What is Hell? Who goes there? (moved from WWMC)

[Charlie V]

I fail to see the connection or relevance here....

I fail to see how anyone could fail to see the connection or relevance here.....

Charlie

 

[Charlie V]

Dear Pats. What is Hell? Jesus told us Himself, " Hell is a place in outer darkness, without God`s Love or Light,"

What passage are you quoting? Your use of quotes suggests these are Christ's exact words?

Charlie

 

[Charlie V]

What about the verse in John 1:12 that says "to all those who recieved Him and believed in His name, he gave the right to become children of God."

Doesn't sound like we are all His children to me....

This argument that we're not all God's children doesn't bode well for another, completely different "hot topic" debated between religious liberals and conservatives. The topic of abortion.

Some conservatives have argued that, since God made us in our mother's womb, we are all God's children from conception, therefore abortion is wrong.

Based on this, you don't become one of God's children until you have the capacity to "recieve Him and believe in His name."

Charlie

 

[Charlie V]

This is as simply as I can put it. Hell (damnation, eternal torment, fire and brimstone &C &C) is nothing less than we deserve.

Looking for one moment at the state of the world is enough to convince a rational person that Humanity is the most violent, cruel, dishonest, self aggrandizing and self indulgent creature in all of creation. We alone are truly subject to Sin's power in the world because we alone are rationally aware that violence, cruelty, dishonesty, self aggrandizement and self indulgence are purely destuctive and simply ought not be practiced. In spite of the divine gift of reason, each and every person falls victim to sin throughout their life. Indeed, there is no portion of our lives in which Sin's influence is absent.

What we deserve is God's retribution for our sin, for God to cease to hold back righteous anger and, at the very least, destroy our souls as failed experiments.

At the very least, I know that I deserve nothing less.

Edit to add:
The question of hell ought not be "Who is going to go there" but rather "Why haven't I been put there already"

Edit to add further:
Sorry to the OP, this doesn't seem like much of a liberal's viewpoint but it really is, I promise.

I find this argument that "we all deserve hell" to be quite alarming and absurd. It's also not Biblical -- you have to take a number of verses totally out of context to distort the Bible to make such a claim. Jesus would never have said that the Good Samaritan in his parable deserves to be set on fire for all eternity.

It's obvious, just looking at man's punishment of man, that this is absurd.

Suppose a person was arrested for a minor offense. Let's say.. j-walking. If the judge said, "I sentance you to be set on fire, and the fire to be kept burning forever. We won't let you die, but we'll keep the fire burning at all times,"

MOST people would have a problem with that.

I know, I know, none are righteous, blah-blah-blah. But being a jay-walker doesn't = deserving to be set on fire, for ten minutes let alone forever.

I don't think you deserve to be set on fire, and I tend to believe in a God who's even more merciful than I am.

Looking for one moment at the state of the world is enough to convince a rational person that Humanity is the most violent, cruel, dishonest, self aggrandizing and self indulgent creature in all of creation.

How pessimistic. I don't see that at all when I look at the world.

Sure, I see violence, and cruelty, and dishonesty, and self-aggrandizing, and self-indulgence. And I also see pockets of peace, and kindness, and truthfulness, and humility, and reaching out to others.

If your claim was completely true, well, for one thing, we couldn't discuss it. Because we ourselves would be violent, cruely, dishonest, self-aggrandizing and self-indulgent, and we'd believe this is the way everyone should be. Nobody could object because everyone would be that way, and believe one should be that way.

There'd also be no such thing as charity. No such thing as soup kitchens. No such thing as love. Yet I see these things in the world.

EDIT:
Re-reading what you wrote:

Humanity is the most violent, cruel, dishonest, self aggrandizing and self indulgent creature in all of creation.

perhaps I misintepretted.

Okay, we're comparing humanity with other creatures. Well, that implies the animal kingdom.

Black widow spiders kill their mates, every time. Many insects and other animals regularly eat their own young. They decieve other animals into their traps. So I'm not convinced, taking it that way either.

I sometimes shoo away birds, but I've never torn out the neck of a bird -- though cats have!

Charlie

 

[non-religious]

[Vegas]Why would salvation be solely determined on a span of a human life on Earth? The implication is clear... after death at the judgement ALL will acknowledge and worship God and God can then forgive everybody

Um....I know what that verse implies thank you very much and as far as you're last part goes I'm not sure that's sound doctrine so I'll leave that for you to believe. In regard to my point that not every child born is necessarily a child of God, I'll stand by that until I see or learn different. I'm very much open to being persuaded, but until then I'll maintain my opinion.....

 

[non-religious]

[charlie V]This argument that we're not all God's children doesn't bode well for another, completely different "hot topic" debated between religious liberals and conservatives. The topic of abortion.

Some conservatives have argued that, since God made us in our mother's womb, we are all God's children from conception, therefore abortion is wrong.

