What is "hell"?

[angelmom01]

Yes, Jesus is the Savior of the world.....every person in his order:

(1 Cor 15:22 KJV) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The kingdom of heaven is an exclusive group...it currently does not contain those of the outside world. We are an exclusive group first chosen out of the world:

I am not saying otherwise; however God created a NEW HEAVENS and a NEW EARTH by bringing in the Gentiles. In so doing, it seems to me that all were “dragged in” but those without a wedding garment are “cast out” (into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth). And “coming down from heaven” (the NEW HEAVENS) is Jerusalem, that great city in which there is NO NIGHT (the THIRD heaven, the paradise of God, in which we find THE TREE OF LIFE).

(1 Pet 2:9 KJV) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

The field is the world:

Amen and the “world” is “the earth” = “hell beneath” (as opposed to “the heavens” = life above)

(Mat 13:38 KJV) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Those "sinners of the world" already suffer the judgment....we were all children of wrath....we were all spiritually dead....in Adam all are dead. The "dead" do not know God spiritually....they know of Him. There is no where to go but into life in Christ....to be resurrected....in this age or the next. Only the tares get thrown into the fire.....not the field....not the world...not the spiritually dead:

The tares ARE “the children of the wicked one”. If the children of the wicked one are not those who are “spiritually dead”, then who are they?

And if you believe that they “already suffer the judgment”, then what do you think is “coming” in the way of judgment?

The tares (the children of the wicked one) are gathered TO BE BURNED. And they are gathered “out of the field, which is “the world”, and “out of the kingdom”. They are gathered BY MEN and “cast out” of the kingdom, which means (just like the wedding guests and the fish in the nets) that they (the “bad”) were “dragged in” along with the “good”.

There is not only a field/world application to this as it relates to “all men”; but there is an internal application to this as well, as it relates to “each man”. The kingdom of God is WITHIN. We all have “hay, wood and stubble” (tares) that needs to be burned (so that the wheat can shine forth). And though we may “suffer loss” we, ourselves, are saved “yet so as by fire”.

Jesus Christ is THE resurrection and THE life.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

God judges the "living" and the "dead".....accordingly.

Of course; I have not said otherwise.

The "tares" are calling themselves Christians (the "living").....they are in our gatherings....they profess to know God....they have secretly crept into our assemblies without notice. They have led people astray under their government.....the "kingdom of heaven" refers to the government of those of the body of Christ. Jesus is as a man who took a far journey and left people in charge of the kingdom:

(Mark 13:34 KJV) For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

Of course Christ is that man.

Why do I get the impression that you don’t think that I understand “any” of this?

But there were those who lorded it over those underneath.....they began to "beat" those underneath them. The "tares" are those who do iniquity.....they have taught the church to sin.....the "tares" are also those doctrines that cause sin....nets that catch people. While they should have been feeding the body of Christ, they haven't been......only they feed themselves. They are the son of perdition.....they have been chosen just like Judas....but are really of the wicked one:

Yet you don't thinkthat “the spiritually dead” are cast into the lake of fire? You seem to equate the spiritually dead with "the tares" who are the children of the wicked one.

(John 6:70 KJV) Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Only the son of perdition will be lost....not the billions of the world who have never known God spiritually.

Who do you think “the son of perdition” is? It is “the wicked one” that must be “revealed” and for that to happen there must first be “a falling away”.

(John 17:12 KJV) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Who are the enemies? Are they not of the Lord's own house?

(Micah 7:6 KJV) For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house.



Wasn't Cain a brother to Abel? Wasn't Esau a brother to Jacob? Weren't Korah, Dathan, and Abiram members of the same congregation?

Yes, and both Cain and Esau were “types” of “the natural man”, “the first man” (the first born).

Numbers 16: 21 Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.
22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?
23 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
24 Speak unto the congregation, saying, Get you up from about the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram.

We are to leave their gatherings....their leadership....so as not to suffer their judgment of wrath and indignation....as an enemy of God. We are given the opportunity to "wake" up and leave Babylon. Those who choose to stay behind....enjoying the works of darkness...will be blotted out of the book of Life.....to be left in outer darkness:

I thought we were talking about hell?

(Rev 22:15 KJV) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Regarding the wicked leaders.....We will never again be struck with the sun....with their heat....with their drought....nor will we hunger or thirst any longer under their care....for the Lord Himself will be our light and provider:

(Isa 49:10 KJV) They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.

(Rev 22:5 KJV) And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Their "sun" will go down.....their works are darkness....the moon turned to darkness....their works are those of "violence".....the moon turned to "blood". They care not for those of the body of Christ They are the "powers of heave" that will be shaken......they are the stars that will fall. They are the spiritual rulers in high places....they will lose their position and inheritance. They have established their rule by spiritual "violence"....they lack love....and the lack of love is the last straw...they are the man of sin....just like Cain....they hated their brothers. The early world was destroyed because of the violence done to each other:

And aren’t the “stars” and the “clouds” (etc) those thing which exist “in the heavens”? (Though there be “wandering stars” and “clouds without rain”, etc)? They can not be “shaken from heaven” if they are not “in” the heavens.

(Gen 6:13 KJV) And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

The judgment of Gehenna came on the Jewish people.....they hated their brother, Jesus their Messiah. Jesus warned us about the increase in wickedness...that the love of most would grow cold....in the "church." This is a major sign that the end is almost here. We are to love God and love each other....that is fulfilling of the entire law.

We are to overcome.

Amen, as he who OVERCOMES is given right to the Tree of Life. AMEN!!

Jesus Christ came “in the end of the world”; therefore “the end of the world” (which is also when the harvest takes place and his angels are sent to reap) is already upon us.

You say that the Jews have already faced the judgment of Gehenna. I agree. So what then is the lake of Fire if not the judgment of Gehanna?

 

[DesertScroll]

I am not responding to the first part of the post (unless you have a question you would like answered) as I was just referring to the Rev 14 passages talked about previously as an example.

As for the two passages:

I would agree. But I would also like to point out that not all “Christians” are “born again”
I would partly agree. I agree that they have been sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise and have been given “the earnest of the spirit”, but unless they have received “the adoption of sons” they are still waiting on having Christ formed in them (which is the hope of glory).
Yes, though I am sure that not who received the letter were "babes".
AMEN, but Paul did not COUNT HIMSELF to have apprehended unto the resurrection of the dead. He “followed after” not “as though” he HAD ALREADY attained or were ALREADY perfect. He tells us to walk by the same “rule”, right? (Refer to Job 9:20 for the possible reason.)
Paul is addressing those who are awaiting the adoption of sons, not those who have “already attained” and I would guess that those who were more “mature” (having “gone on unto perfection”) knew this. And I am sure that they walked by the same rule as Paul.

So if I have this correct, Paul who even though he is not a babe, relates himself as one when he is speaking to babes. So as not to offend. If this is correct, then I will keep that in mind.

On 1 Thess 4:13-18

#1

I see “the dead in Christ” as those who are alive physically, but dead spiritually. They have been baptized into Christ death but not resurrected into His life. So they are “asleep”; those who “sleep” sleep AT NIGHT.

-So this verse (v.13) is not speaking of the physically dead? What about 5:10 where it says "that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him". The 'we are' seems to be the same language used in v.5 "for you are all sons of light...We are not of day" v.6 "let us not sleep as others do" v.8 "since we are of the day" versus "they are saying, 'Peace and safety!' then destruction" v.3 "For those who sleep do their sleeping at night" v.7.
The language use would seem to indicate that the awake or asleep in v.10 is being referenced to the sons of light.
-Also this verse is very remanisant of Php 1:21-24:
For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

#2

Those who are alive both spiritually and physically when Christ comes to collect ALL (both the “dead” and the “living”) who “remain”.

Now if I understand you correctly, if we relate this back to John 5:28 "in which all who are in the tombs shall hear his voice" the 'all' here is still only the spiritually dead as those who are alive in 1 Thess 4:15 are covered in John 5:25.

#3

At the time of harvest, the TARES are gathered FIRST according to Christ (matt 13:30). Therefore, it makes perfect sense that Paul would say that those who are alive will not prevent those who are “asleep”, for “the dead” in Christ shall rise FIRST.

I'll put this in with #5 below to be more complete.

#4

The verse is talking about those who “remain” (both the living and the dead) and has nothing to do with those who “come with him” as I understand that verse, as I believe he is just saying that Christ will “bring them (those who sleep) with him” (back to God).

Bring them 'with' him is equivalent in this passage to bring them 'to' him? Is there any other example in scripture where you would make this claim? If there is please post it.

#5

It is speaking about Christ coming to gather ALL who “remain” (both the dead and the living, the tares and the wheat). You see this as His “second coming”. But I see His “second” coming as the coming of the Holy Spirit.

