must live with direct, unavoidable awareness of what they did wrong at all times. It has sometimes been said that the worst imaginable hell is being forced to watch endless videotapes of your own mistakes.

 

[aiki]

Matthew 25:46 - "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Here are some excerpts from Ron Rhodes' book "Reasoning From the Scriptures with the Jehovah's Witnesses" that I think are pertinent to this thread:

"The punishment spoken of in Matthew 25:46 cannot be defined as a nonsuffering extinction of consciousness. Indeed, if actual suffering is lacking, then so is punishment. Let us be clear in this: punishment entails suffering. And suffering necessarily entails consciousness. Bible scholar John Gerstner comments, 'One can exist and not be punished; but no one can be punished and not exist. Annihilation means the obliteration of existence and anything that pertains to existence, such as punishment. Annihilation avoids punishment, rather than encountering it.' " (pg. 331)

"How do we know that the punishment in Matthew 25:46 does not entail an extinction of consciousness and annihilation? There are many evidences. For example, consider the fact that there are no degrees of annihilation. As Bible scholar Alan Gomes explains it, 'one is either annihilated or one is not. In contrast, the Scripture teaches that there will be degrees of punishment on the day of judgment (Matt. 10:15; 11:21-24; 16:27; Luke 12:47-48; John 15:22; Heb. 10:29; Rev. 20:11-15; 22:12, etc.)' The very fact that people will suffer degrees of punishment in hell shows that annihilation or the extinction of consciousness is not taught in Matthew 25:46 or anywhere else in Scripture. These are incompatible concepts." (pg. 332)

"Moreover, one cannot deny that for a person who is suffering excruciating pain, the extinction of his or her consciousness would actually be a blessing, not a punishment. As theologian William Shedd notes, 'The guilty and remorseful have, in all ages, deemed the extinction of consciousness after death to be a blessing; but the advocate of conditional immortality explains it to be a curse.' Any honest seeker after truth must admit that one cannot define eternal punishment as an extinction of consciousness.

Torment cannot, by definition, be anything but conscious torment. One cannot torment a tree, a rock, or a house. By its very nature, being tormented requires consciousness. Alan Gomes comments, 'A punishment that is not felt is not punishment..."

Note also in Matthew 25:46 that this punishment is said to be eternal. There is no way that annihiliationism or an extinction of consciousness can be forced into this passage. Indeed, the adjective "aionion" in this verse means "everlasting, without end." ...this same adjective is predicated of God (the "eternal" God) in Romans 16:26, 1 Timothy 1:7, Hebrews 9:14, 13:8, and Revelation 4:9. The punishment of the wicked is just as eternal as the forever existence of our eternal God. Moreover, as Professor Gomes notes,

What is particularly determinative here is the fact that the
duration of punishment for the wicked forms a parallel with
the duration of life for the righteous: the adjective "aionios"
is used to describe both the length of punishment for the
wicked and the length of eternal life for the righteous. One
cannot limit the duration of punishment for the wicked with-
out at the same time limiting the duration of eternal life for
the redeemed. It would do violence to the parallel to give it
an unlimited signification in the case of eternal life, but a
limited one when applied to the punishment of the wicked.

Selah.

 

[bibleblevr]

Matthew 25:46 - "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Here are some excerpts from Ron Rhodes' book "Reasoning From the Scriptures with the Jehovah's Witnesses" that I think are pertinent to this thread:

"The punishment spoken of in Matthew 25:46 cannot be defined as a nonsuffering extinction of consciousness. Indeed, if actual suffering is lacking, then so is punishment. Let us be clear in this: punishment entails suffering. And suffering necessarily entails consciousness. Bible scholar John Gerstner comments, 'One can exist and not be punished; but no one can be punished and not exist. Annihilation means the obliteration of existence and anything that pertains to existence, such as punishment. Annihilation avoids punishment, rather than encountering it.' " (pg. 331)

