What is "hell"?

Hi now im just asking whosoever will ,,

up for grabs what Jews that lie , are told they will DIE in their SINS?

20These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.

21Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
22Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
23And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning. 26I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
peace

LittleLambofJesus said:

That is also my view as I certainly do not agree with these guys.

http://www.apuritansmind.com/ChristianWalk/HateChrist.htm

http://www.geocities.com/mutmainaa1/belief/hell_description.html

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I sensed that was where you were in the very first post I ever read from you llJ and I do appreciate your accurate dissections of word studies.

I do have a somewhat hard time understanding why this simplicity is resisted so vehemently, but I do understand who resists.

windjammer said:

Hi Squint ,

Well first of all the spirit [wind breath movement of air ] of error is my first comment to make and yes i sure do believe that is true ,,, the whole world , this world
1Jo 3:12 Not as Cain, [who] was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

sin is missing the mark or share in being partakers with Christ
its a business and employment and a job if you will the sin [not a demon or devil ] but an error in judgment [trespass] against GODS WILL and siding with opposition to GODS WILL &WORD ,

this narrow path that leads to life is tight and pressed , the broad path that leads to an end [destruction ] is where many go according to the WORD OF GOD .[in the Older testament ].

this being the whole point why JESUS COME TO US ,, THAT we might be hired by Him to be about His Fathers business also Him being King or ruler leader BOSS .. master even if you will ... and those taking on the new employment become partakers in the SHARE [inheritance ] goodness and grace truth LIGHT of GODS WILL [DESIRE]
and an ability to have others join in the saving grace that Jesus Himself come to do the same[ WORK ]

a servant for hire thinking of the 3 types and the last group hired was standing idol in the market place cause no man hired them!! Jesus employed them given the same wage as all the rest whom He hires ..

...........2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient,In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

I personally believe that the ''unclean spirits''
are the same spirits that have not Jesus SPIRIT as being anti christ

also my point being that Jesus come to forgive sins [error trespass] a dark path and guilt
it seems silly to say that Jesus come to forgive [sin ,=demons]
you have a bit of confusion with that take on things dont you think ?
and what of repentance ?
whats the point of repentance , if devils are to blame ?
here is a great example to whom was JESUS SPEAKING TO ? please ask to whom did Jesus say to repent , not devils but MANKIND !!
we are not to be slaves to the lusts[desires= works]of evil
There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.




Luk 13:2And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luk 13:4Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
who will perish according to Jesus words?
if you answer this , we can go further all of us can go further
Jesus is our peace windjammer

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The observation in all views of scripture is that scripture does NOT just address mankind. Scripture also addresses SATAN and DEVILS in men and these are OVERLAPPED in the body of flesh. Though Gods offspring, ALL MANKIND are placed IN flesh these same "all" are still Gods offspring.

IF we see the Word speaking not to our fellow man, but to our fellow man's CAPTORS then all of the eternal damnation and wrath scriptures can very well and without ANY uncertainty be fully applicable and fully intended for THE OTHER PARTIES who are not MANKIND. That's the gist of it anyway.

enjoy!

squint

angelmom01 said:

I thought I also quoted vs 28 and 29? They are not two different resurrections; there is ONLY ONE resurrection and HIS NAME is Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is THE resurrection and THE life and no one comes to the Father but BY HIM. He is THE FIRST and THE LAST. AMEN??
Look carefully at the Martha said to Christ and how He responded to her at the resurrection of Lazarus:
John 11:23-26 Jesus saith unto her,Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her,I AM the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Does it sound to you like Christ thought that Martha understood what “the resurrection at the last day” was? Jesus Christ IS the resurrection and the life. He IS eternal life; that life is IN THE SON. We wait for his “appearing” for his “coming”, YES!! Amen!!! Christ is formed IN US so that we might have LIFE and so that “as He is so are we IN THIS WORLD”. Amen? I know that most see two resurrections separated by the millennium. I see ONE resurrection (Jesus Christ):
1Co 15:22-23 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
He comes to each of us, unto those of us who look for Him, unto those who sleep (IN THE NIGHT) so that He might give them LIFE/LIGHT and make them children OF THE DAY. He comes “without sin unto salvation”.
And we do not desire to be UNCLOTHED, but CLOTHED UPON. If this earthly tabernacle were dissolved we would see that we HAVE a house not made with hands eternal in the heavens. (2 Cor 5). That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)
I said that it had to do with Pentecost and the coming of the Holy Spirit, right? And Jesus Christ is THE resurrection, there is ONLY ONE, only THE FIRST. Blessed and holy is He that has part in THE FIRST RESURRECTION, it is by the power of HIS resurrection that we receive life and attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
The adoption of sons IS the redemption of the body, right? When do you think that you receive the adoption of sons?
As I see it, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise when we first believe, receiving “the earnest” (or firstfruits) of the spirit. But at that time we are “yet carnal” (1 Cor 3:3) and we must “go on unto perfection”. We must be “born again”; we must have Christ formed in us (this is how we are “delivered of the child”; remember the “woman in travail”?), we must receive the Spirit OF HIS SON whereby we cry Abba, Father. This is “the adoption of sons” and “salvation” and “the redemption of our body”.
yes it can be seen, it can be manifest in the flesh and appear in locked rooms, but a spiritual body is not a natural body. Christ appeared in a body of flesh to prove His resurrection. How else was He supposed to do that? He also appeared in a body of flesh to show us that he DOES have a body OF FLESH AND BONES. WE are His body, we are of his flesh and of his bones. And HE is THE BLOOD of that body, as the LIFE is IN THE BLOOD, right? Christ cannot come and dwell IN US and also maintain a body of flesh and bone somewhere else. God is SPIRIT. And if the Spirit of God dwells in us then we are “no longer in the flesh but in the spirit”.