So based on your answer in #3 and #4 the spiritually dead are gathered first, before those who are spiritually alive.
Now as I understand your view, in this event described in 1 Thess 4 is not an actual catching up in the sky, not literally (physically) being with Jesus in the clouds that bring rain. But that it is a spiritual description of all who remain being gathered, in Christ, by the Spirit. All being adopted. If I am incorrect please elaborate on your view.
Now if this is your view can you explain how out of those who remain the spiritually dead can be gathered first, before those that are spiritually alive? Since being spiritually alive would necessitate being already gathered, as they would have already gone on unto perfection.
Of course if this is not your view this is moot.

 

[angelmom01]

So if I have this correct, Paul who even though he is not a babe, relates himself as one when he is speaking to babes. So as not to offend. If this is correct, then I will keep that in mind.

I don’t know that I would say that he did so “as not to offend” but “as an example”. He counted it not and continued to endure to the end, as that is what we are supposed to do right? “Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall”, right? We are not to bear witness of ourselves. (John 5:31)

On 1 Thess 4:13-18

#1
-So this verse (v.13) is not speaking of the physically dead? What about 5:10 where it says "that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him". The 'we are' seems to be the same language used in v.5 "for you are all sons of light...We are not of day" v.6 "let us not sleep as others do" v.8 "since we are of the day" versus "they are saying, 'Peace and safety!' then destruction" v.3 "For those who sleep do their sleeping at night" v.7.
The language use would seem to indicate that the awake or asleep in v.10 is being referenced to the sons of light.

No, I do not believe that this is talking about the physically dead and 1 Thess 5:10 is also about those who are spiritually dead (asleep), as I see it. When Paul compares those who “sons of the day” and tell them to NOT SLEEP as do others, don’t you think that he is referring to people who are alive physically (but “asleep” spiritually)? Yes, he is telling them that they are “son of light” (etc) because that is what we are CALLED to be. And he is telling us that very thing. We are “sons of the light” (after a spiritual truth) SO DON’T “sleep as do others”. The problem is that those who DO SLEEP, sleep AT NIGHT (in darkness), right> So while we are told to “be sober” and “watch” (because we haven’t really yet passed from death unto life until “His appearing”) we can’t. Were Christ’s disciples able to “keep watch” for even one hour? Still we are told to DO SO.

-Also this verse is very remanisant of Php 1:21-24:
For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

Paul is speaking there of his physical condition and being torn between his desire to depart (die) and be with the Lord and his desire to remain (for them) in the flesh. Though I suppose that there could also be a spiritual application to that as well as I believe that when Paul speaks about being “absent from the body and being present with the Lord” and being “at home in the body and absent from the Lord” is after a spiritual truth (not a physical one). But I do think that he is speaking about his physical departure in those verses.

Now if I understand you correctly, if we relate this back to John 5:28 "in which all who are in the tombs shall hear his voice" the 'all' here is still only the spiritually dead as those who are alive in 1 Thess 4:15 are covered in John 5:25.

The “all” who are in their graves refers to “all men” because “if one died fro all then were ALL DEAD”. The entire passage is about the spiritually dead:

John 5:25-29 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead (the soul that sinneth it shall DIE) shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live (be resurrected, after a spiritual truth – be reconciled to God through Christ and the cross). For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all (ALL MEN) that are in the graves (the body of this death) shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Those who come forth unto the resurrection of LIFE are those who pass from death unto life having ETERNAL LIFE (Christ) abiding IN THEM.


Those who come forth unto a resurrection of damnation are those who, though they were reconciled to God through Christ, do not have a wedding garment. They are bound hand and foot and cast out into outer darkness (etc). They are “asleep” (spiritually “dead”). They are “twice dead”. And the wrath of God abides on them.

Bring them 'with' him is equivalent in this passage to bring them 'to' him? Is there any other example in scripture where you would make this claim? If there is please post it.

They are not brought “to” Christ and He is the one coming to “get” them. But Christ shall “bring them WITH HIM” (to wherever it is He takes us when He comes to gather us).

So based on your answer in #3 and #4 the spiritually dead are gathered first, before those who are spiritually alive.

Yes, because that is what Christ said would happen. The tares are harvested FIRST.

Now as I understand your view, in this event described in 1 Thess 4 is not an actual catching up in the sky, not literally (physically) being with Jesus in the clouds that bring rain. But that it is a spiritual description of all who remain being gathered, in Christ, by the Spirit. All being adopted. If I am incorrect please elaborate on your view.

Yes, and no. I see this as the “finale” so to speak, the consummation of all things. When all who are still here (who remain physically) are gathered to the Father and our final resting place in eternity with God. How that happens, I don’t know exactly, but it does say that we are “caught up” with him in the clouds. The “dead” are raised incorruptible and “we are changed”. Could very well be a physical appearing; I don’t know. I just know that seems to be quite “sudden”, as it doesn’t even say that Christ comes “into the world” just that we are caught up with him in the air/clouds”.

Now if this is your view can you explain how out of those who remain the spiritually dead can be gathered first, before those that are spiritually alive?

What do you mean by “how”? Just as one is gathered, so it the other. And Christ said it would be the tares who would be harvested first. I'm nto sure I understand your question? Maybe you could rephrase it if I misunderstood.

Since being spiritually alive would necessitate being already gathered, as they would have already gone on unto perfection.

Yes, but only spiritually (in the spirit). They are still in the flesh on this earth, right? So long as they are physically alive?

 

[Wheeler]

The tares are definitely the children of the wicked one....they are the "wicked" within the kingdom of heaven. Simply put, they are "Christians"....not of the spiritually "dead" of the world. The Greek word for "wicked" is "poneros" which means "hurtful.....full of labors, hardships".....they are the ones in the churches who burden us with false doctrines and sin.....they do not feed us spiritually....they are cruel taskmasters. Those of the outside world do not make us labor in these ways....they are not hurtful...generally. The "wicked" compass the wheat (the righteous):

(Hab 1:4 KJV) Therefore the law is slacked, and judgment doth never go forth: for the wicked doth compass about the righteous; therefore wrong judgment proceedeth.

(Psa 17:9 KJV) From the wicked that oppress me, from my deadly enemies, who compass me about.

The "wicked" lay snares for the body of Christ...the outside world does not seek to deceive the church...in fact they are more honest about their situation:

(Psa 119:110 KJV) The wicked have laid a snare for me: yet I erred not from thy precepts.

The "wicked" have persecuted the spiritually poor of the flock:

(Psa 10:2 KJV) The wicked in his pride doth persecute the poor: let them be taken in the devices that they have imagined.

The "wicked" came to devour the church:

(Psa 27:2 KJV) When the wicked, even mine enemies and my foes, came upon me to eat up my flesh, they stumbled and fell.

As soon as the "wicked" are born again into the kingdom of heaven, they go astray immediately and speak false things in order to deceive:

(Psa 58:3 KJV) The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

They don't stay clean even though they had been washed from their sins...the sow stays a sow and goes back to the mud (sin) after being washed...and never repents:

(2 Pet 2:22 KJV) But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

They are never purged even with discipline...they are rejected silver that never comes clean in the refiner's fire:

Jeremiah 6: 29 The bellows are burned, the lead is consumed of the fire; the founder melteth in vain: for the wicked are not plucked away.
30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them.

The wicked profess they know God....but their own works of darkness deny him:

(Titus 1:16 KJV) They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

At the harvest, the full truth of the matter comes forth...the knowledge of the truth is presented (revelation) and the wheat recognize it and cleanse themselves...the tares reject the truth...they take a stand against it:

(2 Tim 3:8 KJV) Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
It would be better if they had not known the truth than to reject it after hearing it....they would have been better off being "spiritually dead" in the world than to be in the kingdom of heaven and rejecting the truth. And it is those "wicked" at the end of the age that refuse the knowledge of the truth and never come clean that are to be cast into the lake of fire as their judgment...they have once and for all proven themselves to be enemies of God by rejecting His full revealed knowledge of the truth. The sin of the "wicked" is full grown...they are at their height of pride and sin at the end of the age....their fruit is ripe for the winepress. It is the end-of-the-age wicked that will be cut off from the Lord and his people and cast into the lake of fire for punishment of their sins....for there will be no more sacrifice for sins when the wicked continue in their ways AFTER receiving the FULL knowledge of the truth:

Hebrews 10: 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

We, the church, have been in sin....ignorantly...we need someone to declare to us our sins:

(Micah 3:8 KJV) But truly I am full of power by the spirit of the LORD, and of judgment, and of might, to declare unto Jacob his transgression, and to Israel his sin.

Once we know the truth of our situation, we can return to the Lord and He will heal us:

(Jer 4:1 KJV) If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the LORD, return unto me: and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight, then shalt thou not remove.

The "wicked" also have the chance to return. We are His heritage....He pardons our sins:

Micah 7: 18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.
19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.

But the rebellious "wicked" who take a stand against the truth will be cast into the lake of fire....they lose all rewards....but will have their part in the lake of fire:

(Rev 21:8 KJV) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The "murderers"....those who say they know God but hate their brothers.
The "liars".....those who say they know God but do not follow His commandments.
The "idolaters".....those who covet and seek to make others merchandise.

