What is hell?

[HypoTypoSis]

Did Jesus say the following?

John 11:25, "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"

Is this 100% irrefutably correct?

 

[mont974x4]

I believe the whole Bible to be complete and without error or contradiction.

Tha passages I posted do not negate any other passage. They help expand our understanding of the subject.

 

[HypoTypoSis]

I believe the whole Bible to be complete and without error or contradiction.

John 11:25, "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"

Then you also agree the unsaved dead cannot be resurrected since resurrection is only possible through Jesus and only for those in Christ.

 

[mont974x4]

Nope, I cannot agree to that since I have posted scripture that clearly says all will be resurected for judgment.

That statement from Christ in John 11:25 does not negate the other verses either.

 

[HypoTypoSis]

Originally Posted by mont974x4
I believe the whole Bible to be complete and without error or contradiction.

John 11:25, "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"

Then you also agree the unsaved dead cannot be resurrected since resurrection is only possible through Jesus and only for those in Christ.

Nope, I cannot agree to that since I have posted scripture that clearly says all will be resurected for judgment.

That statement from Christ in John 11:25 does not negate the other verses either.

You can't have your cake and eat it, too. Either Jesus was telling the truth and whatever other scripture you are talking about you are misunderstanding or, heaven forbid, Jesus was lying. As it is there is a contradiction which cannot on face value be reconciled.

We have already agreed upon as fact that Jesus is THE resurrection and THE life and that no one but those IN HIM can be resurrected.

ergo, the only option left is you have a misunderstanding regarding your "other" verse. So which is it?

 

[mont974x4]

There is nothing in John 11:25 that says non-beleivers won't be resurected too. He just happens to only be talking about beleivers in that particular verse.

The only way to avoid any contradiction would be to say that Jesus was pointing out a truth, which is beleivers will be resurected to glory in that verse. He simply didn't state the other truth, that unbeleivers will be resurected for eternal judgment.

No contradiction and no lie.

 

[HypoTypoSis]

Originally Posted by mont974x4
I believe the whole Bible to be complete and without error or contradiction.

John 11:25, "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"

Then you also agree the unsaved dead cannot be resurrected since resurrection is only possible through Jesus and only for those in Christ.

mont974x4 ]
Nope, I cannot agree to that

You can't have your cake and eat it, too. Either Jesus was telling the truth and whatever other scripture you are talking about you are misunderstanding or, heaven forbid, Jesus was lying. As it is there is a contradiction which cannot on face value be reconciled.

We have already agreed upon as fact that Jesus is THE resurrection and THE life and that no one but those IN HIM can be resurrected.

ergo, the only option left is you have a misunderstanding regarding your "other" verse. So which is it?

There is nothing in John 11:25 that says non-beleivers won't be resurected too.

So what you're saying is that Jesus was lying or, at the least, not telling the whole truth when He said:

"...he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"


You're saying He meant everyone.

Listen to yourself!


You deny the very scripture passage in which Jesus SPECIFICALLY says only those IN HIM will He resurrect!

Did Jesus say the following?

John 11:25, "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"

Is it 100% irrefutably correct?

If your answer is "yes" then is it in line with that verse to say the answer to the following question is "no, they can't be resurrected"?

How can the unsaved dead be resurrected since Jesus said resurrection is only possible through Him and only for those IN Him?

 

[CooL_Genesis]

So what you're saying is that Jesus was lying or, at the least, not telling the whole truth when He said:

"...he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"


You're saying He meant everyone.

Listen to yourself!


You deny the very scripture passage in which Jesus SPECIFICALLY says only those IN HIM will He resurrect!

Did Jesus say the following?

John 11:25, "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"

Is it 100% irrefutably correct?

If your answer is "yes" then is it in line with that verse to say the answer to the following question is "no, they can't be resurrected"?

How can the unsaved dead be resurrected since Jesus said resurrection is only possible through Him and only for those IN Him?

Firstly, let me thank you, Hypo, for giving me the conviction to search the scriptures in more detail to find the answers to the questions you keep asking. It has been a blessing for me to study God's word in such an exhaustive manner.

Now, to answer the question of the resurrection of the Dead.

How can the unsaved dead be resurrected since Jesus said resurrection is only possible through Him and only for those IN Him?

God's word points to the resurrection of not only the dead that are in Christ, but also of the rest of the dead for judgement. The book of Revelation talks about it in great detail.

Rev. 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

These verses are backed up by God's word in the books of Acts 17:30-31, Romans 2:16/14:9, Matthew 25:31-46, just to name a few.