"How do we know that the punishment in Matthew 25:46 does not entail an extinction of consciousness and annihilation? There are many evidences. For example, consider the fact that there are no degrees of annihilation. As Bible scholar Alan Gomes explains it, 'one is either annihilated or one is not. In contrast, the Scripture teaches that there will be degrees of punishment on the day of judgment (Matt. 10:15; 11:21-24; 16:27; Luke 12:47-48; John 15:22; Heb. 10:29; Rev. 20:11-15; 22:12, etc.)' The very fact that people will suffer degrees of punishment in hell shows that annihilation or the extinction of consciousness is not taught in Matthew 25:46 or anywhere else in Scripture. These are incompatible concepts." (pg. 332)

"Moreover, one cannot deny that for a person who is suffering excruciating pain, the extinction of his or her consciousness would actually be a blessing, not a punishment. As theologian William Shedd notes, 'The guilty and remorseful have, in all ages, deemed the extinction of consciousness after death to be a blessing; but the advocate of conditional immortality explains it to be a curse.' Any honest seeker after truth must admit that one cannot define eternal punishment as an extinction of consciousness.

Torment cannot, by definition, be anything but conscious torment. One cannot torment a tree, a rock, or a house. By its very nature, being tormented requires consciousness. Alan Gomes comments, 'A punishment that is not felt is not punishment..."

Note also in Matthew 25:46 that this punishment is said to be eternal. There is no way that annihiliationism or an extinction of consciousness can be forced into this passage. Indeed, the adjective "aionion" in this verse means "everlasting, without end." ...this same adjective is predicated of God (the "eternal" God) in Romans 16:26, 1 Timothy 1:7, Hebrews 9:14, 13:8, and Revelation 4:9. The punishment of the wicked is just as eternal as the forever existence of our eternal God. Moreover, as Professor Gomes notes,

What is particularly determinative here is the fact that the
duration of punishment for the wicked forms a parallel with
the duration of life for the righteous: the adjective "aionios"
is used to describe both the length of punishment for the
wicked and the length of eternal life for the righteous. One
cannot limit the duration of punishment for the wicked with-
out at the same time limiting the duration of eternal life for
the redeemed. It would do violence to the parallel to give it
an unlimited signification in the case of eternal life, but a
limited one when applied to the punishment of the wicked.

Selah.

I disagree,
the definition of "punishment" is a penalty for wrong doing. The penelty is simply a consequence of an action. Therefore, if the terms of the consequence are met, then the punishment has been administered.

So if the terms of the penalty are that the sinner will be eternally separated from God, then the death of the sinner has no effect on the terms of the punishment, as the punishment can still be administered since the sinner will never see God.

No, consciousness is not required for punishment, if the penalty, or rather consequence of action, is that if you are bad, I will tuck you in at night while you are sleeping, then so long as I tuck you in, the punishment has been given. The state of the one being punished has nothing to do with whether or not the punishment was given, it could effect the impact of the punishment, on the person, but unless that impact is part of the terms of the punishment, then the punishment is not voided, or canceled based on the effect.

As for your last paragraph, what about John 3:16?
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
As you can see in this and other passages I could show you if you like, eternal life is contrasted with death, or perishing.

 

[Sketcher]

Even the conservative teaching is that the fire and brimstone are not necessarily literal - but the eternal aspect of it is. Thus, what we do know is that it's a horrible place that you cannot escape or be released from.

Now, it is a result of being completely separated from God. We are not completely separated from God here and now. We can still pray to him, ask his forgiveness, and he will listen. We still see glimpses of his original creation which was "very good" and still points to him as Creator. We get at least some of God's grace radiated to us that way. But not so in Hell. What God gives us now will be absent, and my idea of describing it would be like being flushed into outer space without a space suit. The vacuum that is missing what we have now will be at least that painful and harmful.

 

[aiki]

I disagree,
the definition of "punishment" is a penalty for wrong doing.

Well, this is part of the common definition that one will encounter.

The penelty is simply a consequence of an action. Therefore, if the terms of the consequence are met, then the punishment has been administered.