All these things....God gives them over to a "reprobate" mind to be FILLED with all unrighteousness because they did NOT LIKE to retain GOD IN FULL KNOWLEDGE (Greek: epignosis):

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

For there will be no peace for the wicked:

(Isa 48:22 KJV) There is no peace, saith the LORD, unto the wicked.

Isaiah 57: 18 I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.
19 I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.
20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.
21 There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked.

The wicked will be "tormented" by extreme wickedness (given over to a reprobate mind...with no repentance and sacrifice left)...they will have no rest day or night from it....they will be devoured by it. For wickedness burns as the fire....and the wrath of the Lord will be upon them...and their land will be darkened....in outer darkness.

Isaiah 9:18 For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke.
19 Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother.

But all those in the church who went astray (who went through the wide gate of ruin) before the revelation of the full knowledge of the truth, their sins will be forgiven:

Mark 3: 28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

All those leaders who taught the flock to sin during the trial by Satan will be called least in the kingdom of heaven:

(Mat 5:19 KJV) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.



They will be saved but as through fire....their works will be burnt up. They shall bear their sins:

Ezekiel 44: 10 And the Levites that are gone away far from me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity.

YET.....they shall have charge at the gates of the house...for they will be saved...yet be called the LEAST in the kingdom (government) of heaven:

11 Yet they shall be ministers in my sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.

YET......they lose their full inheritance because of their sins:

12 Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and caused the house of Israel to fall into iniquity; therefore have I lifted up mine hand against them, saith the Lord GOD, and they shall bear their iniquity.
13 And they shall not come near unto me, to do the office of a priest unto me, nor to come near to any of my holy things, in the most holy place: but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed.

I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of the Lord than dwell in the tents of the wicked:

(Psa 84:10 KJV) For a day in thy courts is better than a thousand. I had rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God, than to dwell in the tents of wickedness.

 

[squint]

Wheeler had a good thing going til he fell onto just and yet another blame game on his fellow man.

so predictable, yet so so close.

It's always interesting how easy it is to pin the tail on your fellow man, yet continually and utterly fail to render into the equations of sin, judgment, condemnation and damnation...

the devil and his messengers.

Y'all would do yourselves and your fellow mankind a very big favor by moving OFF of them and onto the temporal causes for these things.

enjoy!

squint

 

[angelmom01]

Hi Wheeler,

So you see a difference between “the wicked” and the “spiritually dead”? Interesting!!

It’s always seemed to me that you are either “alive” (which is “to know God” and have eternal life abiding in you) or you are “dead” (having “no life” in you, abiding “in death”). Certainly of those who “know not God” some can be more (or less) “wicked” than others. But if the field is the world and there are only wheat and tares growing in the field (and God separates the sheep and the goats) etc then there are only two categories of people, those who are “alive” and those who are “dead” (wheat/tares; sheep/goats; etc).

Paul even tells us to not sleep as do others. Although he judges only those "within" while God judges those "without". So I am not sure, as I have never approached it from that angle.

As far as judgment and the lake of fire go… where/when do you see God’s judgments? Is that something that you see as yet future? And do you see the Lake of Fire as the “eternal” fate for the wicked? And what is the fate of those who are “spiritually dead”?

 

[Wheeler]

Hi Angelmom01,

Thanks for reading....and the discussion. I realize when I read back that I might seem a little crazy....but I am really a sane guy.

I do see a difference between the "wicked" and the "spiritually dead".....you summarized it beautifully. I've been trying to say that in the most long-winded way...thanks!

We have the "spiritually dead".....those of the world who have never been drawn to Christ. Jesus said, as you know, that no one can come to him except the Father draw him:

(John 6:44 KJV) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus said let the dead bury the dead....this is as "dead" as you can get.....having only the worldly mind.

(Mat 8:22 KJV) But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

If the Father never draws that person's heart, they have never had the opportunity for the spiritual law written on their hearts and minds. The Lord has mercy on whom He wants:

(Rom 9:18 KJV) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Then we have the "living"...those that have been drawn to Christ. Yet some or much of the "living" have fallen ASLEEP. The "sleep" is like a "death". The body is sick and weak:

(1 Cor 11:29 KJV) For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

We had been warned not to go to "sleep"....because that is the time where Satan took the opportunity to test the church....tribulation:

Luke 22: 45 And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,
46 And said unto them, Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.

Psalms 13: 3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
4 Lest mine enemy say, I have prevailed against him; and those that trouble me rejoice when I am moved.

That is when Satan's messengers.....MEN....come into the kingdom of heaven posing as ministers of righteousness....their works are of darkness while they claim it is God's work in order to deceive:

(2 Cor 11:13 KJV) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

But Christ comes to "awaken" the church who has fallen "asleep"....in a type of "death.....there are those who have never fallen asleep but steered clear of the messengers of Satan:

(1 Th 5:5 KJV) Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The church needs to "wake" and put on Christ:

Romans13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

I see the lake of fire still in the future....as the FULL KNOWLEDGE of the truth has not been revealed.....but I see it coming as a cloud on the horizon to rain on the parched ground of the church....it won't be long before we know all things...the hidden knowledge completely revealed...which some accept and others take a stand against it to their own detriment....they reject their own mercy because they love the works of darkness more.

 

[angelmom01]

Wheeler had a good thing going til he fell onto just and yet another blame game on his fellow man.

so predictable, yet so so close.

It's always interesting how easy it is to pin the tail on your fellow man, yet continually and utterly fail to render into the equations of sin, judgment, condemnation and damnation...

the devil and his messengers.

Y'all would do yourselves and your fellow mankind a very big favor by moving OFF of them and onto the temporal causes for these things.

enjoy!

squint

Squint, you are accusing others of accusing mankind and in so doing you (seem to) deny that MEN are accountable for their sins. If God holds us accountable then why do you seem to say that we are not?

You want to blame “the devil” and hold “him” accountable when the truth is that we (men) are BY NATURE the children of wrath. God has to give us A NEW HEART (for the heart is “desperately wicked&#8221 and a NEW SPIRIT.

No one here is denying judgment and punishment and damnation. We just do not share the same beliefs of what that “is”.

Some believe that most of mankind will be sent to be barbequed forever. Some believe that hell (or the lake of fire) is not literal fire but simply separation from God for all eternity. Some believe that the lake of fire is a place of temporary chastisement but that all who “go in” will eventually “come out”.

What I am looking at is “when” and “how” does this punishment/judgment take place, as scripture tells us that the righteous (and much more the wicked and sinner) are recompensed IN THE EARTH. That we are recompensed AT THE RESURRECTION OF THE JUST and that there is resurrection of BOTH the just and the unjust – some come forth in the resurrection UNTO LIFE and the other UNTO DAMNATION.

Most (including myself up until recently) connected these things with events that have not yet taken place and are to be “the end result” of mankind. I am beginning to see that differently given the words of Christ about the end of the world and the harvest and the words of John who said that these things were to “shortly” come to pass.

God came out of his place to punish THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH. Christ said “It is finished” AT THE CROSS.

So it is a matter of determining what the lake of fire is and when it happens and who has “their part” in it (the second death) and “to what end”. Nowhere are we told that believers have nothing to do with the second death; only that they are “not hurt” by it. And if we look at Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, we know that they were “not hurt” by the fire – though they were cast into the fire. We are asked “Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?”

Or God is “a consuming fire” (same word). And those things that ARE NOT SEEN are “eternal” (aionios). My understanding of scripture does not lead me to believe that “aionios” means “eternal” (in the sense of being endless or without end). But those things that are “eternal” pertain to those things that are “spiritual” and which are “not seen” (and are going on right now).

As Christ saved us and called (etc) BEFORE THE AIONIOS BEGAN.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world (aionios) began,​

Therefore the “aionios” have A BEGINNING. We also know that the “aion” [age(s)] END.

Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world (aion); and the reapers are the angels.​

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world (aion): the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,​

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world (aion)?​

Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world (aion). Amen.​

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world (kosmos): but now once in the end of the world (aion) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.​

Notice in the last verse that the second “world” is not talking about the “kosmos” but about the “aion”.

We are chosen IN A FURNACE OF AFFLICTION. The HEAVENS are His throne and THE EARTH is His footstool and we know that HIS FEET are “like unto fine brass, AS IF THEY BURNED IN A FURNACE”

There are spiritual connections between that which is ABOVE (the heavens, life) and NOT OF THIS WORLD and that which is BENEATH (the earth, death, hell) and OF THE WORLD.

There is a spiritual connection between THE THOUSAND YEARS (ONE DAY to the Lord) and THE NIGHT and THE DAY; YESTERDAY and TODAY.

There is spiritual difference between A CHILD and A SON (and “the ages&#8221.

The scriptures are given to us because they testify OF CHRIST, of ETERNAL LIFE. We are to lay hold OF HIM, who is OUR LIFE. WE are to come to a knowledge OF GOD.