You see, my sister, ALL men are the Lord's according to God's Holy Word as stated in these verses:

Numbers 16:22
And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Numbers 27:16
Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,

Job 12:10
In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

Romans 14:7-8
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

We can not put the Lord in a box and assume He only has the power to resurrect those that have died in Him. It is true that if we believe on Him, He will grant us eternal Life, but He has the power and authority to fulfill all things.

How do we know there is a resurrection and a judgement for the dead and that they will experience eternal condemnation? Well, the verses stated above, the verses backing those up and even these continue to expand our knowledge of the resurrection of ALL mankind for judgement. The most clearly stated of all of these is probably Daniel 12:2.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Ecclesiastes 3:16-21
16 And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.
17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Isaiah 66:23-24
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Daniel 7:10
A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

The promise of eternal Life is granted to the believer of Jesus Christ. However, the promise of eternal condemnation is also granted unto the unbeliever. To say otherwise is to directly contradict the word of the Living God. To say otherwise is to take power away from His Son, Jesus Christ, whom has power over ALL things... the living and the dead and will judge ALL flesh, those that are in Him and those that are not. To deny this is to say that our Lord himself was not raised from the dead.

Romans 14:9
For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

1 Corinthians 15:13
But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

1 Corinthians 15:16
For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

According to the book of Revelation, there are indeed 2 resurrections. The first is for the believers and those that sleep in Christ. The second resurrection is the raising of the dead and hell or hades. Both of these will be judged and cast into the lake of fire, forever... according to God's Holy Word. This is known as the "second death", mentioned 4 times in Revelation. The lake of fire is mentioned numerous times in the Bible.

As to John 11:25, Jesus wasn't just speaking of those that believed on Him. He is the resurrection... it's His to fulfill and He has in part with His own resurrection. However, ALL will be resurrected by Him... some to eternal life, others to everlasting contempt. His statement reflects His power for the resurrection and to give eternal life. It is not limited to that only as He has the power to resurrect and judge all men:

John 5:21-29
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I hope this helps to clear up any issues, Hypo, and again I thank you. If it were not for your pursuance of certain questions, I would have left this thread long ago. However, I prayed about it, asked the Lord for His guidance and studied the Word so that He might bring some light into the subject. May God bless you and keep you.

-Genesis

 

[mont974x4]

Thanks Cool Genesis


It is important for us all to look deeper. In order to help have a fuller understanding we must set aside our preconceived notions and pray that He opens our eyes and ears to His Truth as He helps us set aside our own truth.

 

[HypoTypoSis]

Firstly, let me thank you, Hypo, for giving me the conviction to search the scriptures in more detail to find the answers to the questions you keep asking. It has been a blessing for me to study God's word in such an exhaustive manner.

I appreciate that, CG, as well as your serious and earnest tone; I also appreciate the effort you've obviously also invested (though, it does appear to have waned a bit as the study progressed). I shall try to respond with the same serious and earnest fervor.

God's word points to the resurrection of not only the dead that are in Christ, but also of the rest of the dead for judgement.

Rev. 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God;

please note the two red words in the verse above. Do their meanings match the assumed inferences?

and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life:

How many books? I count a minimum of three.

and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

The unsaved were convicted and sentenced before the foundation of the world was laid at the same time the saved were foreknown. To have another judgment would be double jeporady at worst, moot at best.

Obviously, since we are told "by works none shall be saved" a judgment of works for the unsaved is redundantly moot and, also, inviting of double jeporady.

Follow through with me on the following now;

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;

This refers to those of verse 5, "But 'the rest of the dead' lived not again until the thousand years were finished".

this is part of the resurrection of the saved. The saved are not dead for they sleep.

and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them:

In the first part of the verse we saw the saved in the sea resurrected to life, all that is left to be resurrected are the saved that are buried in the earth.

In the last part of the verse we see 'hell' properly translated, as John wrote it, to be "the grave" so the last part of the verse reads thus:

"and death and the grave delivered up the dead which were in them." This is in accord with the first part of the verse, answers 'what about those in the ground--as an addition to those in the sea', and makes one cogent whole statement.

and they were judged every man according to their works.

Again, why judge someone if they've already been convicted?

This is not a judgment of the unsaved but of the saved. Nor is it a judgment for salvation but of works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Death and the grave were cast into the lake of fire. The death of death is the second death. This is the Day of The Lord and takes place when the entire universe, heaven, earth, everything (unsaved) in it is reduced to nothingness:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This (2 Peter 3:10) scene is an, as yet, still future scene and speaks to those that are alive on the earth at that time and that are not saved when the big "flame on" occurs.