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I will respond to the rest of your post probably tomorrow morning or the next after work. However, I thought these parts of your post deserved a post of its own. Just as eternal judgment is part of the basics (Heb 6:1,2) and part of the gospel (Rom 2:16) so to the resurrection of the dead, in Jesus, is part of the basics.
There is more than one resurrection one is now and the other is when he comes again. Both bring life and both are in Jesus as the scriptures below will point out. To start with the John 5 passage:

Very truly, I tell you, the hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself; and he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. Do not be astonished at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and will come out. Those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:25-29

So in the first part, it is 'the hour is coming, and is already here'. Also in the first part, it is 'those who hear' 'will live'.
But in the second part, 'the hour is coming' and it is 'all' who 'are in their graves'. Those that 'have done good' 'the resurrection of life', while those that 'have done evil' 'the resurrection of condemnation'.
See how different the descriptions are? One is only about those who here and the other is about all, everyone. One is saying the dead that hear will live, the other is saying all will hear and will be resurrected, but to different outcomes. The first just says that the dead who hear will live. In the second it is all in their graves will hear and be resurrected. Very different. And in fact the all in the second part has to include those in the first. But notice the people in the first part are now living (spiritually), so the "in their graves' is not speaking about spiritual death, but the death of the body or the first part of the passage is made void (contradicted) as they would be dead again spiritually. This two resurrections will be backed up with what is posted below.

You mentioned the conversation of Martha and Jesus.

Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" John 11:23-26

Notice a difference again? In the first part those who believe will die, but they will live. In the second part, everyone who lives and believes in Jesus will never die. Two different statements shown by "they die' and 'will never die'. Although not as clear as John 5 you have to admit the first is definitely referring to the body when it says 'they die' and the second to the spiritual. My question would be, is the 'will live' in the first statement about the spirit or the body of the believer? The spiritual is definitely the second statement. So while from this passage alone one could not prove that bodily resurrection happens, but it does show a difference. And this difference makes perfect sense with the two resurrections described in John 5.

And to quickly answer what you posted, yes Jesus Christ IS the resurrection and the life. He IS eternal life; that life is IN THE SON. No one is saying otherwise.
Now we have to ask ourselves how was Jesus in fact resurrected? (I will leave the 'comes to those who look for him' in my next post. But what has been written has already shown differently than how you are using it (John 5:29)).

You wrote, "1 Co 15:22-23 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterwards they that are Christ's at his coming.".

My first question is aren't those who believe in him already alive? If they are already alive, why would they have to wait for his coming? Or is there really a distinction? From what has already been posted we have John 5:25 (the dead that hear live) and John 11:26 (everyone who lives and believes in Jesus will never die). From this verse it sounds like to have life one has to wait for his coming, unless you have the two resurrections in John 5. That distinction shows its head once again (and we will see more of it) Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. It shows something we do not already have, something Christ already has that we do not. And we shall receive it at his coming. But it can't be spiritual life, Christians already have that as they have the Spirit inside of them as the first part of John 5 and the second part of John 11 show.
(As far as you highlighting 'every man in his own order' as it does not directly pertain to this post I will not go into it in depth. A favorite universalist passage, but keep one thing in mind, the distinctions of those in Christ and those that are not are always kept. God is all in all, but he is not 'all' in the same manner to everyone as the 1 Cor 15 passage clearly shows. The distinctions between the righteous/unrighteous, sheep/goats, is always kept).

Now quickly, before showing what the resurrection of believers will be at the second coming of Jesus, you asked if "The adoption of sons IS the redemption of the body, right?". No, I posted this before, our adoption is now (John 1:12,13) we can cry Abba now (Rom 8:15 Gal 4:6,7) but the Rom 8:23 passage shows the adoption is not complete without the redemption of our bodies. We have a down payment so to speak which is our guarantee of what is to come. We have more to come.

I do recognize that Christ's body is the church, which he is the head of. A spiritual body (1 Cor 12:27 Eph 1:23 Col 1:24). And this is accomplished by the Spirit being in us.