These things apply to those who are IN THIS WORLD. As we are chosen OUT OF THE WORLD.

 

[Tavita]

Thanks for reading....and the discussion. I realize when I read back that I might seem a little crazy....but I am really a sane guy.

I do see a difference between the "wicked" and the "spiritually dead".....you summarized it beautifully. I've been trying to say that in the most long-winded way...thanks!

We have the "spiritually dead".....those of the world who have never been drawn to Christ. Jesus said, as you know, that no one can come to him except the Father draw him:

(John 6:44 KJV) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus said let the dead bury the dead....this is as "dead" as you can get.....having only the worldly mind.

(Mat 8:22 KJV) But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

If the Father never draws that person's heart, they have never had the opportunity for the spiritual law written on their hearts and minds. The Lord has mercy on whom He wants:

(Rom 9:18 KJV) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Then we have the "living"...those that have been drawn to Christ. Yet some or much of the "living" have fallen ASLEEP. The "sleep" is like a "death". The body is sick and weak:

(1 Cor 11:29 KJV) For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

We had been warned not to go to "sleep"....because that is the time where Satan took the opportunity to test the church....tribulation:

Luke 22: 45 And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,
46 And said unto them, Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.

Psalms 13: 3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
4 Lest mine enemy say, I have prevailed against him; and those that trouble me rejoice when I am moved.

That is when Satan's messengers.....MEN....come into the kingdom of heaven posing as ministers of righteousness....their works are of darkness while they claim it is God's work in order to deceive:

(2 Cor 11:13 KJV) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

But Christ comes to "awaken" the church who has fallen "asleep"....in a type of "death.....there are those who have never fallen asleep but steered clear of the messengers of Satan:

(1 Th 5:5 KJV) Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The church needs to "wake" and put on Christ:

Romans13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

I see the lake of fire still in the future....as the FULL KNOWLEDGE of the truth has not been revealed.....but I see it coming as a cloud on the horizon to rain on the parched ground of the church....it won't be long before we know all things...the hidden knowledge completely revealed...which some accept and others take a stand against it to their own detriment....they reject their own mercy because they love the works of darkness more.

As usual another fantastic post, Wheeler!

And no, you don't come across as crazy!

You do well at putting together all the scattered thoughts I've had over the years.

 

[squint]

Squint, you are accusing others of accusing mankind and in so doing you (seem to) deny that MEN are accountable for their sins. If God holds us accountable then why do you seem to say that we are not?

You continue to misunderstand on many fronts here am.

For example, when did YOU become accountable for being SINLESS to begin with?

Why then do you assume that by "accountability" you can make yourself SINless? Answer is, you couldn't prevent SIN and you cannot ERADICATE sin.

You can however via Word disclosure separate both YOURSELF as Gods offspring AND your fellow man from "COUNTING SINS" against them....

You want to blame “the devil” and hold “him” accountable

Uh, yeah, why NOT? You think God made the devil and placed "it" upon the flesh so you could BLAME AND ACCUSE your fellow man? No.

You are asked to LOVE your fellow man INSPITE of the devils' slaveship of them AND as Gods offspring the DEVIL, his works and his ways can STILL remain under judgment and condemnation...

In other words you can TOTALLY LOVE Gods offspring, all mankind and TOTALLY CONDEMN the devil and his messengers SIMultaneously....

It's a win win deal as far as I can see, at least for your fellow man. And it's a lose lose deal for those things that we ALL should hope are eventually put away BY GOD...

when the truth is that we (men) are BY NATURE the children of wrath. God has to give us A NEW HEART (for the heart is “desperately wicked”) and a NEW SPIRIT.

How you may view that disclosure and how I will view it will be drawn upon in these lines...What people do AS SLAVES makes them performers of sin AS SLAVES...i.e. they still have a SLAVE NATURE but God does not COUNT this slave nature against them NOR does God count the works of the SLAVE MASTERS against them....

And Paul is our very best example of this differentiating in judgment. Paul "knew and understood" just WHY he received from God:

1 Tim. 1:
12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Now don't you find it just a bit ODD that MERCY is dispensed BECAUSE OF "ignorant unbelief?"

Paul finally figured out that he was being USED as a PAWN...because GOD had placed him UNDER the pawn masters. God granted him DIVISION from that working and he figured out that in order to NOT fall again, he couldn't YIELD to them any longer. He had to live unto his REAL SELF which is that of a SON of GOD and NOT as a child of the devil which he WASN'T.

Is that so hard to understand?

No one here is denying judgment and punishment and damnation. We just do not share the same beliefs of what that “is”.

Let's face the facts in these matters.

Most of you will SMEAR mankind as being various forms of DEVIL kind. You will DENY the applicability of the ETERNAL DAMNATION scriptures, and you will grant eternal salvation to THE DEVIL (from the UR camp.)

ETers will make the IDENTICAL mistakes in these matters except they will not grant the devil salvation and will condemn their fellow unbelieving mankind...

And ALL of these idiotic workings are the works of SLAVES....

Sorry to tell ya...I don't blame YOU as Gods child for those false moves, but they are THE MOST TYPICAL in the "churches" down to the very last one.

Some believe that most of mankind will be sent to be barbequed forever. Some believe that hell (or the lake of fire) is not literal fire but simply separation from God for all eternity. Some believe that the lake of fire is a place of temporary chastisement but that all who “go in” will eventually “come out”.

And every one of those positions are PATENTYLY FALSE for Gods children. None of them will be separated, tortured, bound, committed, cleansed, thrown in or released from the LAKE OF FIRE. That fate is strictly reserved for the devil and his messengers and I don't have to do contortionist backflips to get there.

ONE entity class, Gods offspring/children (all mankind) are TOTALLY SAVED, right here, right NOW by Gods Continual Hand upon them ALL...

and the other entity class, the DEVIL AND HIS MESSENGERS are totally condemned without remorse or recompense...

And these two classes have been INTENTIONALLY blurred by GOD HIMSELF in this present life. He has OVERLAYED the one upon the other.

But to admit that condition you have to be honest with YOURSELF and finding admittance that not ALL of you is YOU is a very very hard thing to come to grips with "because" of the presence of the resistance that GOD HIMSELF has placed us all WITH.

What I am looking at is “when” and “how” does this punishment/judgment take place, as scripture tells us that the righteous (and much more the wicked and sinner) are recompensed IN THE EARTH. That we are recompensed AT THE RESURRECTION OF THE JUST and that there is resurrection of BOTH the just and the unjust – some come forth in the resurrection UNTO LIFE and the other UNTO DAMNATION.

I've read your's and nearly every other piece of guesswork on this subject on the face of the planet.

None of it makes much sense and MOST of it is written to justify a tiny segment of humanity (primarily the writers of same) and to condemn the balance in various forms. You are no different. You condemn the "unbelieving mankind" and you still HANG sins upon them just like any other group of believers seek to do...

And you will CONTINUALLY ignore the "real cause." That's just the way it is and that is exactly how God intended it to happen. You are then another notch in the belt of His Truth....even when you DON'T GET IT.

Most (including myself up until recently) connected these things with events that have not yet taken place and are to be “the end result” of mankind. I am beginning to see that differently given the words of Christ about the end of the world and the harvest and the words of John who said that these things were to “shortly” come to pass.

I won't get into an eschatological conversation with you at length because it would take MONTHS to unwind your head on these matters.

Suffice it to say that God WILL end this present existance forever. But when is His business. The devil and his messengers are promised a day of wrath and a PERMANENT ending and we, Gods offspring are promised a FINAL release and this entire earth is gonna be TOAST and will be REPLACED by an existence that does not INCLUDE THEM.

And needless to say they ain't too happy about it, so til then, they torture the daylights out of all of us.

God came out of his place to punish THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH. Christ said “It is finished” AT THE CROSS.

Uh, NO, it's NOT. There is still SIN. There is still EVIL. There is still DEATH. God in Christ set NONE of these things aside at the CROSS inspite of your fanciful imaginations.

So

There is no SO. When you start from a faulty premise you have to justify that faulty premise with MORE faulty premises. It's a common fault of people who CAN'T THINK soundly.

it is a matter of determining what the lake of fire is and when it happens and who has “their part” in it (the second death) and “to what end”. Nowhere are we told that believers have nothing to do with the second death; only that they are “not hurt” by it. And if we look at Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, we know that they were “not hurt” by the fire – though they were cast into the fire. We are asked “Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?”

I have argued against the idiocy of URisms view of these matters with the best of 'em and the ones who are honest will acknowledge that they really just DON'T KNOW and CAN'T JUSTIFY their presentations in these matters. One UR preaching gentleman whom I'm sure YOU know has went so far as to say that we should even just stop trying to understand ANY of it because it just brings PROBLEMS...

Well, yeah... it does. And that's what it's INTENDED to bring...to SHOW us what we are ALL bound with...and in that direction I have NO problems bringing SEPARATION...'cause that's what The Word has brought me.