Numbers 16:22
And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?

A closer examination will reveal this refers to 'ruach', as 'coming from God and returns to God'; iow, this refers to God's breath of life that all living, man (saved & unsaved), animals, fish, fowl, plants, insects have and when they die that spirit (breath) of life returns to God.

(fwiw, this is one of the sources (pagan, New Age and demonic) that would have men believe in reincarnation, that all life comes from and returns to a 'big pool of life'. Everything God does Satan mirror immages, mimics and turns into a lie.)

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Same as above, this refers to God's breath of life.

Numbers 27:16
Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,

Again, same as above.

Job 12:10
In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.

Same as above.

Romans 14:7-8
7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

This (7 & 8) is addressed TO those Jews in Christ though there is secondary application FOR the gentile Christians then as well as us today; there is also a third application ABOUT the unsaved as well as the saved. None of our physical bodies are self-sufficient unto themselves for all receive their life force from God's breath of life; also, for those in Christ, we llive unto Christ as the thought, continuing, explains in verse 8:

8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

We can not put the Lord in a box

Nor can we assume He can do things outside of His character and purpose and it is not in His character or purpose to resurrect to life those not in Him.

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

First, This speaks specifically to (and was written TO and FOR) those of Israel.

Second, as with the similar Rev verse (which repeats THIS verse) it speaks not to good and evil but shame and contempt.

Servants are never referred to as unsaved or or the Lord. Remember the parable (and related parables) of the unjust steward?

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

All living (here, spec flesh) dies when God's breath of ife returns to Him. THAT is OUR (ie mankind's) 'one appointment'.

Ecclesiastes 3:16-21
16 And moreover I saw under the sun the place of judgment, that wickedness was there; and the place of righteousness, that iniquity was there.

'under the sun', here, in this age, at the end of this age, just prior to Peter's 'flame on'.

17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.

And those at the end of the age who will not be saved will be judged and they shall remain while creation is consumed in a fire that melts the very elements. There names will not be found in the book of life and those whose names are in the book of life shall already have left this creation.

18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

Very excellently put, the unsaved are like beasts, they are of "natural order of things".

19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them:

This reiterates what I've just said above.

as the one dieth, so dieth the other;

Again, this reiterates the same thing.

yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

Sill, again, this reiterates the above comments.

20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

When God's breath of life returns to Him all that is left is a corpse (not a man for a man has God's breath of life) that returns to dust.

21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

"that goeth": This is mentioned as one of the emandations of the Sopherim, though it is not included in the official lists. The primitive Text read the letter 'He' (H) as an interrogative, "whether it go" (compare 2:19; 6:12). The Chadean, Septuagint, Syriac, Vulgate, Luther, Geneva, and the RV follow this reading. Another school the the 'He' (H) as the article pronoun and read "that goeth" thus avoiding a supposed objection to its public reading. This was foloowed by Coverdale, the Bishop's Bible, and the AV. It is therefore the figure of speech, 'erotesis', leaving the question to be answered at the end of the book in chapter 12:7.-EWB

Er'-o-te-sis; or, Interrogating (Genesis 13:9. Psalm 35:10). The asking of questions, not for information, or for an answer. Such questions may be asked (1) in positive affirmation, (2) in negative affirmation, (3) in afffirmative negation, (4) in demonstration, (5) in wonder and admiration, (6) in rapture, (7) in wishes, (8) in refusals and denials, (9) in doubts, (10) in admonition, (11), in expostulation, (12) in prohibition or dissuasion, (13) in pity and commiseration, (14) in disparagement, (15) in reproaches, (16) in lamentation, (17) in indignation, (18) in absurdities and impossibilities, (19) double questions.-EWB

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

God's breath of life

I'm not going to bother with all the rest for there has been no study invested in them as they have just been tossed out for 'weighty sake'. Serious study excludes simple searches on keywords devoid of context.

iae, the big issue in this "lesson" is that it is far too easy to assume the scriptures say one thing (good and evil) when, in fact, they say (small and great) and mean something entirely different.

Blessings,

HypoTypoSis

 

[mont974x4]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.


Have a good night.

 

[HypoTypoSis]

fwiw,
I invested almost 2 hours of time, study and research in replying to CG's obviously equal effort.

I posted that response at 8:15.
You posted yours at 8:20
That tells all a lot.