If we look at Christ's answer to the Sadducees (Matt 22:23-33 Mark 12:18-27 Luke 20:27-40) his answer was about two things. One, no marriage because they are like angels in heaven. And two, "I am the God..." not the God of the dead but of the living. Which of course agrees with the first resurrection of John 5 as these people had faith in the promise, the promise of Jesus which they looked forward to (Matt 13:17 Luke 10:24 John 8:56).

I'll post again the passage in Romans 6:

Therefore we have been buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. Rom 6:4,5

Notice this passage is pointing to something that the believer does not have yet. We will certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his, even though having been buried with him in baptism we are now walking in newness of life (two resurrections again like John 5).

And a familiar passage again:

and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly while we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies. Rom 8:23









Bodily resurrection is no trivial matter as Paul points out in 1 Cor 15:12-21. If you deny the resurrection of the dead, then you also have to deny Christ being raised from the dead, because they are of the same type.
We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God that he raised Christ - whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 1 Cor 15:15

This resurrection was not just in Spirit, Jesus had this Spirit already before he died. He claimed it would be bodily (John 2:21) and if you read the end of each gospel, it was bodily. So if we deny a bodily resurrection, then we also have to deny the bodily resurrection of Christ, and all is for not.

Yes, Christians are alive right now as they walk in newness of life by the Spirit. But as Christians we hope for much more, what we are promised, we hope to be like Christ is now. And we will be when he comes again.

DesertScroll, I realize that my own posts can be quite long sometimes :o, but if every post is going to be 4 or 5 pages long I don’t know that I am going to be able to keep up with this conversation.

So I am going to try and just hit a few high points without using too many quotes (which I hate to do because I don’t want to even chance misrepresenting what someone else has said, or maybe even miss something but it will take me too long to answer each point and each verse and I think I have already addressed most of them anyway, as I think you addressed many of the same verses, but from your perspective).

At any rate, nowhere does scripture ever speak of anything other than the first resurrection and that is Christ’s resurrection and blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. From the first to the last it is by the power of His resurrection that we attain unto the the resurrection of the dead. (Phi 3:1)

As far as those “in their graves” goes, please do not overlook the fact that we are housed in a body of death and our throat is an open sepulcher.

The scriptures are written for the living (after a natural truth) not the dead (except after a spiritual truth), so that we might have life (pass from death unto life via the power of the Holy Spirit) so that we might know God and Jesus Christ whom He sent (have eternal life). The “resurrection of the dead” has to do with that very thing (after a spiritual truth).

Those things that are seen (which are temporal) are given to us to show us those things that are not seen (which are eternal).

Christ healed the physically blind to show us a SPIRITUAL truth.

Christ healed the physically deaf to show us a SPIRITUAL truth.

Christ healed the physically dead to show us a SPIRITUAL truth.

Scripture says that there is a natural body and there is a spiritual body as far as the spiritual body is concerned, it says that God gives it a body, as it pleases him (not that he resuscitates our “old man”).

Ok, I guess now I am going to have to do at least a few "quotes"

DesertSroll said:

My first question is aren't those who believe in him already alive? If they are already alive, why would they have to wait for his coming?

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The answer is that they don’t. It is those who are “dead” who are waiting and who need to be watching for His appearing, as they have not yet been “born again” so they have “no life” in them.

DesertScroll said:

The distinctions between the righteous/unrighteous, sheep/goats, is always kept).

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I don’t believe that I ever indicated that there is not a distinction between those.

DesertScroll said:

No, I posted this before, our adoption is now (John 1:12,13) we can cry Abba now (Rom 8:15 Gal 4:6,7) but the Rom 8:23 passage shows the adoption is not complete without the redemption of our bodies. We have a down payment so to speak which is our guarantee of what is to come. We have more to come.

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It most certainly is our down payment. AMEN. As the earnest is not the adoption and the adoption is the redemption of our body.

Which you clearly point out yourself right here (bold mine):

DesertScroll said:

and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly while we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies. Rom 8:23

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This is not something that those who have been born again wait for, as they have received the adoption of son (if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in them). But it is something that “the dead” do not have yet. And as we know, “babes in Christ” are “yet carnal”. They have not been born again; they have not yet passed from death unto life. They have “the earnest of the spirit” and they wait for “the adoption of sons” (for Christ to be formed in them).

The only way that you can claim that they are not the same is to say "But it is not complete" (referring to the adoption, I assume). However, that is not what that verse says. It says that those who have the fristfruits WAIT FOR the adoption, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODIES.

DesertScroll said:

If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit that dwells in you. Rom 8:11

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AMEN! He gives life to YOUR MORTAL BODY. (This in not talking about a dead corpse.)

DesertSCroll said:

Our mortal bodies will be (the future, the second coming) given life.

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Our mortal bodies have life if the Spirit of God dwells in them. It is THIS MORTAL that must PUT ON immortality.

Please show me where it says we “put off” something other than the “old man”.