Gods Word does very cleanly and clearly SEPARATE and DIVIDE the "sheep" from the "goats" in such a simplistic fashion that it's FAR beyond any denial from me. Yet the simplicities of these matters will perpetually continue to ESCAPE the eyes of MOST...and I understand WHY that is as well so it doesn't bother me any longer. That's the way God set up His System.

Or God is “a consuming fire” (same word). And those things that ARE NOT SEEN are “eternal” (aionios). My understanding of scripture does not lead me to believe that “aionios” means “eternal” (in the sense of being endless or without end). But those things that are “eternal” pertain to those things that are “spiritual” and which are “not seen” (and are going on right now).

Look, any reasonable approach to the study of FIRE will bring the disclosure that there are MANY TYPES of FIRE, and many types of WORKINGS of those fires...

So to try and make God the same as a LAKE OF FIRE THAT IS PREPARED is and remains preposterous presumption. God doesn't change and He isn't "prepared" or "made." He's still the same God as He Ever Was. He has always LOVED us and HATED the temporal workers of iniquity that He made and fastened us to.

If you understand this, you'd then also understand that it doesn't bother God ONE WHIT to see His Saints depart this place or to even FLOOD it and KILL nearly ALL or to KILL babies etc etc. It's ALL a form of RELEASE from this PRESENT HELL for us....His Offspring, and in this light I am not required to provide pollyanna "excuses" for God and the reality of this present life.

As Christ saved us and called (etc) BEFORE THE AIONIOS BEGAN.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world (aionios) began,​

Therefore the “aionios” have A BEGINNING. We also know that the “aion” [age(s)] END.

And if "we" are All His "genos" "offspring" we were "in His Loins" so to speak before we ever arrived here.

But Dad has a few things for us to learn about MERCY, LOVE, FAITH...etc...and those things are learned via a first hand example by SUFFERING and VULNERABILITY...

enjoy!

squint

 

[angelmom01]

Hi Angelmom01,

Thanks for reading....and the discussion. I realize when I read back that I might seem a little crazy....but I am really a sane guy.

I do see a difference between the "wicked" and the "spiritually dead".....you summarized it beautifully. I've been trying to say that in the most long-winded way...thanks!

We have the "spiritually dead".....those of the world who have never been drawn to Christ. Jesus said, as you know, that no one can come to him except the Father draw him:

(John 6:44 KJV) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus said let the dead bury the dead....this is as "dead" as you can get.....having only the worldly mind.

(Mat 8:22 KJV) But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

If the Father never draws that person's heart, they have never had the opportunity for the spiritual law written on their hearts and minds. The Lord has mercy on whom He wants:

(Rom 9:18 KJV) Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Then we have the "living"...those that have been drawn to Christ. Yet some or much of the "living" have fallen ASLEEP. The "sleep" is like a "death". The body is sick and weak:

(1 Cor 11:29 KJV) For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

We had been warned not to go to "sleep"....because that is the time where Satan took the opportunity to test the church....tribulation:

Luke 22: 45 And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,
46 And said unto them, Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.

Psalms 13: 3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
4 Lest mine enemy say, I have prevailed against him; and those that trouble me rejoice when I am moved.

That is when Satan's messengers.....MEN....come into the kingdom of heaven posing as ministers of righteousness....their works are of darkness while they claim it is God's work in order to deceive:

(2 Cor 11:13 KJV) For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

But Christ comes to "awaken" the church who has fallen "asleep"....in a type of "death.....there are those who have never fallen asleep but steered clear of the messengers of Satan:

(1 Th 5:5 KJV) Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

The church needs to "wake" and put on Christ:

Romans13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

I agree with everything that you have said here (as it relates to those who are “awake” and those who are “asleep” ie “dead”) but I am still not really getting the difference between being “spiritually dead” and being “asleep”.

To me, those two thing are basically equivalent. They do not “know God and Jesus Christ whom He sent”. Therefore they have “no life” in them.

Christ comes to “awake” us (in the same breath to raise us “from the dead”).


Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

I see the lake of fire still in the future....as the FULL KNOWLEDGE of the truth has not been revealed.....but I see it coming as a cloud on the horizon to rain on the parched ground of the church....it won't be long before we know all things...the hidden knowledge completely revealed...which some accept and others take a stand against it to their own detriment....they reject their own mercy because they love the works of darkness more

Absolutely, but then did they ever really “know God” to begin with?

There are only two men in scripture (as a spiritual truth), THE NATURAL MAN (the first man, Adam) and THE SPIRITUAL MAN (the second man, LAST man, Jesus Christ, the Lord from heaven).

The second man IS the Lord from heaven… ONE NEW MAN created IN Christ Jesus, as I see it. So I see that we are all found “in Christ” (both the “living” and the “dead”, as He is Lord of BOTH, right?).

That is why our LIFE is HID with Christ in God and it is not until HE (who is our life) shall appear (IN US) that we shall appear with Him IN GLORY. Christ IN YOU, the hope OF GLORY.

Christ is the FIRSTFRUITS of them that slept and blessed and holy is he that hath part in THE FIRST RESURRECTION, He shall not be hurt of THE SECOND DEATH.

It seems to me that the “two deaths” each came through the “two men”. The first death came THROUGH ADAM (the soul that sinneth it shall die) and the second death comes through the second man, Jesus Christ. We are ALL baptized into HIS DEATH so that we can be resurrected into HIS LIFE.

That happened at the cross, yet (as you say) many “fell asleep” and so are TWICE “dead” (plucked up by the roots). They are those who “are” hurt by the second death; they are cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (the lake of fire), where “the worm dieth not” and “the fire is not quenched”. (Where “the angels which kept not their first estate” are “kept” in “everlasting chains UNDER DARKNESS”).

 

[angelmom01]

Squint,

Where did I say that either I or anyone else is “sinless”?

I DO TOTALLY LOVE my fellow man, as God’s offspring, and I do not blame MAN but HIS SINFUL NATURE. That sin that is IN THE FLESH. You want to say that that is something “apart” from man but it is not, it is HIS NATURE, as a NATURAL/EARTHY/FLESHLY MAN.

Paul did not say “it was NEVER ME”. He said it is NO LONGER I.

Because it was no longer walking IN THE FLESH, but IN THE SPIRIT (the INNER MAN, the SPIRITUAL MAN, the REGENERATED MAN, the HIDDEN MAN OF THE HEART).

But so long as we live “in the flesh” the SPIRIT will war against the FLESH, but the flesh will no longer HAVE DOMINION over us.

You call it “the devil” and “Satan” (as it referred to that way in scripture as well) but it is also called THE FLESH and THE NATURAL MAN.

Do I “find it ODD that MERCY is dispensed BECEAUSE OF “ignorant unbelief””?

Not at all, why should I? TRUE JUDGMENT is TO SHOW MERCY AND COMPASSION. To DELIVER him that is spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor. We are to LOVE MERCY. God’s wrath is for A MOMENT; His MERCY ENDURETH FOREVER.

Is it so hard to understand that someone can disagree with how you “divide” something? I agree with much of what you say as it relates to THE SALVATION OF MAN and THE DESTRUCTION of that which has the power of death (Satan, the devil).

I disagree with you that Satan, the devil, is something “separate” and “independent” from man.

So you can accuse me of “smearing mankind” all you want. You will give an account for your words just like the rest of us.

But you can’t even PRETEND to know what I believe or why. Where did I grant salvation to THE DEVIL?

THE FLESH profits NOTHING.

The “two classes” are THE SPIRIT and THE FLESH. It is “they” who are contrary to one another and that WAR against one another. One is DESTROYED and the other is SAVED. As I said before THE FLESH is NOT “God’s offspring”; it is THE SPIRIT that quickens THE FLESH PROFITS NOTHING. The “real” cause of sin is MAN’S SINFUL NATURE.

Of course we were IN HIS LOINS before we ever came here; where do think THE SPIRIT comes from?

As far as the cross is concerned.

The reconciliation of mankind to God took place AT THE CROSS, squint. I never said that we have already seen the end result. So you can carry on with your OWN “accusations” which you so vehemently deny, but they are there for all to see (no matter “who” you say “your” accusations are “directed” towards.)

A "pleasure", as always.

 

[DesertScroll]

This will be my last post for a bit as work is kicking in to seven days a week and we don't have a rotation for days off. But please respond as I am sure I will find time to read a post or two.

I don’t know that I would say that he did so “as not to offend” but “as an example”. He counted it not and continued to endure to the end, as that is what we are supposed to do right? “Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall”, right? We are not to bear witness of ourselves. (John 5:31)

Although I can't agree with you about the what and the why of what Paul was addressing in Rom 8:23 I can agree we should not bear witness of ourselves. We can however boast in the Lord (1 Cor 1:21) as it is him in us, by the Spirit, which is working in and through us (Php 2:12,13).