Based on this, you don't become one of God's children until you have the capacity to "recieve Him and believe in His name."

I'm not swayed by the arguments of any one's political/theological ideology be them lib or con. Fact is I interpret that verse in John as it is simply written. I fail to see why that is so hard to understand.....

 

[Charlie V]

Um....I know what that verse implies thank you very much and as far as you're last part goes I'm not sure that's sound doctrine so I'll leave that for you to believe. In regard to my point that not every child born is necessarily a child of God, I'll stand by that until I see or learn different. I'm very much open to being persuaded, but until then I'll maintain my opinion.....

I actually agree with everything you say here, but let me break it down.

Um....I know what that verse implies thank you very much

I know what other verses that you and others brought up imply also.

Now, since we all have decided that we all know what all the verses imply, we can pack up our Bibles and go home.

and as far as you're last part goes I'm not sure that's sound doctrine so I'll leave that for you to believe.

And the things that you and some others have said here, who have disagreed with what I've said, I'm not sure they're sound doctrine so I'll leave those for you to believe.

In regard to my point that not every child born is necessarily a child of God, I'll stand by that until I see or learn different. I'm very much open to being persuaded, but until then I'll maintain my opinion.....

And in regard to the point that every child is indeed a child of God, I'll stand by that until I see or learn differently. I'm open to being persuaded as well, but until then I'll maintain my own opinion.

So, I guess we're all done here.

Charlie

 

[Charlie V]

Fact is I interpret that verse in John as it is simply written. I fail to see why that is so hard to understand.....

And the fact is that I interpret the verse in John as it is simply written, and taking into account its context and the Bible's other teachings.

I fail to see why that is so hard to understand....

Do you interpret these verses as they are simply written?

1Ti 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Charlie

 

[Charlie V]

I'm not swayed by the arguments of any one's political/theological ideology be them lib or con. Fact is I interpret that verse in John as it is simply written.

Okay, but I didn't suggest that you'd be swayed by the arguments so much that your arguments defeat their arguments. I didn't say anything about you being swayed.

So would you say that the argument that abortion is wrong because God formed us in the mother's womb is an incorrect argument because we are not the children of God unless we accept Jesus? Your position certainly does seem to knock down their position.

Charlie

 

[Vegas]

Um....I know what that verse implies thank you very much and as far as you're last part goes I'm not sure that's sound doctrine so I'll leave that for you to believe. In regard to my point that not every child born is necessarily a child of God, I'll stand by that until I see or learn different. I'm very much open to being persuaded, but until then I'll maintain my opinion.....

Just curious... did Jesus ever tell anyone they were not a child of God?

 

[Gukkor]

I find this argument that "we all deserve hell" to be quite alarming and absurd. It's also not Biblical -- you have to take a number of verses totally out of context to distort the Bible to make such a claim. Jesus would never have said that the Good Samaritan in his parable deserves to be set on fire for all eternity.

It's obvious, just looking at man's punishment of man, that this is absurd.

Suppose a person was arrested for a minor offense. Let's say.. j-walking. If the judge said, "I sentance you to be set on fire, and the fire to be kept burning forever. We won't let you die, but we'll keep the fire burning at all times,"

MOST people would have a problem with that.

I know, I know, none are righteous, blah-blah-blah. But being a jay-walker doesn't = deserving to be set on fire, for ten minutes let alone forever.

I don't think you deserve to be set on fire, and I tend to believe in a God who's even more merciful than I am.

Wow. You know, you're right. Even though I'm a universalist, I'd never really seen any reason to discard that particular point of doctrine, since whether or not we deserve to go to Hell for eternity has no bearing on if we actually will go to Hell for eternity. However, what you have said makes complete and unavoidable sense (not that I'm really trying to avoid it).

Well, one more piece of chaff in my old beliefs to throw to the fire.

 

[Charlie V]

Wow. You know, you're right. Even though I'm a universalist, I'd never really seen any reason to discard that particular point of doctrine, since whether or not we deserve to go to Hell for eternity has no bearing on if we actually will go to Hell for eternity. However, what you have said makes complete and unavoidable sense (not that I'm really trying to avoid it).

Well, one more piece of chaff in my old beliefs to throw to the fire.

Here's a simple formula for you.

Infinite punishment for Finite Sin is <> (Not Equal To) Justice

In order to "deserve" infinite punishment, you'd have to commit infinite sin, and your infinite sin would have to be proportional to the punishment (if the punishment is fire, your sin would have to be setting someone on fire) in order for it to truly be said that there was true justice or equity.

Charlie

 

[Gukkor]

Here's a simple formula for you.

Infinite punishment for Finite Sin is <> (Not Equal To) Justice

In order to "deserve" infinite punishment, you'd have to commit infinite sin, and your infinite sin would have to be proportional to the punishment (if the punishment is fire, your sin would have to be setting someone on fire) in order for it to truly be said that there was true justice or equity.

