What is Hell? Who goes there? (moved from WWMC)

[Gukkor]

That would be my heaven. Perhaps that's another reason to be a universalist.

How boring would be life in heaven where everyone is exactly like me, where everyone agrees with me!

Charlie

Indeed. A large part of the reason why I've never shyed away from disagreeing with well-respected Christian authorities (I even question the validity of a few of Paul's comments).

Conflict is the spice of life. It is only bad when approached from an improper mindset.

 

[Vegas]

Let me ask this: If not eternal punishment or torment, which we all agree is unjust, and unGodly, what about annihalation... the ceasing to exist? We have life in Jesus, but without Jesus we have "not life"? We just cease to exist. No torture, no torment, no punishment.

 

[red77]

That would be my heaven. Perhaps that's another reason to be a universalist.

How boring would be life in heaven where everyone is exactly like me, where everyone agrees with me!

Charlie

Well I'm afraid I'm going to have to be boring and agree with both You and Gukkor.........sorry to be dull and all that.......!

 

[red77]

Old traditions and especially religious tradition is hard to shake. Our faith and our beliefs are why we are who we are alot of the time and we base our actions and judgements on them alot.

I always heard that it is hard to teach an old dog new tricks but you know, that isn't true at all because all one must do is have a real conviction in their heart and mind and the change is easily made.

If we can just embrace the idea that our Divine Creator is a loving parent, the rest is easy

Peace my friend,
~Casi~

True, I think as long as one can be open to change and genuine inside yourself then you can shake off the bonds of tradition, its sad when people are bound by their own doctrines and place them above the love of God, especially when the root of the bonds is fear which traditional teachings are grounded in.........If God is a loving parent, in fact the ultimate loving parent and people could see that then the church might finally get out of the dark ages with its darkness and doom and gloom..........

 

[Gukkor]

Let me ask this: If not eternal punishment or torment, which we all agree is unjust, and unGodly, what about annihalation... the ceasing to exist? We have life in Jesus, but without Jesus we have "not life"? We just cease to exist. No torture, no torment, no punishment.

Similarly UnGodly, I'd say. That'd be like a parent trying to teach a child something a few times, then giving up, saying "oh well," and killing the child in his sleep. It still assumes that God's patience is finite. The only difference between this and eternal torment is that instead of losing His temper with us and giving up, He just gives up.

 

[Im_A]

Let me ask this: If not eternal punishment or torment, which we all agree is unjust, and unGodly, what about annihalation... the ceasing to exist? We have life in Jesus, but without Jesus we have "not life"? We just cease to exist. No torture, no torment, no punishment.

my thoughts are like Gukkor's on annihaltionism. the complaint that eternal torment is evil, i don't see what the difference is, but merely details. how is not torment to just annihalate the person from existence? sure maybe the poetic expressions of books in the Bible wouldn't be ture of people screaming and gnashing of the teeth and while their flesh is burning away. but here they are given the life expectancy age to either one be saved, or two not be annihalated, and is 60 to 70 years alive on this earth, enough to rid whatever disease that human beings to sin? how is it just to give such a punishment for such a short finite time as 60 to 70 years?

the arguments against eternal torment, i see going right towards annihalationism. there's no better explaination by using annihaltionsm (sorry if my spelling is off for annihalationism at times here Vegas).

and if i'm still being vague, i think the question would be appropiate to ask...which one is more moral? to torment people, or annihalate someone? i almost wonder if eternal torment is more "moral" than to wipe away existence totally but that's hard saying that and believeing, just a curiosity of mine.

 

[Catherineanne]

I find this argument that "we all deserve hell" to be quite alarming and absurd. It's also not Biblical -- you have to take a number of verses totally out of context to distort the Bible to make such a claim.

Absolutely right. It is what in linguistic terms would be called a 'back formation'. Start with the conclusion that hell exists, and then that it is for sinners, and then that we are all sinners, and then conclude that we are less than earthworms. But assume that we, as humans, decide to create a torture for earthworms (who cannot help being what they are). It would say nothing about the worms, and everything about our own sadistic tendencies.

I think we have the dear Augustine to thank for this kind of thinking, which has clearly had the impact of a rabid epidemic in Christianity. But when Augustine was a small boy, he had a nurse who would not let him drink for hours on end (in North Africa!) when he was thirsty, because it was good for his soul to deny his body. Clearly we can deduce some damage from that kind of sadistic behaviour. Anyone think that is a good example for our nurseries to follow today, even for good Christian children? I sincerely hope not!!

As you say, there is no indication from Christ himself that he regarded any person he met as other than a brother or sister to himself, and worthy of God's mercy. Whether it was a disabled person, a 'sinner', a woman, a Samaritan, even a Roman, those who came to him were met with compassion and understanding.

Christ's message is clear. What we deserve is reconciliation with God, and how we achieve it is through accepting God's love for ourselves, and then sharing it with those around us.

 

[Catherineanne]

Fact is I interpret that verse in John as it is simply written. I fail to see why that is so hard to understand.....

Taking any verse of the Bible out of context of the rest of the Bible is like taking one bar out of Beethoven, and then saying, this is the whole Symphony.

You are unlikely to be right.

 

[Catherineanne]

Well, one more piece of chaff in my old beliefs to throw to the fire.