No, I do not believe that this is talking about the physically dead

I still have to say that this is definately referring to believers who have fallen asleep, as in died physically. I'll post a word study on this at the end of the post (which aslo ties in 1 Cor 15:18). But for now let me say that if this verse was about the spiritually dead we could expect the belivers to grieve over the spiritually dead as in verse 13 as they would not be living in truth. But, we also have the staement in verse 13 "you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope". Why would those people, who do not believe in Jesus, grieve over the spiritually dead? They wouldn't grieve over the spiritually dead, because they would in fact deny that they were spirtually dead at all. So this would have to be something that both groups share in common, that they would both grieve over, and physical bodily death fits the description quite well.
Since I brought up 1 Cor 15:18
"Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished".
When we were discussing the "in Jesus" of 1 Thess 4:14 it seemed that you wanted to refer it to the "will bring with Him" "in Jesus". Almost like saying "will bring with Him" by the power of Jesus. Referring back to 1 Cor 15:18 we have the same type of phrase "in Christ", but one would not want to say those who have fallen asleep by the power of Jesus, as in they are spiritually asleep by the power of Jesus, as it wouldn't even come close to fitting the context. Paul is speaking of these perishing if there is no resurrection, no hope because since they denied the resurrection of the dead they would also have to deny Christ's resurrection from the dead. People who have faith in Jesus and have experienced physical death makes perfect sense here. It is a little extra proof for how the phrase "in Jesus" is used, especially in the context of those who are asleep in Jesus. More on the 1 Thess 4:14 passage when we go over "will bring with".

and 1 Thess 5:10 is also about those who are spiritually dead (asleep), as I see it. When Paul compares those who “sons of the day” and tell them to NOT SLEEP as do others, don’t you think that he is referring to people who are alive physically (but “asleep” spiritually)? Yes, he is telling them that they are “son of light” (etc) because that is what we are CALLED to be. And he is telling us that very thing. We are “sons of the light” (after a spiritual truth) SO DON’T “sleep as do others”. The problem is that those who DO SLEEP, sleep AT NIGHT (in darkness), right>

Now for the 1 Thess 5 passages, yes Paul is speaking about people who are physically alive and does tell the Christians he is writing to, not to sleep as they do.
Now you say "the problem is that those who DO SLEEP, sleep AT NIGHT (in darkness)". But that is not quite the whole issue as they sleep because they are in darkness. "At night" tends to relate a period of time, but there is light now and darkness now. It isn't a period of time only, but also a condition. Jesus is in the world now, by the Spirit and thru his church. Light is still here.

And this is judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil. John 3:19

There are also passages like Rom 13:12 which do speak of the night and day and they do have a sense of periods of time. But it also has a sense of a condition as the day which is near (at hand) is about salvation. (Also see Matt 6:23 for darkness as a condition).

And darkness will always be somewhere as the wicked who are in darkness in this life, and remain in darkness, will be judged and their place will be the outer darkness (Matt 8:12).

So while we are told to “be sober” and “watch” (because we haven’t really yet passed from death unto life until “His appearing”) we can’t. Were Christ’s disciples able to “keep watch” for even one hour? Still we are told to DO SO.

There does seem to be a sleeping (not being aware) which happens. Whether it is the whole church (everyone who believes in Christ) or if some will be watchful for the day of the Lord I am not sure. But, the parable in Matt 25:1-13 is interesting. All began to sleep, but some were prepared and had enough oil while the others did not. And so even though they slept (there was a shout that awoke both groups, which happened before the bridegroom came v.6 and v.10) the ones with enough oil went in with him to the wedding feast.

The “all” who are in their graves refers to “all men” because “if one died fro all then were ALL DEAD”. The entire passage is about the spiritually dead:

John 5:25-29 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead (the soul that sinneth it shall DIE) shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live (be resurrected, after a spiritual truth – be reconciled to God through Christ and the cross). For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all (ALL MEN) that are in the graves (the body of this death) shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Those who come forth unto the resurrection of LIFE are those who pass from death unto life having ETERNAL LIFE (Christ) abiding IN THEM.


Those who come forth unto a resurrection of damnation are those who, though they were reconciled to God through Christ, do not have a wedding garment. They are bound hand and foot and cast out into outer darkness (etc). They are “asleep” (spiritually “dead”). They are “twice dead”. And the wrath of God abides on them.

The problem with referring to "all who are in their tombs" as referrring to all men and their spiritual condition is found in the time frame. "For an hour is coming" is used in relation to the "all who are in their tombs" phrase, it wasn't there yet. In v.25, when speaking of the dead hearing and those who hear will live is "an hour is coming and now is". So in this verse life could be promised in the future and the present, while the verse about the tombs and the resurrection in v.26 was not at the present, but future only. So something between the two is different, as one could be in the present while the other could not.

They are not brought “to” Christ and He is the one coming to “get” them. But Christ shall “bring them WITH HIM” (to wherever it is He takes us when He comes to gather us).

I don't think you will ever be able to explain that one little word (with) in this passage using your framework, as the only mention of his movements are "until his coming" and "will descend from heaven". The passage seems clear from the 'where' it is they are brought from. "God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus" "from heaven" at "His coming". Your framework is almost forcing you to add to the text something which is not there.

Yes, and no. I see this as the “finale” so to speak, the consummation of all things. When all who are still here (who remain physically) are gathered to the Father and our final resting place in eternity with God. How that happens, I don’t know exactly, but it does say that we are “caught up” with him in the clouds. The “dead” are raised incorruptible and “we are changed”. Could very well be a physical appearing; I don’t know. I just know that seems to be quite “sudden”, as it doesn’t even say that Christ comes “into the world” just that we are caught up with him in the air/clouds”.

What do you mean by “how”? Just as one is gathered, so it the other. And Christ said it would be the tares who would be harvested first. I'm nto sure I understand your question? Maybe you could rephrase it if I misunderstood.

Yes, but only spiritually (in the spirit). They are still in the flesh on this earth, right? So long as they are physically alive?

With what you wrote this last time the contradiction wouldn't stand, as I took your equating life/adoption/redemption of the body more strongly than what you wrote here. So no need to rephrase it.

In closing I would ask you to take a close look at what your beliefs are, as this is part of what we hope for. Are hope is Jesus and what he will change us as is part of this hope (1 Cor 15:52) what we eagerly await for (Rom 8:23).

Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we shall be. We know that, when He appears, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him just as He is. 1 John 3:2

We know we shall be like Jesus, but we are not sure exactly what this all entails.
But we also know it can be described as a body:

For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form. Col 2:9

What kind of body we do not know for sure as we only get glimpses of what that entails at the end of the Gospels. And we know that it can change as Jesus had a different appearance (in a different form) when he was with two disciples Mark 16:12 (if you don't mind using the longer ending). But I have also stated that the resurrected body can eat, drink, be touched, appear within locked rooms. But is that its true form, or its only form? We don't know other than it is bodily and it can do those things described above.
Christ is going to reclaim his creation, all that was pronounced "good" at creation (Gen 1:31). And this includes the body of those made in His image.

Now the word study:
(These lists were taken from The Exhaustive Concordance to the Greek New Testament)

Koimao
(Matt) 27:52 28:13 (Luke) 22:45 (John) 11:11 11:12 (Acts) 7:60 12:6 13:36 (1 Cor) 7:39 11:30 15:6 15:18 15:20 15:51 (1 Thess) 4:13 4:14 4:15 (2 Pet) 3:4
This word always refers to the physical body (whether in sleep or death) and not to the soul or spirit (in sleep or death) unless of course we use your interpretation in a few of the passages, which is kind of revealing.

Katheudo
(Matt) 8:24 9:24 13:25 25:5 26:40 26:43 26:45 (Mark) 4:27 4:38 5:39 13:36 14:37 14:40 14:41 (Luke) 8:52 22:46 (Eph) 5:14 (1 Thess) 5:6 5:7 5:10
If you notice the 1 Thess 4 and 5 passages are broken up by the use of these two different words. Koimao is only used in chapter 4 and katheudo is only used in chapter 5. Because of this I have thought quite a bit the last few days about 1 Thess 5:10. Is this a more spiritual truth or a play on the word still meaning physical death. With the evidence of the words I truly do not know at present. Although the word "destined" would play a crucial part in this interpretation. And it is still referring to Christians only as the wording in this passage of the us versus them variety is in full play.

Some other words used for sleep, but not involved in the 1 Thess passages.
Hupnos
(Matt) 1:24 (Luke) 9:32 (John) 11:13 (Acts) 20:9 (Rom 13:11)
The John passage is kind of interesting as it involves koimao versus this more generic word for sleep in Jesus speaking to the disciples about the death of Lazarus and what they took his words to mean.
Aphupnoo
(Luke) 8:23
Nustazo
(Matt) 25:5 (2 Pet) 2:3
There are two others but both of those are for awaken out of sleep/roused out of sleep
Exupnizo
(John) 11:11
Exupnos
(Acts) 16:27

 

[angelmom01]

Although I can't agree with you about the what and the why of what Paul was addressing in Rom 8:23 I can agree we should not bear witness of ourselves. We can however boast in the Lord (1 Cor 1:21) as it is him in us, by the Spirit, which is working in and through us (Php 2:12,13).