Paul says that we DO NOT DESIRE to be UNCLOTHED, but CLOTHED UPON, that MORTALITY might be swallowed up OF LIFE.

Again, this is talking about passing from death unto life thought the power of the Holy Spirit and Christ IN YOU.

It is starting to get late and I really think that I already addressed most, if not all of the verses that you posted back to me so I don’t really see any point in addressing them again since my understanding of them has not changed. I will just be repeating myself and be lengthening this post unnecessarily.

But as far as :

DesertSCroll said:

If you deny the resurrection of the dead, then you also have to deny Christ being raised from the dead, because they are of the same type.

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Let me make if very clear that I do NOT deny the resurrection of the dead.

There is no denying that Christ’s tomb was empty and that He appeared physically to his disciples and that AS HE IS so shall we be. I may disagree with you on “how” and “when” that happens, but I DO NOT deny the resurrection of Christ or the resurrection of the dead.

Great post Angelmom ,
it sure has blessed my soul to read it ! thanks for sharing whats in your heart [what a treasure]
I love dwelling on the things above ! its a keeper for sure

seeing the empty Tomb of Christ Jesus Also after a spiritual truth in being , this treasure chest within His heart He poured out His Spirit and faith upon all flesh and gave all them most precious gifts of favour & grace within Himself to us
what paul realized in saying in Eph 4 Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 2Cr 8:9For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
Gods precious blessing to you and yours ..windjammer

1 John 4:
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

None of these will fry.

I'll keep my posts shorter.
Below is your answer for the distinctions I posted in the John 5 passages. As an example, remember when you asked about Rev 14:13 and you asked how could 'Blessed are the dead who from now on die in the Lord' if verses 9-11 were about the end judgment? And I answered showing how the the language in those verses was future and so there was no contradiction at all. That is an answer to a question, dealing with the problems raised by your question.
I pointed out differences in John 5:25-29. Did you respond showing in the verses that there were no differences? Showing me how the differences I proposed were not differences at all?
Your answer, is not an answer based on the question, but just a restatement of your beliefs. I can imagine what you would say (using the info you posted about "in their graves") but you didn't say it. Its actually a good argument by basically making the 'all' in the second part refer only to those who are spiritually dead. I may be dense, but see I am finally starting to understand your argument.
So here is what I propose, I'll keep it short and you answer the questions. And I will also answer your questions. Treat me like a blind dog that you have to lead around carefully.

angelmom01 said:

At any rate, nowhere does scripture ever speak of anything other than the first resurrection and that is Christ’s resurrection and blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection. From the first to the last it is by the power of His resurrection that we attain unto the the resurrection of the dead. (Phi 3:1)

As far as those “in their graves” goes, please do not overlook the fact that we are housed in a body of death and our throat is an open sepulcher.

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So to keep it short, let's deal with only two passages. Here is what you wrote in regards to Romans 8:23

This is not something that those who have been born again wait for, as they have received the adoption of son (if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in them). But it is something that “the dead” do not have yet. And as we know, “babes in Christ” are “yet carnal”. They have not been born again; they have not yet passed from death unto life. They have “the earnest of the spirit” and they wait for “the adoption of sons” (for Christ to be formed in them).

The only way that you can claim that they are not the same is to say "But it is not complete" (referring to the adoption, I assume). However, that is not what that verse says. It says that those who have the fristfruits WAIT FOR the adoption, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODIES.


AMEN! He gives life to YOUR MORTAL BODY. (This in not talking about a dead corpse.)

Our mortal bodies have life if the Spirit of God dwells in them. It is THIS MORTAL that must PUT ON immortality.

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Now my questions on this verse.
1) Who is this passage referring to? I would say Paul and the Christians at Rome to whom he was writing.
2) Do they have the Spirit in them? I would say yes, as it says they have the first fruits of the Spirit.
3) If they are awaiting the redemption of their bodies (not yet having received this adoption, they wait for it) does this mean that everyone whom this passage refers to are babes in Christ? Myself, I hesitate to call Paul a babe since it sounds like he is able to give them solid food (1 Cor 3:2).
4) If not everyone in this passage is a babe in Christ, then what are they waiting for in the future? And you know my answer to this question.

And the second passage:

But we do not want you to be uniformed brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:13-17

Questions:
1) Who are those who have fallen asleep? I would say based on verse 15 that they are Christians who have died.
2) Who are those who are alive at the coming of the Lord? I would say Christians who haven't fallen asleep (died) yet.
3) What is meant by those that are alive at the coming of the Lord shall not precede those that have fallen asleep? I would say the living will not precede those that are dead in Christ in rising (v.16).
4) Is rising in v.16 the same as caught up in v.17? I would say no, as we know the dead in Christ are brought with Jesus when he comes (v.14).
5) So what is this rising? And of course you know my answer.

Well it may not be short, but it is shorter. I'll work on it.
Feel free to ask me any questions as well.
And see how dense I am, this is the first time I have been able to break apart quotes.
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Thank You windjammer,

It is so amazing to me how many spiritual truths are hidden among "the natural" things that God has given us as a means to "see" that which is not seen.