So if the terms of the penalty are that the sinner will be eternally separated from God, then the death of the sinner has no effect on the terms of the punishment, as the punishment can still be administered since the sinner will never see God.

As my earlier post pointed out, eternal separation from God isn't the sole characteristic of His punishment of the wicked. It is a part, yes, but there are elements of pain, of loss of well-being, of suffering in the eternal punishment of the wicked that are clearly indicated in Scripture, too. This is what makes the punishment, punishment.

See: Matt. 8:12; 24:51; Rev. 14:10, 11.

No, consciousness is not required for punishment, if the penalty, or rather consequence of action, is that if you are bad, I will tuck you in at night while you are sleeping, then so long as I tuck you in, the punishment has been given.

Uh, what? Why are you using such an odd example to demonstrate your point? Who has ever heard of someone being tucked in at night as a punishment for anything? This is just, well, silly. How would justice be served if the punished person did not experience their punishment? The whole point of punishment is voided in such an instance. Imagine condemning a mass-murderer to death by saying, "You will be punished for what you did - but it won't hurt a bit!" You can be sure outcries of injustice would be heard by those in agony over the loss of their loved-ones at the murderer's hands!

The state of the one being punished has nothing to do with whether or not the punishment was given,

It has everything to do with it - as my last post clearly explained.

it could effect the impact of the punishment, on the person, but unless that impact is part of the terms of the punishment, then the punishment is not voided, or canceled based on the effect.

I don't mean to be rude, but this is just verbal gobbledy-[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]. Maybe you could try actually directly addressing the points that were made in the quotation I gave. That might be more productive.

Selah.

 

[ebia]

Is there one paticular belief in what hell is supposed to be or is it all theory. I'm asking becaue I've heard different beliefs in what hell is. I've heard the eternal hellfire and torment, I've also heard that some think hell is just being isolated away from God (aren't we separated from him already?). I've also heard that some believe there is no hell, which I'm not sure i like the idea of Hitler hanging out with mother Theresa lol. :o

I dont know how denominations differ between belief in hell, but any insight is good

"Hell" is, at best, a convenient but sometimes misleading label for whatever the alternative to being part of the Kingdom of God is.

Since scripture only talks about it in metaphor - being far more concerned with the Kingdom than the alternative - precise positions on the nature of hell are largely speculation.

 

[drich0150]

Hell is not the Devil's kingdom. Hell is a place of punishment for all of it's residence. Fire and torment are the closest thing we have//had to describe the emotion and feeling brought on by the consuming nature of the eternal darkness we face in being separated from God (In Hell.) Being separated from God is far worse than just being set a fire. The emotional response one has when being set on fire is what the bible is trying to describe. the panic, the alarm, the desperation one seeks for rescue. This is what Hell fire is, not so much physical pain, but the emotional distress of being on or consumed by fire. (this is only the beginning.)

In a sense we are away from God in this life, in that we can not see Him, but even so because we are in and apart of creation we are still in the presents of God. Hell is the void, the pit, or absents of creation. All of creation, even the the part of creation that affords you control over your own mind.

If you really want to know what Hell is then ask God to show you the "Gates."

 

[bibleblevr]

Well, this is part of the common definition that one will encounter.



As my earlier post pointed out, eternal separation from God isn't the sole characteristic of His punishment of the wicked. It is a part, yes, but there are elements of pain, of loss of well-being, of suffering in the eternal punishment of the wicked that are clearly indicated in Scripture, too. This is what makes the punishment, punishment.

See: Matt. 8:12; 24:51; Rev. 14:10, 11.

I agree, separation is not the only punishment.

Uh, what? Why are you using such an odd example to demonstrate your point? Who has ever heard of someone being tucked in at night as a punishment for anything? This is just, well, silly. How would justice be served if the punished person did not experience their punishment? The whole point of punishment is voided in such an instance. Imagine condemning a mass-murderer to death by saying, "You will be punished for what you did - but it won't hurt a bit!" You can be sure outcries of injustice would be heard by those in agony over the loss of their loved-ones at the murderer's hands!

