Let me ask this question then, and please don't label me anything as far as "religious groups" go. Just a curious question.
If by ADAM, we died, by HIS SIN in this mortal flesh. Everyone, including Jesus, beings He was flesh....
And Jesus being the second Adam brought LIFE, through the Spirit, wouldn't everyone live? Even if you were an unbeliever while in the flesh, wouldn't by His act of Life bring Life to the whole world?
Think about the Jews in my thoughts. They have a blindness, in part, right now concerning Jesus the Savior. Since they die in the flesh while having this blindness, there is no hope for salvation? At ALL?
Why would man limit the Creator? Wouldn't the Creator wish ALL His Creation to be saved?
See I think about the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. The gulf that was between them after they died. Abraham could not cross it even though he was the "Father" of the rich man. Abraham even called him son. But are you telling me that when Jesus died, and defeated death(first Adam's punishment) and brought Light and Life to the world(second Adam's reward), that He didn't grab hold of those Keys of Death and Hades, opened that Gate and crossed right over?
What is there the need for more Priests and Kings(Rev 1:6 and 5:10) if there isn't anyone to minister to? And if there is more to minister to, who are they? Just some thoughts
Tkjjc I agree with you somewhat.
Dante's Inferno has been taught for generation.
We have to be honest with ourselves. There really isn't anything specific about 'hell' in the Bible.
From doing some study this is what I discovered.
One of the central tenenats of faith among the Pharisee’s was that there is a place of reward and a place of punishment where souls go after death.
The place of reward is called paradise. The word paradise (pardes) is a Persian loan word that appears in both the Hebrew and Greek to describe the place of the soul’s reward after death. According to the Pharisee’s the souls of the righteous wait in paradise for the resurrection of the dead at which point they will be returned to their bodies.
Several other terms for paradise appear in rabbinic literature including the Garden of Eden(Gan Eden) and the term ‘under the throne of glory’ (tachat kiseh hakvod).
A Talmudic tradition records the names of seven heavens each one a subsequent and ascending level into the precincts of paradise. The belief in seven heavens is attested by Paul who claims ‘to know a man’(himself of course who was onece caught up in the third heaven.)
The Phasisee’s believed in a place of reward and the place was known by several names. To be in Abrahams’s Bosom meant to be with Abraham. Simply another term for paradise.
In Jewish literature ‘going to Abraham’ is idiomatic for going to paradise. In the Talmud the term Abraham’s Bosom is used to speak specifically of the death of a Rabbi Yehudah. “Today he sits in the Bosom of Abraham”(b. Kiddushin 72b)
It’s also common in rabbinic literature to speak of the souls of the righteous as being ‘carried by angels; into paradise.In the Midrash Rabbah an angelic escort is sent to fetch the soul of Moses but Moses soul will yield only to God.
So an important thing to remember belief in paradise and the existence of the soul was not universal in 1st century Judaism. The Sadduccees rejected these notions by the Pharisee's as 'hogwash'. They were rigid literalists who only accepted authority of the written Torah. Since they couldn't find Abraham's Bosom or the fires of Gehennah in the Torah they rejected it. To paraphrase the Sadduccess's might have said: "Enough with your traditions of men".
When Yeshua described the soul of Lazarus being carried by angels to Abraham’s Bosom He was using the common terms and idioms of Pharisaic theology to describe the death of the righteous. The Paradise which Lazarus was escorted is the same paradise of which Paul the Pharisee spoke when he said ‘to be absent from the body’ is to be home with the Lord’.
When the Gospel text says hell or hades we should keep in mind that those are Greek language translations for the Hebrew Gehennah., but hell and hades do not equal Gehennah. Hades is the mythological place of the dead, the realm of the underworld. The word hell seems to rise from the Anglo-Saxon word describing the shadowy realm of the dead. Confusion with the Greek mythological concepts of Hades gave rise to the church’s popular Dantesque vision of souls in torment ‘being whipped by demons’ which are all ruled by satan in hell. Biblically satan is not the god of the ‘underworld’ and neither is hell his kingdom. Satan is the ‘prince of the power of the air’. The pit of fire is his final destination not his realm.