Wheeler and DesertScroll,

I'm at work so I am copy/pasting your posts so I can work on responses as I have the time.... be back later.

PS DesertScroll, I am longwinded myself so it would be hypocrital of me to try and "limit" the length of someone else's posts. It might be easier on both of us if we don't try to cover so much in one post and do break them down a bit, but I was just ribbing ya a little. I know better than (being a pot) to call the kettle black.

But thanks for shortening your post.

Thanks for the response, Wheeler. That is exactly as I used to see it as well so I understand where you are coming from. What I have been looking at recently, though, is the fact that God was in Christ reconciling THE WORLD unto Himself, right? So then reconciliation (of all) came through Jesus Christ at the cross. Would you agree with that?

At the same time, God was creating ONE NEW MAN (of all nations, both Jew and Gentile, bond and free, etc) IN CHRIST JESUS. Right?

So it seems to me that if all were reconciled to God through Christ at the cross, that means that all are now found IN CHRIST (one new man).

In this way, ALL have been baptized into HIS DEATH, but not all have been resurrected into HIS LIFE.

Jesus Christ is Lord of both the living AND DEAD, both the tare and the wheat are growing together, and whether we “live” or we die” we do so unto the Lord.

Scripture says that our LIFE is HID with Christ in God – UNTIL He who is our life “shall appear” (THEN we shall appear with Him in Glory - Christ IN YOU, the hope OF GLORY).

We also know that all things that offend and them that do iniquity are cast OUT OF THE KINGDOM, right? So they must be “in the kingdom” in order to be “cast out”, right?

And if we look at the parables concerning what “the kingdom of heaven” IS LIKE, we can see that when the invited guests did not show up for the wedding, that the king sent his servants out to drag in ALL WHO THEY COULD FIND (both good and bad) so that the wedding would be furnished with guests, right? And THEN he had the one found “without a wedding garment” bound hand a foot and cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, right?

We also see the same thing concerning the fish and the net. When the net was full they dragged it in (with both the good and bad) AND THEN they were separated the fish (gathering the good into vessels and casting the bad away).

So it seems pretty clear to me that reconciliation between man and God took place at the cross and that is when ‘all’ were “dragged in” (baptized into His death). But at that point our life IS HID and it is not until HE who is life APPEARS that we shall appear with Him in glory.

I’m not really quite sure yet how this relates to “the church” (as “the body of Christ”) or those who are “cast out”?

I also see that there is an “internal” application to this as well, as the kingdom of God is “within” (and we are each “by nature” the children of wrath (tares, that need to be “burned” so that the “wheat” can shine forth).

squint said:

1 John 4:
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

None of these will fry.

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Would you say these characters "knew" YHWH?

Matt 23:33 "Serpents, gennhmata <1081> of Vipers! How may ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV"

Reve 14:11 And the Smoke of the Tormenting of Them into Ages of Ages is ascending. And not they are having rest Day and Night the ones worshipping the Wild Beast,

LittleLambofJesus said:

Would you say these characters "knew" YHWH?

Matt 23:33 "Serpents, gennhmata <1081> of Vipers! How may ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV"

Reve 14:11 And the Smoke of the Tormenting of Them into Ages of Ages is ascending. And not they are having rest Day and Night the ones worshipping the Wild Beast,

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I think we know that those entities are ANTI-Love. They have no choice but to "resist" as that is how God made them.

The evidence of their existence is upon those who 'differentiate' themselves above their fellow man in the name of Jesus and THEY are RAMPANT "in" his followers above all.

enjoy!

squint

DesertScroll said:

I'll keep my posts shorter.

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I’ll try too. But I make no promises so I don’t expect you to.

Below is your answer for the distinctions I posted in the John 5 passages. As an example, remember when you asked about Rev 14:13 and you asked how could 'Blessed are the dead who from now on die in the Lord' if verses 9-11 were about the end judgment?

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I wasn’t questioning that it has to do with judgment, just that it was something that came “at the end” (with nothing to follow). Don't you see it as "the end" with nothing to follow? Or did I get that wrong?

And I answered showing how the the language in those verses was future and so there was no contradiction at all. That is an answer to a question, dealing with the problems raised by your question.

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I’m not sure what you are saying? I was asking about the “dying henceforth” which means “from now on” (or “going forward”) right? So if this is talking about something that is to “begin now” and “continue going forward” then it is not only something “future” but something “now” (and ongoing). Right? Therefore it cannot be “the end” (with nothing to follow) as there is a “henceforth” application.

I pointed out differences in John 5:25-29. Did you respond showing in the verses that there were no differences? Showing me how the differences I proposed were not differences at all?