I still have to say that this is definately referring to believers who have fallen asleep, as in died physically. I'll post a word study on this at the end of the post (which aslo ties in 1 Cor 15:18). But for now let me say that if this verse was about the spiritually dead we could expect the belivers to grieve over the spiritually dead as in verse 13 as they would not be living in truth. But, we also have the staement in verse 13 "you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope". Why would those people, who do not believe in Jesus, grieve over the spiritually dead? They wouldn't grieve over the spiritually dead, because they would in fact deny that they were spirtually dead at all. So this would have to be something that both groups share in common, that they would both grieve over, and physical bodily death fits the description quite well.

However, it is those who are “dead” who are “sorrowful”. Paul it not telling them not to grieve “for them”. He is telling them not to grieve “as they do”. Look at Christ’s words to His disciples. He told them that they would “be sorrowful”. Why? Because they would be “as a woman whose time is come to be delivered of the child”.

A child differs nothing from a servant; as children we are waiting for the adoption (and manifestation) of sons (for Christ to be formed in us).

Since I brought up 1 Cor 15:18
"Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished".
When we were discussing the "in Jesus" of 1 Thess 4:14 it seemed that you wanted to refer it to the "will bring with Him" "in Jesus". Almost like saying "will bring with Him" by the power of Jesus. Referring back to 1 Cor 15:18 we have the same type of phrase "in Christ", but one would not want to say those who have fallen asleep by the power of Jesus, as in they are spiritually asleep by the power of Jesus, as it wouldn't even come close to fitting the context. Paul is speaking of these perishing if there is no resurrection, no hope because since they denied the resurrection of the dead they would also have to deny Christ's resurrection from the dead. People who have faith in Jesus and have experienced physical death makes perfect sense here. It is a little extra proof for how the phrase "in Jesus" is used, especially in the context of those who are asleep in Jesus. More on the 1 Thess 4:14 passage when we go over "will bring with".

Why would believers worry about other believers who have already gone on to be with the Lord?

Now for the 1 Thess 5 passages, yes Paul is speaking about people who are physically alive and does tell the Christians he is writing to, not to sleep as they do.
Now you say "the problem is that those who DO SLEEP, sleep AT NIGHT (in darkness)". But that is not quite the whole issue as they sleep because they are in darkness. "At night" tends to relate a period of time, but there is light now and darkness now. It isn't a period of time only, but also a condition. Jesus is in the world now, by the Spirit and thru his church. Light is still here.

I’m sorry that was a typo on my part (meant “in the night&#8221, but I thought I was clear that there is a correlation between those who “sleep” and “the night”. You apparently see that but couldn’t tell that that is what I was referring to (not a “time” but a “condition&#8221? I was.

And this is judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil. John 3:19

There are also passages like Rom 13:12 which do speak of the night and day and they do have a sense of periods of time. But it also has a sense of a condition as the day which is near (at hand) is about salvation. (Also see Matt 6:23 for darkness as a condition).

And darkness will always be somewhere as the wicked who are in darkness in this life, and remain in darkness, will be judged and their place will be the outer darkness (Matt 8:12).

That is where they ‘are’.

There does seem to be a sleeping (not being aware) which happens. Whether it is the whole church (everyone who believes in Christ) or if some will be watchful for the day of the Lord I am not sure. But, the parable in Matt 25:1-13 is interesting. All began to sleep, but some were prepared and had enough oil while the others did not. And so even though they slept (there was a shout that awoke both groups, which happened before the bridegroom came v.6 and v.10) the ones with enough oil went in with him to the wedding feast.

Which is why Paul tells us “not to sleep as others do”; but that doesn’t mean that some didn’t “fall asleep” (as Paul said they did, right?).

The problem with referring to "all who are in their tombs" as referrring to all men and their spiritual condition is found in the time frame. "For an hour is coming" is used in relation to the "all who are in their tombs" phrase, it wasn't there yet. In v.25, when speaking of the dead hearing and those who hear will live is "an hour is coming and now is". So in this verse life could be promised in the future and the present, while the verse about the tombs and the resurrection in v.26 was not at the present, but future only. So something between the two is different, as one could be in the present while the other could not.

I don’t know how you can break that up so that it is not one continuous thought and have it apply to two different things? It says that all will hear His voice and all who hear will live; however, though they will “live”, some come forth unto a resurrection OF LIFE while others come forth unto a resurrection OF DAMNATION.

The “beast” and the “false prophet” are cast into the lake of fire (this is the second death) “alive”, right?

I don't think you will ever be able to explain that one little word (with) in this passage using your framework, as the only mention of his movements are "until his coming" and "will descend from heaven". The passage seems clear from the 'where' it is they are brought from. "God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus" "from heaven" at "His coming". Your framework is almost forcing you to add to the text something which is not there.

Yes, HE is “coming” from “heaven”. But He is coming to get those who are alive and remain and apparently those “who sleep” or “the dead in Christ”, right?

Are you telling me that Paul is telling us not to worry about the dead corpses that are in the earth because God will raise up “dead bodies” before he gathers those who are alive and remain?

So “God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep” can only mean that they are “coming with him”?

So if I said “God will bring with him all those who are alive and remain” it means that they must already be “with” him and be “coming with him”?

Let’s look at it again from your perspective (that those who are “dead” are dead physically and that they are “coming” WITH Christ from heaven):

1Th 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

So Paul is telling those who are alive not to be worried about those who are asleep (dead) because God will bring them WITH HIM (when He comes to get those who are alive and remain), right?

Yet he goes on to say that “they” (those who are asleep; the dead in Christ) will rise first, that those who are alive and remain WILL NOT PREVENT those who are asleep from rising first?

It seems obvious to me that those who God will “bring with him” are those who shall “rise first” (the dead in Christ). What/who is rising first? Dead bodies buried in dirt?

Why on earth would a believer be concerned over another believer who has already died and gone one to be with the Lord? And if this is talking about dead corpses, then I sure don’t get it.

I can see how those who believe in “soul sleep” see this as “the resurrection of the dead” (those who have died physically that Christ is coming to get/resurrect from their graves). But I can’t see how anyone else would be concerned with a bunch of dead “bodies” when they believed the former inhabitants of those bodies to already be with the Lord.

In closing I would ask you to take a close look at what your beliefs are, as this is part of what we hope for. Are hope is Jesus and what he will change us as is part of this hope (1 Cor 15:52) what we eagerly await for (Rom 8:23).

What makes you think that I do not look long and hard at what I believe? I would surely not make that assumption about you or anyone else, just because you disagree with me.

I never denied that we are changed or either of those verses, in fact I explained them both (as I understand them). We do not wait until we die to receive the adoption of sons (which is the redemption of the body, according to Rom 8:23). Why do you think that that verse is talking about a PHYSICAL body? We are all a part of THE BODY of Jesus Christ and it is HIS BODY that is being redeemed, after a spiritual truth.

Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we shall be. We know that, when He appears, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him just as He is. 1 John 3:2

Amen, NOW are we the CHILDREN of God (ie not yet SONS). We receive the adoption OF SON when Christ is formed IN US and that is what Paul waited for:

Gal 4:19 My little CHILDREN, of whom I travail in birth again UNTIL CHRIST BE FORMED IN YOU,

We know we shall be like Jesus, but we are not sure exactly what this all entails.
But we also know it can be described as a body:

For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form. Col 2:9

And God comes and dwells IN US “bodily” so that “as He is so are we IN THIS WORLD”.

Jesus Christ IS COME in the flesh. (That is in the present perfect tense.)

What kind of body we do not know for sure as we only get glimpses of what that entails at the end of the Gospels. And we know that it can change as Jesus had a different appearance (in a different form) when he was with two disciples Mark 16:12 (if you don't mind using the longer ending). But I have also stated that the resurrected body can eat, drink, be touched, appear within locked rooms. But is that its true form, or its only form? We don't know other than it is bodily and it can do those things described above.
Christ is going to reclaim his creation, all that was pronounced "good" at creation (Gen 1:31). And this includes the body of those made in His image.

God is CREATING man in His image; that was not a “done deal” in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve. It is not what God “formed” out of the dust of the ground or “made” from the rib of Adam that is in God’s image. There are lots of things “hidden” in Genesis. And God declared THE END (those things not yet done) from the beginning.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Now the word study:

You expect me to look all of those up?

I have not looked up all of those verses yet, but I will try to later (and maybe make a separate post on those).

 

[Stan53]

I haven't read the entire thread, just the original post. Hell is separation from God. It is that simple. It may be a burning lake of fire. It maybe eternal torment, or it may not. At the end of the day, who cares? Put simply, hell is the absence of God. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[squint]

Squint,

Where did I say that either I or anyone else is “sinless”?