It was an odd example because I started into the argument that the success of implementing a punishment is not the same as simply making a person miserable, it only has to do with whether or not the terms of the punishment were met. However, I didn't develop that point and the strange example remained.

My theory is that the punishment in hell will be more for some and less for others. the punishment would of course be fair and just, since God is fair and just.

47"That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

 

[bibleblevr]

I don't mean to be rude, but this is just verbal gobbledy

Selah.

Really? let me attempt to explain, (in smaller words)

it could effect the impact of the punishment, on the person, but unless that impact is part of the terms of the punishment, then the punishment is not voided, or canceled based on the effect.

If eternal separation is proscribed, then the punishment must separate the sinner forever. Lets look at the two possible scenarios, first, the person would live forever, and be separated for that time. In this case the terms of the punishment,( That the sinner would be separated from God forever) are met. Second scenario, the sinner perishes, and ceases to exist. in this scenario, the terms of the punishment are also met, since the sinner is eternally separated from God.

 

[Jpark]

Never mind.

 

[aiki]

It was an odd example because I started into the argument that the success of implementing a punishment is not the same as simply making a person miserable, it only has to do with whether or not the terms of the punishment were met.

I can understand making distinctions about how a punishment is administered, what form the punishment will take, but all punishment entails in some measure making the punished "miserable." Without an adverse effect upon the one who is punished, a punishment is no punishment at all.

My theory is that the punishment in hell will be more for some and less for others. the punishment would of course be fair and just, since God is fair and just.

So, you aren't asserting an annihilationist position now?

Really? let me attempt to explain, (in smaller words)

*Sigh* It isn't smaller words that are necessary, but clearer explanations.

If eternal separation is proscribed, then the punishment must separate the sinner forever. Lets look at the two possible scenarios, first, the person would live forever, and be separated for that time. In this case the terms of the punishment,( That the sinner would be separated from God forever) are met. Second scenario, the sinner perishes, and ceases to exist. in this scenario, the terms of the punishment are also met, since the sinner is eternally separated from God.

If separation from God were the sole function of hell, then you might be right. Unfortunately, the Bible makes it very clear that hell is the expression of God's wrath upon the wicked. It isn't simply intended to keep the wicked to themselves or remove them from all existence, but to unleash God's anger upon them. God intends, through the sentence of hell, to punish, to make very "miserable," those who have despised His sovereignty, His love and His mercy.

Selah.

 

[razeontherock]

Is there one paticular belief in what hell is supposed to be or is it all theory. I'm asking becaue I've heard different beliefs in what hell is. I've heard the eternal hellfire and torment, I've also heard that some think hell is just being isolated away from God (aren't we separated from him already?). I've also heard that some believe there is no hell, which I'm not sure i like the idea of Hitler hanging out with mother Theresa lol. :o

I dont know how denominations differ between belief in hell, but any insight is good

Watch what you ask for - you might just get it.

Jesus spoke about hell more than about heaven, and more than anyone else in the Bible. (Sorry I haven't read the whole thread and I HOPE someone else has pointed this out but it bears repeating.) His words take priority, IMHO.

I've seen hell, you might read my brief testimony in my profile. At least one person I know of had a "ministry" of actually going to hell, most likely in a series of visions rather than physical presence but they aren't sure, and wrote a book about it. This isn't the sort of "gift" I would want! I made the mistake of reading that book too fast, too much all at once, and suffered tremendously for it. A chapter a week would've been as much of that as I could've tolerated in my "diet."

I could discuss specific things I KNOW to be true, but the main point is "righteous and true are they judgments, O Lord!" It is AMAZING how truly just God is!! And wise. And extreme. "Behold the goodness and severity of God." Yeah, the severity refers to hell. VERY real and literal, as much as all of us might wish it weren't so.