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No because you could very well “divide” the verses that way. What good would it do for me to tell you that I do not think that is the correct way to divide or apply those verses? Dividing the verses that way makes perfect sense given your understanding of them. I can see that and have no need to argue that. I only wish to point out that it doesn’t “have” to be divided that way and given “my own” understanding of not only those verses but the rest of scripture they are not divided that way but all who are “in their graves” (after a spiritual truth, rather than a natural one) “have” heard the voice of the Son of God. And those that “hear” shall “live” (again, after a spiritual truth). That is why it is written “TODAY if ye will HEAR His voice, harden not your heart”. It is the fulfillment of Christ’s words to the thief on the cross (again, after a spiritual truth) “TODAY shalt thou be with me in paradise”. Spiritually speaking, Christ was declaring THE DAY of the Lord.

Christ comes as a thief IN THE NIGHT (to those who “sleep”, to “the dead”) so that they might pass from death (THE NIGHT) unto life (THE DAY). That is related, spiritually, to YESTERDAY (the NIGHT when it is PAST) and TODAY (when you hear His voice and harden not your heart), which is connected (spiritually) to THE THOUSAND YEARS, which is ONE DAY to the Lord.

That is why I was trying to show that this body of death is our “grave” (after a spiritual truth).

Your answer, is not an answer based on the question, but just a restatement of your beliefs. I can imagine what you would say (using the info you posted about "in their graves") but you didn't say it.

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I’m sorry, I thought I did by posting the verse.:o

Its actually a good argument by basically making the 'all' in the second part refer only to those who are spiritually dead.

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If one died for all, then were ALL DEAD. Right?

I may be dense, but see I am finally starting to understand your argument.

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So here is what I propose, I'll keep it short and you answer the questions. And I will also answer your questions. Treat me like a blind dog that you have to lead around carefully.

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OK.

Now my questions on this verse.

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1) Who is this passage referring to? I would say Paul and the Christians at Rome to whom he was writing.

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I would agree. But I would also like to point out that not all “Christians” are “born again”

2) Do they have the Spirit in them? I would say yes, as it says they have the first fruits of the Spirit.

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I would partly agree. I agree that they have been sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise and have been given “the earnest of the spirit”, but unless they have received “the adoption of sons” they are still waiting on having Christ formed in them (which is the hope of glory).

3) If they are awaiting the redemption of their bodies (not yet having received this adoption, they wait for it) does this mean that everyone whom this passage refers to are babes in Christ?

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Yes, though I am sure that not who received the letter were "babes".

Myself, I hesitate to call Paul a babe since it sounds like he is able to give them solid food (1 Cor 3:2).

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AMEN, but Paul did not COUNT HIMSELF to have apprehended unto the resurrection of the dead. He “followed after” not “as though” he HAD ALREADY attained or were ALREADY perfect. He tells us to walk by the same “rule”, right? (Refer to Job 9:20 for the possible reason.)

4) If not everyone in this passage is a babe in Christ, then what are they waiting for in the future? And you know my answer to this question.

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Paul is addressing those who are awaiting the adoption of sons, not those who have “already attained” and I would guess that those who were more “mature” (having “gone on unto perfection”) knew this. And I am sure that they walked by the same rule as Paul.

And the second passage:

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But we do not want you to be uniformed brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:13-17

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Questions:

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1) Who are those who have fallen asleep? I would say based on verse 15 that they are Christians who have died.

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I see “the dead in Christ” as those who are alive physically, but dead spiritually. They have been baptized into Christ death but not resurrected into His life. So they are “asleep”; those who “sleep” sleep AT NIGHT.

2) Who are those who are alive at the coming of the Lord? I would say Christians who haven't fallen asleep (died) yet.

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Those who are alive both spiritually and physically when Christ comes to collect ALL (both the “dead” and the “living”) who “remain”.

3) What is meant by those that are alive at the coming of the Lord shall not precede those that have fallen asleep? I would say the living will not precede those that are dead in Christ in rising (v.16).

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At the time of harvest, the TARES are gathered FIRST according to Christ (matt 13:30). Therefore, it makes perfect sense that Paul would say that those who are alive will not prevent those who are “asleep”, for “the dead” in Christ shall rise FIRST.

4) Is rising in v.16 the same as caught up in v.17? I would say no, as we know the dead in Christ are brought with Jesus when he comes (v.14).

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The verse is talking about those who “remain” (both the living and the dead) and has nothing to do with those who “come with him” as I understand that verse, as I believe he is just saying that Christ will “bring them (those who sleep) with him” (back to God).

5) So what is this rising? And of course you know my answer.

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It is speaking about Christ coming to gather ALL who “remain” (both the dead and the living, the tares and the wheat). You see this as His “second coming”. But I see His “second” coming as the coming of the Holy Spirit.

Well it may not be short, but it is shorter. I'll work on it.

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No problem!!

Feel free to ask me any questions as well.

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And see how dense I am, this is the first time I have been able to break apart quotes.

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Then you did a GREAT job!!!

squint said:

I think we know that those entities are ANTI-Love. They have no choice but to "resist" as that is how God made them.