Hell or Hades couldn’t have been part of Yeshua’s ‘vocabulary’. The word Gey-Hinnon literally means ‘ Valley of Hinnon’ . The Valley of Hinnon is one of the three valleys that comprise the topography of Jerusalem. In the days of the Judaen monarchy, children were sacrificed to Molech in that valley. King Josiah defiled its ritual status by turning it into a garbage dump. Apparently refuse was still burning in Hinnon valley even in the days of Yeshua. With such an evil reputation and the continual buring of the garbage fires the name of the valley came to be euphe,istic for God’s eternal garbage dump.
So by the time of Yeshua the name Gehennah had come to mean the place of torment and purgation where the souls of the dead received theor comeuppance. It is dry and waterless place of unending thirst.
The Pharisee's explained that the 'dead bodies' of those who rebelled referred to the souls of the damned in Gehennhah.. There the fire was not quenched and the worm will not die. Yeshua uses the same passage to describe Gehennah.
Apparently it's reasonable to say that the souls in Gehennah can see the souls of those in paradise and visa versa.
Another Pharisaic proof text ti describe Gehennah is:
Psalm 112:10 The wicked will see it and be grieved;
He will gnash his teeth and melt away;
The desire of the wicked shall perish.
There the wicked are described as gnashing theeir teeth at the site of the righteous. Yeshua draws on Psalm 112's teeth gnashing 7 times across the Gospels as He describes the fate of those consigned to Gehennha.
A Rabbi Nehemiah said: " When the wicked ascend from Gehennah and the see the righteous sitting peacefully in the Gan Eden they are ashamed. Hence it is written, "The wicked man will see and be vexed, he will gnash his teeth(Levitcus Rabbah 32:1, quoting Psalm 112:10).
Just as in the midarsh above the rich man and Lazarus are visible to one another but are separated by a great divide. Abraham says the the rich man "Between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, in order that those who wish to come over from here to you may not be able, and none can cross over from there to us".
Gehennah and Gan Eden run parralel. But no one can cross over from one to another. no one can cross the great divide.
After doing a deep study I discovered that my view of 'hell' needed to be adjusted.
The rich man and Lazarus terminolgy was so familar to His listeners. The terminology was well established theological 'assumptions'. Yeshua wasn't revealing any secret information about the after life. Yeshua was speking in the everyday terminology of the Pharisee's.
With all this being said Yeshua doesn't tell us about the rich man and Lazarus to teach us about after life. Again He knew His listeners already understood the 'principles'. The issues of life and death are incidental to the rich man and Lazarus because of this.
It's very interesting because just because the Rich Man was on the other side doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't saved.
I have used this allegory before: There will be those that will be sitting at the banquet table for eternity with the King in the Kingdom. There will also be those that will be peaking in at the banquet gnashing their teeth "Saying I wish I would have known better" in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Yeshua also refers to this when He says there will those that will be called least and greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven.
We hear people say "If you don't believe in Jesus you will go to hell". Really?
Let's be honest....
Jews rely on Gods grace..and not Obedience to the commandments to grant them salvation....
Even orthodox Jews believe in obeying the commandments are out of love for God and a covenant responsibility..but it is Gods grace and mercy alone that grants us his unconditional love and acceptance or salvation...Being obedient to the Torah is just our response to that love and his covenant with us...
So, christians see Messiah as the ultimate expression of Gods grace and so do Messianic Jews. Orthodox Jews whether they beleive the Messiah is a person or just simply an age of peace and justice..it is Gods grace that gets us to that person/or place/or point..not our deeds. Our deeds are simply a response...and if we can obey the commandments we create an atmospher for true peace and Justice...
Orthodox Jews believe in obeying the commandments are out of love for God and a covenant responsibility..but it is Gods grace and mercy alone that grants us their unconditional love and acceptance or salvation...Being obedient to the Torah is just their response to that love and his covenant with them...
Same with the Pharisee's. Although the Pharisee's added commandments they were still righteous and preached righteousness.
I just can't believe that God would send the above to eternal damnation. Doesn't make sense.
And maybe it;s because our view of eternal judgement is messed up?
Marc
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