 

[RediGrace]

Even the conservative teaching is that the fire and brimstone are not necessarily literal - but the eternal aspect of it is. Thus, what we do know is that it's a horrible place that you cannot escape or be released from.

Now, it is a result of being completely separated from God. We are not completely separated from God here and now. We can still pray to him, ask his forgiveness, and he will listen. We still see glimpses of his original creation which was "very good" and still points to him as Creator. We get at least some of God's grace radiated to us that way. But not so in Hell. What God gives us now will be absent, and my idea of describing it would be like being flushed into outer space without a space suit. The vacuum that is missing what we have now will be at least that painful and harmful.

So what your saying (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that hell is not physical punishment, but spiritual. I can understand that thinking since the body/flesh is dead on earth and the soul is to be judged. Maybe because I was interpreting what people were saying as physical torment, and I couldn't understand how you could be physically tormented if the body is dead.

 

[Sketcher]

So what your saying (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that hell is not physical punishment, but spiritual. I can understand that thinking since the body/flesh is dead on earth and the soul is to be judged. Maybe because I was interpreting what people were saying as physical torment, and I couldn't understand how you could be physically tormented if the body is dead.

Something like that. When Christ returns and we Christians rise from the dead, we will be granted new "spiritual bodies" for life in Heaven. Since those who rejected Christ will also rise, and they will not be joining us in Heaven, it makes sense that they would also receive new bodies. But Scripture isn't very specific on what they get other than pain. I imagine that the torment in Hell will be just as physical and spiritual as the pleasures of Heaven.

"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned." - John 5:28-29

"I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." - 1 Corinthians 15:50-53

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'" - Matthew 25:41*

* This indicates that whatever the physical/spiritual state of the condemned person, it is clearly a hostile environment. Our eternities were meant to be with God in Heaven, rather than to be punished with the evil, rebellious demons. Any "new body" that the condemned receives will certainly reflect that!

 

[seashale76]

God is Love and His presence is like fire. How one endures this fire has everything to do with how they were tempered in this life, just like the three righteous youths in the fiery furnace were able to joyfully walk around unharmed in the fire, so did others who didn't love God perish just being near the fire. The fire didn't change.

Here is a quote from an old Wikipedia article on the topic (that doesn’t seem to be around anymore) that I thought explained it pretty well: "For many ancient Christians, Hell was the same "place" as Heaven: living in the presence of God and directly experiencing God's love. Whether this was experienced as pleasure or torment depended on one's disposition towards God. St. Isaac of Syria wrote in Mystic Treatises: "... those who find themselves in Hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!" This ancient view is still the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church."

 

[Emmy]

Dear RediGrace. Heaven is with God, and hell is without God`Love.To be with God is to be with God, in His Kingdom with many Mansions, where Love is and eternal Bliss. Hell is without God`s Love and Light, it is a place in Outer Darkness, where there can be heard loud wailing and gnashing of teeth: because there, the unfortunate souls realise the grave mistake they made, by not accepting our all-loving Heavenly Father. God is waiting for us to Repent, to exchange our selfish and unloving character INTO loving God with all our hearts, and with all our souls, and with all our minds. Also loving our neighbour, all others, friend or foe, as we love ourselves. Jesus died that we might live, Jesus reconciled us to God, Jesus is our Saviour, and Jesus is the Way back to God, our original home. Therefore hell is without God`s Love and God`s Light. As for Satan`s abode, which is also called Hell, it is a place without God`s Love completely. Satan cannot stand or bear anything to do with love. Satan and his followers stay away from Love, it is abhorrent/detestable for all satanic beings. Love/Agape is the great divider, all for God, and NO love for all satanic beings. I say this humbly and with love, RediGrace. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[Yab Yum]

twisted and ebia are spot on IMHO. My 2 cents - I believe along with Karl Barth that we may legitimately hope that God will save all people, even the worst, and that Hell may perhaps be empty.

 

[razeontherock]

God certainly wants hell to be empty of people, and this is what will bring Him the most glory! It's what the great commission is all about.