Charlie

Right, I've actually thought about that before.

Actually...if I knew that already, why did I still hold to the whole "we deserve infinite punishment" thing?

 

[Cassiopeia]

Right, I've actually thought about that before.

Actually...if I knew that already, why did I still hold to the whole "we deserve infinite punishment" thing?

Old traditions and especially religious tradition is hard to shake. Our faith and our beliefs are why we are who we are alot of the time and we base our actions and judgements on them alot.

I always heard that it is hard to teach an old dog new tricks but you know, that isn't true at all because all one must do is have a real conviction in their heart and mind and the change is easily made.

If we can just embrace the idea that our Divine Creator is a loving parent, the rest is easy

Peace my friend,
~Casi~

 

[Charlie V]

Right, I've actually thought about that before.

Actually...if I knew that already, why did I still hold to the whole "we deserve infinite punishment" thing?

Old traditions and especially religious tradition is hard to shake. Our faith and our beliefs are why we are who we are alot of the time and we base our actions and judgements on them alot.

I always heard that it is hard to teach an old dog new tricks but you know, that isn't true at all because all one must do is have a real conviction in their heart and mind and the change is easily made.

If we can just embrace the idea that our Divine Creator is a loving parent, the rest is easy

Peace my friend,
~Casi~

Perhaps a greater mystery is my case, which is sort of the opposite. I was raised with all the old traditions, all of them. But I didn't hold onto the idea that "we deserve infinite punishment."

The doctrine used to tear me apart. I remember as a child, crying, asking God, "Why? What has anyone done that they should be tormented forever?"

Then, I was filled with the Holy Spirit. And I knew. I knew the truth. All of it.

I never heard of "universalism." But the full doctrine -- well, it just came to me in a flash of God's Spirit.

Even the scriptural proofs came to me, all in that moment. Christ is the "savior of the world."

The angel said, "I bring good news of great joy which shall be for all people!"

He said on the cross, "Forgive them.."
NOT "because they believed that I'm God,"
NOT, "because they are Christians,"
NOT, "because they repented.."

He said, "Forgive them, for they know not what they do!"

Which is all of us, really, when we do wrong. If we really, really knew what we were doing, we'd never do wrong, ever.

And suddenly, I knew. I wondered for a long time why I was the only one on Earth who knew the truth, but I was grateful for the truth. It wasn't until many years later that I found out that I wasn't the only one who knew.

I do not have any explaination other than God's direct inspiration.

Charlie

 

[DailyBlessings]

Real truth is like a cherished childhood memory- it means everything to to one who holds it, and is trivial to most everyone else.

 

[Gukkor]

Perhaps a greater mystery is my case, which is sort of the opposite. I was raised with all the old traditions, all of them. But I didn't hold onto the idea that "we deserve infinite punishment."

The doctrine used to tear me apart. I remember as a child, crying, asking God, "Why? What has anyone done that they should be tormented forever?"

Then, I was filled with the Holy Spirit. And I knew. I knew the truth. All of it.

I never heard of "universalism." But the full doctrine -- well, it just came to me in a flash of God's Spirit.

Even the scriptural proofs came to me, all in that moment. Christ is the "savior of the world."

The angel said, "I bring good news of great joy which shall be for all people!"

He said on the cross, "Forgive them.."
NOT "because they believed that I'm God,"
NOT, "because they are Christians,"
NOT, "because they repented.."

He said, "Forgive them, for they know not what they do!"

Which is all of us, really, when we do wrong. If we really, really knew what we were doing, we'd never do wrong, ever.

And suddenly, I knew. I wondered for a long time why I was the only one on Earth who knew the truth, but I was grateful for the truth. It wasn't until many years later that I found out that I wasn't the only one who knew.

I do not have any explaination other than God's direct inspiration.

Charlie

Great testimony. It is truly wonderful that God had the mercy to slay that particular beast for you when you were too young to handle it yourself. Personally, universalism was something I came closer and closer to gradually over many years, slowly cleaving from the typical conservative Christian beliefs of my parents and developing beliefs of my own. When the doctrine of eternity in Hell finally reared its head in my mind, my beliefs were already liberal enough that I found myself more than willing to discard it. Looking back at when I was younger, however, I'm still left with regret over some of the foolish things I said on occasion, spurred on by the falsehoods I clung to back then.

 

[invisible trousers]

CF has taught me that hell is (or will be) generally inhabited by people who disagree with you.

 

[Gukkor]

CF has taught me that hell is (or will be) generally inhabited by people who disagree with you.

You deserve a medal for that. "Truest statement of the decade," it would say.

 

[Charlie V]

CF has taught me that hell is (or will be) generally inhabited by people who disagree with you.

That would be my heaven. Perhaps that's another reason to be a universalist.

How boring would be life in heaven where everyone is exactly like me, where everyone agrees with me!

Charlie