I'll get the burgers. >>>>>

 

[Catherineanne]

If we can just embrace the idea that our Divine Creator is a loving parent, the rest is easy

This can only be done if a person knows what a loving parent looks like. Sadly, some do not.

However, all is not lost. An alternative is to embrace our Divine Creator as either a loving brother or a friend. Hopefully most of us have one or other of those.

 

[Soul Searcher]

Let me ask this: If not eternal punishment or torment, which we all agree is unjust, and unGodly, what about annihalation... the ceasing to exist? We have life in Jesus, but without Jesus we have "not life"? We just cease to exist. No torture, no torment, no punishment.

Well that is certianly much more humane than eternal torment but like the others have said would indicate God giving up. Also when we consider the references in the bible to the resurection of the just and unjust it would imply that some people are brought back from the dead just so they can be killed again which really raises some flags in my mind.

The way I see it if there is by some chance someone who is beyond redemption then the only logical and merciful thing would be that when that person dies it is the end of thier existance, any resurection for purposes other than correction/rehabilatation would be totally unreasonable and eternal torment would be merciless beyond measure, only the most evil of beings could ever consider actually tormenting any helpless creature for eternity.

 

[Catherineanne]

Let me ask this: If not eternal punishment or torment, which we all agree is unjust, and unGodly, what about annihalation... the ceasing to exist? We have life in Jesus, but without Jesus we have "not life"? We just cease to exist. No torture, no torment, no punishment.

I am not aware of any Scripture to equate not currently being in the state of having (eternal) life with annihilation in eternity. It certainly forms no part of Our Lord's words.

 

[Vegas]

I am not aware of any Scripture to equate not currently being in the state of having (eternal) life with annihilation in eternity. It certainly forms no part of Our Lord's words.

From dust you came and to dust you will return...

 

[Vegas]

Similarly UnGodly, I'd say. That'd be like a parent trying to teach a child something a few times, then giving up, saying "oh well," and killing the child in his sleep. It still assumes that God's patience is finite. The only difference between this and eternal torment is that instead of losing His temper with us and giving up, He just gives up.

Not giving up... you have your life, when it's over it's over. What makes us think our spirit was originally created to exist forever?

 

[Gukkor]

Not giving up... you have your life, when it's over it's over. What makes us think our spirit was originally created to exist forever?

The fact that ultimately, nothing ever truly ceases to exist. It simply passes into a different state.

 

[Vegas]

The fact that ultimately, nothing ever truly ceases to exist. It simply passes into a different state.

That's fine for substance... ice becomes water becomes free hydrogen and oxygen...

Our "self" is not substance. It is a creation of our mind and experience... our spirit is not substance... why can't it just cease to exist? No pain, no awareness, nothing

 

[Im_A]

From dust you came and to dust you will return...

how does that prove annihaltionism? that shows the natural process for this life.

 

[Im_A]

That's fine for substance... ice becomes water becomes free hydrogen and oxygen...

Our "self" is not substance. It is a creation of our mind and experience... our spirit is not substance... why can't it just cease to exist? No pain, no awareness, nothing

since we're talking about a speculative topic here, meaning the afterlife, can you imagine being in a reality that isn't finite but infinite? a reality that isn't bound by being a human being?

so all your saying that our self is, is some chemical reaction in our brain from our actions? if so that's sad if that's all our "self" is. and if our spirit is not substance, that doesn't make sense that your asking about just ceasing to exist? your basically stating that this "self" or "soul" will cease to exist, in other words be like what substance is, finite/tangible which seems to be something your getting away from through your examples.

we can't define the soul, or the self, thus any support to define it, or critical analysis to dismiss it are views based in ignorance (ignorance that is not the person's fault because we are still alive, hence, it becomes speculation only.) all i think we can assume there is a change of substance if there is life after this one, cause this whole creation/being, ends when we return to the dust we were born from. our souls may have the capability to be destroyed by God, but our humanity ends at death. that's a world we can't comprhend, and it may not be like a transition that ice goes through, but that is an insanely different state to say the least.

 

[threedog]

I can tell you are clearly a seeker and that is a good thing! Just be clear that evidence of a world wide flood is very very sparse. If the flood story which appears in many cultures is not a world wide occurance, but a reoccurring event in limited geographical locations and it is exaggerated in tale for moral purposes... it becomes much less clear that God is dissappointed in us... AFTER ALL... God created us and said it was good. (God is neither a liar nor a shabby workman)

You made some excellent points! However, the problem is that the Great flood is documented in the Bible as the destruction of all mankind. Also the quote you use that "It was good" is also in the Bible. If we question some parts of the Bible (the Great Flood) to make a point, we might as well examine it all (" It was Good") in the spirit of finding meaning and truth. I wonder if God is looking down at us now thinking all is well, all is good. I don't think so.

Threedog

 

[Vegas]

You made some excellent points! However, the problem is that the Great flood is documented in the Bible as the destruction of all mankind. Also the quote you use that "It was good" is also in the Bible. If we question some parts of the Bible (the Great Flood) to make a point, we might as well examine it all (" It was Good") in the spirit of finding meaning and truth. I wonder if God is looking down at us now thinking all is well, all is good. I don't think so.

Threedog

I think one needs to examine it all... in the same way one reads the newspaper, a dictionary or a text book...

If it isn't all good, then God didn't do a good job creating. We aren't powerful enough to undo God's goodness... sure bad things happen... but like the expression goes "it's all good".