You want yourself and your fellow man to be "responsible for sins." My response was the "responsibility" will neither halt sins nor eradicate them so what is your point in laying responsibility for sins upon your fellow man?

I DO TOTALLY LOVE my fellow man, as God’s offspring, and I do not blame MAN but HIS SINFUL NATURE.

You have not "divided" that MAN from his sinful nature. You have nowhere else to go with anything regarding sins EXCEPT upon your fellow man and you DO BLAME...your fellow man in a multitude of various guises. Sinful nature, carnal nature, yada yada yada. The fact is and remains that you BLAME THEM for SINS.

That sin that is IN THE FLESH. You want to say that that is something “apart” from man but it is not, it is HIS NATURE, as a NATURAL/EARTHY/FLESHLY MAN.

Blame and blame and blame some more. You fully and completely will NOT implicate a SEPARATE ENTITY from the man and THAT is simply a LIE.

Paul did not say “it was NEVER ME”. He said it is NO LONGER I.

Spin that however you like. There are a veritable MULTITUDE of scriptures that CLEARLY IMPLICATE other parties to the substance of the flesh and minds of MANKIND that are NOT mankind.

To deny this fact is to be a PAWN of those things.

Because it was no longer walking IN THE FLESH, but IN THE SPIRIT (the INNER MAN, the SPIRITUAL MAN, the REGENERATED MAN, the HIDDEN MAN OF THE HEART).

But so long as we live “in the flesh” the SPIRIT will war against the FLESH, but the flesh will no longer HAVE DOMINION over us.

You call it “the devil” and “Satan” (as it referred to that way in scripture as well) but it is also called THE FLESH and THE NATURAL MAN.

The flesh and the natural man ARE NOT THE DEVIL. What in the world are you thinking?

Did Jesus speak to HIMSELF as SATAN in the DESERT?

Is it so hard to understand that someone can disagree with how you “divide” something? I agree with much of what you say as it relates to THE SALVATION OF MAN and THE DESTRUCTION of that which has the power of death (Satan, the devil).

I just get sick of you so called universalists who still REEK with blame and accusations to their fellow man. It stinks and yes, I do detest those lies.

I disagree with you that Satan, the devil, is something “separate” and “independent” from man.

Exactly. You MAKE YOUR FELLOW MAN THE DEVIL and you just can't believe there is such a thing EXCEPT your fellow man.

And of course since there is no DEVIL but MANKIND that also makes JESUS the DEVIL when Jesus spoke to SATAN in the desert.

That's how idiotic your positions are and I will drag them out for public display...again and again wherever those lies are DISPENSED.

So you can accuse me of “smearing mankind” all you want. You will give an account for your words just like the rest of us.

What is "in you" does smear both man and our Christ and there is no getting around it.

enjoy!

squint

 

[angelmom01]

You want yourself and your fellow man to be "responsible for sins." My response was the "responsibility" will neither halt sins nor eradicate them so what is your point in laying responsibility for sins upon your fellow man?

Only I never even used the word “responsible”.

You have not "divided" that MAN from his sinful nature. You have nowhere else to go with anything regarding sins EXCEPT upon your fellow man and you DO BLAME...your fellow man in a multitude of various guises. Sinful nature, carnal nature, yada yada yada. The fact is and remains that you BLAME THEM for SINS.

So you keep saying.

Blame and blame and blame some more. You fully and completely will NOT implicate a SEPARATE ENTITY from the man and THAT is simply a LIE.

So you keep saying.

Spin that however you like. There are a veritable MULTITUDE of scriptures that CLEARLY IMPLICATE other parties to the substance of the flesh and minds of MANKIND that are NOT mankind.

To deny this fact is to be a PAWN of those things.

So you keep saying.

The flesh and the natural man ARE NOT THE DEVIL. What in the world are you thinking?

Did Jesus speak to HIMSELF as SATAN in the DESERT?

Christ was "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin".

We were MADE SUBJECT TO VANITY,

We are SUBJECT TO THE LUSTS OF THE FLESH.

Do you doubt that Jesus Christ knew that He was God?

His temptation was no different than Eve's (or anyone else who is IN/OF THE WORLD)?


1Jo 2:15-16 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is IN THE WORLD, THE LUSTS OF THE FLESH, and THE LUST OF THE EYES, and THE PRIDE OF LIFE, is not of the Father, but is of the world.


Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (the lust of the flesh), and that it was pleasant to the eyes, (the lust of the eyes)and a tree to be desired to make one wise (the pride of life), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.


Luke 4:1-14 And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, Being forty days tempted of the devil. And in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered. And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread. And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence: For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season. And Jesus returned IN THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT into Galilee: and there went out a fame of him through all the region round about.


It is THE FLESH that wars against THE SPIRIT.


What did "the devil" HAVE that HE could give to Christ? Was ALL POWER delivered unto SATAN or was it delivered UNTO CHRIST (and to whomsoever HE would give it)?

I just get sick of you so called universalists who still REEK with blame and accusations to their fellow man. It stinks and yes, I do detest those lies.

You're not so "pleasant" to deal with yourself, which is why I didn't want to engage in a conversation with you in the first place and why I will try very hard to make this my last post to you.

Exactly. You MAKE YOUR FELLOW MAN THE DEVIL and you just can't believe there is such a thing EXCEPT your fellow man.

Perhaps you don’t understand the difference between THE FLESH and THE SPIRIT.

And of course since there is no DEVIL but MANKIND that also makes JESUS the DEVIL when Jesus spoke to SATAN in the desert.

He was tempted OF THE DEVIL. NO DOUBT. If you want to deny that that has anything to do with THE FLESH and THE CARNAL MIND, then so be it.


Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might DESTROY HIM THAT HAD THE POWER OF DEATH, that is, THE DEVIL;


Rom 8:5-7 For they that are after the flesh DO MIND the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be CARNALLY MINDED is DEATH; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because THE CARNAL MIND is ENMITY AGAINST GOD: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


There are only "two" who are said to hold THE POWER OF DEATH.

One is "the devil".

The other is "the tongue".

That's how idiotic your positions are and I will drag them out for public display...again and again wherever those lies are DISPENSED.

1Co 4:10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.

What is "in you" does smear both man and our Christ and there is no getting around it.

So you keep saying.

enjoy!

squint

I don't think I did.

 

[squint]

Only I never even used the word “responsible”.

Responsible, accountable...take yer pick.

What did "the devil" HAVE that HE could give to Christ? Was ALL POWER delivered unto SATAN or was it delivered UNTO CHRIST (and to whomsoever HE would give it)?

What devil is there in your spinOrama but Jesus?

You're not so "pleasant" to deal with yourself, which is why I didn't want to engage in a conversation with you in the first place and why I will try very hard to make this my last post to you.

Uh, actually the "reason" you don't is because I call you on yer baloney.

He was tempted OF THE DEVIL. NO DOUBT. If you want to deny that that has anything to do with THE FLESH and THE CARNAL MIND, then so be it.

Exactly. In your FALSE SPINORAMA Jesus was tempted by Satan as HIMSELF.

I just like to get these things out in the open...WHERE others can see "them."

Nice try on the obfuscation though.

enjoy!

squint

 

[windjammer]

Squint your foundation is not the Cross of Christ , BUT SOME OTHER GOSPEL a corrupt base , its NOT SCRIPTURAL!!
SIN IS NOT A DEMON , BUT ERROR AND MANKIND AND FLESH AND ALL THE THINGS OF THE FLESH ARE WARRING againstTHE SPIRIT of the Living God
your are so busy corrupting the Word and adding to and taking away from the WORD OF GOD ,
you have been warned .. now to be left ''wise in your own '' conceits''

JESUS LEARNED OBEDIENCE IN THE DAYS OF HIS FLESH!!!Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.!!!!!!

all flesh is death !!

 

[squint]

Squint your foundation is not the Cross of Christ ,

Says you. On what basis do you make your accusation?

BUT SOME OTHER GOSPEL a corrupt base , its NOT SCRIPTURAL!!

Prove it.

SIN IS NOT A DEMON ,

He who commits sin is of the devil. So says John the Apostle, so I really don't care what you have to say about it if what you say doesn't line up with scripture.

BUT ERROR AND MANKIND AND FLESH AND ALL THE THINGS OF THE FLESH ARE WARRING againstTHE SPIRIT of the Living God

Paul was also abundantly clear that what was IN the flesh wars against the spirit, so see previous.

your are so busy corrupting the Word and adding to and taking away from the WORD OF GOD ,
you have been warned .. now to be left ''wise in your own '' conceits'

What's your beef again? If I believe all mankind are saved you got an issue? lol

JESUS LEARNED OBEDIENCE IN THE DAYS OF HIS FLESH!!!Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.!!!!!!

all flesh is death !!

IT's always bizarre to see people go berserk when the Good News is preached.

All mankind and the WORLD are saved by the Saviour of the world, Jesus Christ.

And all devil kind are headed to the PIT.

injoy!

squint