Henceforth, I will not be bothered with less than equal effort and serious attitudes regarding The Lord's word.

 

[mont974x4]

Actually it only took me that long to read your post and see that neither of us were likely to change the other ones mind.

So I decided to step away from the discussion and leave you in peace.

I was rewarded with an attack..which also speaks volumes.

I pray your time in study is fruitful as you continue to grow in Him...as I pray this for us all.

 

[CooL_Genesis]

This difference in my post and yours was that I allowed scripture to interpret scripture and you allowed something else to interpret them. What this is that you've used, I know not... so I shall to leave you to your own reasoning.

As for me, I'll let the Word of God interpret itself with the guide of the Holy Spirit. It took me more than a couple of hours to find all of that. It actually took a couple of days... reading, cross referencing. It amazed me that the very last thing I found, the cross reference for John 11:25, spoke of the resurrection to damnation for some. I didn't see a response to that in any of your post.

The Sadducees questioned Jesus on the resurrection in three of the gospels. They were intent on proving to the crowd that there was no resurrection of the dead. Jesus quickly set them straight. You deny God's power to judge men and that power is evident in all of scripture.

Peace be with you.

-Genesis

 

[HypoTypoSis]

I'll let the Word of God interpret itself with the guide of the Holy Spirit.

GC,

It would appear the Holy Spirit is telling me one thing and you another. And, yet, we know the Holy Spirit never contradicts itself.

For a long time I simply allowed myself to believe what others had said without questioning it just looking for each and every verse, even phrases of verses, I thought confirmed those preconceived notions.

Then I decided to let God do the interpretation and He nearly always has a totally different view; it's not yours, not mine, no one else's view. His view is His alone. Sometimes it matches ours, other times it often does not.

The big question, however, is that in those instances where His view is different from ours and it is brought to our attention are we willing to alter our views to match His?

So, with that, I would ask you the following; when was the last time you had a such a change in thinking, what was it that caused that change and what was the resultant change?

 

[HypoTypoSis]

John 11:25, "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"

How can the unsaved dead be resurrected since Jesus said HE IS THE RESURRECTION and resurrection is ONLY POSSIBLE THROUGH HIM AND ONLY FOR THOSE IN HIM?

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

One thing we can thank HypoTypoSis for is that we should all now have John 11:25 memorized. It seems to be the cornerstone of her whole doctrine on the afterlife. It's telling when a doctrine is mainly based off of one verse like that.

 

[HypoTypoSis]

we should all now have John 11:25 memorized.

Oh, there are lot's more I've posted. It would simply be nice to study each verse to their deepest and fullest before moving on, ya know?

John 11:25, "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"

How can the unsaved dead be resurrected since Jesus said HE IS THE RESURRECTION and resurrection is ONLY POSSIBLE THROUGH HIM AND ONLY FOR THOSE IN HIM?

Apparently, based on the verse, itself, the answer is is plainly obvious, "they can't!"

 

[CooL_Genesis]

I started thinking of things afresh and new when the Holy Spirit entered into my life. The old man died and a new creation was born. I no longer look at God's word or the world the way I once did. I used to not have a care about God's word and followed the world's way of thinking. All that is different now.

However... I don't believe in cheapening God's word, not for one second. And if it's telling me numerous times the same thing over and over and over, that's truth! I don't understand God's ways, but I do know that He gave us His word so we could have a better understanding of who He is and how He operates. So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

All throughout His written word, not man's opinions, it speaks of His judgements... not only his love, but his wrath. How can you possibly deny that He is the Lord of ALL and every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess? How is this possible without the resurrection of all, some to Life and some to eternal damnation?

I answered your question about John 11:25, from the Bible... not from my mind or my opinion. And here it is again...

John 5:21-29
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Jesus has the power of the resurrection and judgement of ALL men according to the Bible.

In peace and grace,

-Genesis

 

[mont974x4]

John 11:25, "Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"

How can the unsaved dead be resurrected since Jesus said HE IS THE RESURRECTION and resurrection is ONLY POSSIBLE THROUGH HIM AND ONLY FOR THOSE IN HIM?

The problem is that nothing in this passage or its context suggests that resurection is only for believers. In order to get a better understanding of what will happen when Christ returns to judge all men we look at other verses to get a fuller picture. This leads us to the verses that clearly state that both believers and unbelievers will be resurected...only to diferent things.

Also, since the Bible clearly talks about eternal punishment we can not say that unbelievers simply cease to exist.