The evidence of their existence is upon those who 'differentiate' themselves above their fellow man in the name of Jesus and THEY are RAMPANT "in" his followers above all.

enjoy!

squint

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Btw, how would you translate that word after serpents, #1081, which is also used in 2 corin 9 and almost looks similar to the greek word for "gehenna"?
This is one reason I like reading thru the original greek. Thoughts?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matt 23:33 "Serpents, gennhmata <1081> of Vipers! How may ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV"

Matthew 23:33 ofeiV <3789> {SERPENTS,} gennhmata <1081> {OFFSPRING} ecidnwn <2191> {OF VIPERS,} pwV <4459> {HOW} fughte <5343> (5632) {SHALL YE ESCAPE} apo <575> {FROM} thV <3588> {THE} krisewV <2920> {JUDGING} thV <3588> {OF THE} geennhV <1067> {OF GEHENNA?}

2 Corinthians 9:10 The yet one-supplying seed to the one sowing, and bread into feeding he shall be furnishing, and he shall be multiplying the seed of ye, and he shall be causing to grow gennhmata <1081> of the righteousness of ye,
gennhmata <1081> {FRUITS}

LittleLambofJesus said:

Btw, how would you translate that word after serpents, #1081, which is also used in 2 corin 9 and almost looks similar to the greek word for "gehenna"?
This is one reason I like reading thru the original greek. Thoughts?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matt 23:33 "Serpents, gennhmata <1081> of Vipers! How may ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV"

Matthew 23:33 ofeiV <3789> {SERPENTS,} gennhmata <1081> {OFFSPRING} ecidnwn <2191> {OF VIPERS,} pwV <4459> {HOW} fughte <5343> (5632) {SHALL YE ESCAPE} apo <575> {FROM} thV <3588> {THE} krisewV <2920> {JUDGING} thV <3588> {OF THE}geennhV <1067> {OF GEHENNA?}

2 Corinthians 9:10 The yet one-supplying seed to the one sowing, and bread into feeding he shall be furnishing, and he shall be multiplying the seed of ye, and he shall be causing to grow gennhmata <1081> of the righteousness of ye,
gennhmata <1081> {FRUITS}

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Genos of "singular" generation with no link requirement to gehenna in Matt. 23:33 other than their eventuality in that valley of woe fire

Mankind, Gods offspring are referred to in plurality "generations" "fruits" as these pass from the flesh by generations and are taken up.

The generation of the serpents is singular and remains singular to this day. These have not yet passed away so their generation continues to grow ripening unto the harvest of destruction

enjoy!

squint

I sorta see the connection lamb

Heres one Lamb...

Isaiah 65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. **These are** a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

It appears one can actually "be" a smoke and fire in and of themselves. The "generation of" vipers is shown. Though being cut assunder with the hypcrites portion has some ressemblance to being cut assunder with those who are they which are "a smoke" and "a fire" of themselves.

Then theres another generation here shown as "the chosen generation"...

1Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

It speaks "who shall declare "His generation"? And yet we are chosen "in Him"

Ephes 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

Whats interesting is that Christ himself declares himself as "THE OFFSPRING" in Rev 22: 16 of David. Even as the "Root" (we are to have "in ourselves"). The Spirit of Christ is "the promise" and THE SEED (we are born of) is that which is COUNTED as SEED. HIS SEED which pertains to "The incorruptible Word of God". He is the Word (incorruptible) of God we are "born of".

This corruptible (seed) is not counted but "this corruptible "puts it on".

Paul says...

Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.


Acts 17:30 And **the times** of this ignorance God **winked at** but now commandeth all men every where **to repent**:


So Paul says God WINKED at ignorance but now commands MEN to repent.

Now Paul says ye are NOT in the FLESH **IF SO BE* "the Spirit of Christ" (even "the promise") be IN YOU. IF NOT HE is NONE OF HIS

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now IF ANY MAN have **NOT** the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Christ is the root and OFFSPRING of David. Its NOT the children "of the flesh" that ARE COUNTED for SEED but children of "the promise" (Who have the Spirit of Christ) in them. These are counted as seed as Isaac is counted (being the children of "the promise) in Christ the Offspring of David.

Romans 9:8 They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of **the promise** are **COUNTED FOR** THE SEED.


Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children ***of promise***.


1Peter 1:23 Being born again, ~not of~ corruptible seed, ~but of~ incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


1John 3:9 **Whosoever is born of God** doth not commit sin; for **his seed** remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The promise is of the Holy Spirit (If anyman hath NOT the Spirit of Christ) it specifically states he is NONE OF HIS.

Ephes 1:13... in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit **of promise**,


Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children **of promise**.


Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Some things never change

Dont want to post much and not too interested in discussion but wanted to add to your post, I can indeed some ressemblance there.

Peace

Fireinfolding

Genos of "singular" generation with no link requirement to gehenna in Matt. 23:33 other than their eventuality in that valley of woe fire

Mankind, Gods offspring are referred to in plurality "generations" "fruits" as these pass from the flesh by generations and are taken up.

The generation of the serpents is singular and remains singular to this day. These have not yet passed away so their generation continues to grow ripening unto the harvest of destruction

enjoy!

squint

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Wow, thanks for that post squint!!! That brings to mind these 2 passages:

Matt 12:42 `A queen of the south shall be being aroused/egerqhsetai <1453> (5701) in the judging with the generation/geneaV <1074>, the-this, and shall be condemning it/her. That she came out of the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and lo, more of Solomon here!

Matt 12:41 `Men Ninevites shall be resurrecting/ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) in the judging with the generation/geneaV <1074> , the-this, and they shall be condemning it/her that they repent/reform into the proclamation of Jonah and Lo! more of Jonah here.

I sorta see the connection lamb

Heres one Lamb...

Isaiah 65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. **These are** a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

It appears one can actually "be" a smoke and fire in and of themselves. The "generation of" vipers is shown. Though being cut assunder with the hypcrites portion has some ressemblance to being cut assunder with those who are they which are "a smoke" and "a fire" of themselves.

Then theres another generation here shown as "the chosen generation"...

1Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Some things never change

Dont want to post much and not too interested in discussion but wanted to add to your post, I can indeed some ressemblance there.

Peace

Fireinfolding

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And what a beautifull connection it is FiRe!!!!!! Thanks.

Wheeler said:

Yes, Jesus is the Savior of the world.....every person in his order:

(1 Cor 15:22 KJV) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The kingdom of heaven is an exclusive group...it currently does not contain those of the outside world. We are an exclusive group first chosen out of the world:

(1 Pet 2:9 KJV) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

The field is the world:

(Mat 13:38 KJV) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

Those "sinners of the world" already suffer the judgment....we were all children of wrath....we were all spiritually dead....in Adam all are dead. The "dead" do not know God spiritually....they know of Him. There is no where to go but into life in Christ....to be resurrected....in this age or the next. Only the tares get thrown into the fire.....not the field....not the world...not the spiritually dead:

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

God judges the "living" and the "dead".....accordingly.

The "tares" are calling themselves Christians (the "living").....they are in our gatherings....they profess to know God....they have secretly crept into our assemblies without notice. They have led people astray under their government.....the "kingdom of heaven" refers to the government of those of the body of Christ. Jesus is as a man who took a far journey and left people in charge of the kingdom:

(Mark 13:34 KJV) For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

But there were those who lorded it over those underneath.....they began to "beat" those underneath them. The "tares" are those who do iniquity.....they have taught the church to sin.....the "tares" are also those doctrines that cause sin....nets that catch people. While they should have been feeding the body of Christ, they haven't been......only they feed themselves. They are the son of perdition.....they have been chosen just like Judas....but are really of the wicked one:

(John 6:70 KJV) Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Only the son of perdition will be lost....not the billions of the world who have never known God spiritually.

(John 17:12 KJV) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Who are the enemies? Are they not of the Lord's own house?

(Micah 7:6 KJV) For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house.

Wasn't Cain a brother to Abel? Wasn't Esau a brother to Jacob? Weren't Korah, Dathan, and Abiram members of the same congregation?

Numbers 16: 21 Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them in a moment.
22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?
23 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
24 Speak unto the congregation, saying, Get you up from about the tabernacle of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram.

We are to leave their gatherings....their leadership....so as not to suffer their judgment of wrath and indignation....as an enemy of God. We are given the opportunity to "wake" up and leave Babylon. Those who choose to stay behind....enjoying the works of darkness...will be blotted out of the book of Life.....to be left in outer darkness:

(Rev 22:15 KJV) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Regarding the wicked leaders.....We will never again be struck with the sun....with their heat....with their drought....nor will we hunger or thirst any longer under their care....for the Lord Himself will be our light and provider:

(Isa 49:10 KJV) They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.

(Rev 22:5 KJV) And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Their "sun" will go down.....their works are darkness....the moon turned to darkness....their works are those of "violence".....the moon turned to "blood". They care not for those of the body of Christ They are the "powers of heave" that will be shaken......they are the stars that will fall. They are the spiritual rulers in high places....they will lose their position and inheritance. They have established their rule by spiritual "violence"....they lack love....and the lack of love is the last straw...they are the man of sin....just like Cain....they hated their brothers. The early world was destroyed because of the violence done to each other:

(Gen 6:13 KJV) And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

The judgment of Gehenna came on the Jewish people.....they hated their brother, Jesus their Messiah. Jesus warned us about the increase in wickedness...that the love of most would grow cold....in the "church." This is a major sign that the end is almost here. We are to love God and love each other....that is fulfilling of the entire law.

We are to overcome.

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Don't know who you are dude, but you ARE a Brother in TRUTH...

That was awesome. And ya' know what? It's also spreading! I am greatly encouraged whenever I see people write and LIVE in Truth.

squint