What is Hell? Who goes there? (moved from WWMC)

[Pats]

MOD HAT ON:

HI! This thread has been moved from WWMC to Liberal Theology at the OP's request. Please feel free to discuss Annihilationism and any other views on the OP as you see fit as long as it applies to the OP's request of liberal/non-fundamentalist viewpoints.

Thanks!

Constance

MOD HAT OFF:

...

 

[Mailman Dan]

Then we are universally damned, for Christ was insufficient. Either the debt is paid or it isn't. He died for all men, not just Christians.

Please pick up your bible and read it. Even the most basic of scriptures, such as John 3:16, state that Christ is the only way. One does not have auto-salvation because He died.

The forgiveness that is in Jesus Christ is conditional upon "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 20:21). It is a gift that God offers to everyone, but individuals must receive it by repenting and trusting in Christ, or they will remain dead in their sins. No one has biblical grounds to continue in sin, assuming that they are safe just because Jesus died on the cross. See 1 John 3:4–6.

And you have an example in Scripture of what he actually did do, when placed in the position of judge towards a guilty woman. Why do you ignore this?

The Christian is not "judging others" but simply telling the world of God’s judgment —that God (not the Christian) has judged all the world as being guilty before Him (Romans 3:19,23). Jesus was able to offer that woman forgiveness for her sin, be-cause He was on His way to die on the cross for her. She acknowledged Him as "Lord," but He still told her, "Go, and sin no more." If she didn’t repent, she would perish.

Dan~~~>notes that Jesus warned alot of people about judgement (as scripture shows)

 

[Soul Searcher]

The forgiveness that is in Jesus Christ is conditional upon "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 20:21). It is a gift that God offers to everyone, but individuals must receive it by repenting and trusting in Christ, or they will remain dead in their sins. No one has biblical grounds to continue in sin, assuming that they are safe just because Jesus died on the cross. See 1 John 3:4–6.

And what does repentance actually mean to you?

 

[Gukkor]

Please pick up your bible and read it. Even the most basic of scriptures, such as John 3:16, state that Christ is the only way. One does not have auto-salvation because He died.

The forgiveness that is in Jesus Christ is conditional upon "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ" (Acts 20:21). It is a gift that God offers to everyone, but individuals must receive it by repenting and trusting in Christ, or they will remain dead in their sins. No one has biblical grounds to continue in sin, assuming that they are safe just because Jesus died on the cross. See 1 John 3:4–6.

I've no need to be insulted by the likes of you making foolish assumptions about my Bible-reading habits. I've never assumed that it was alright to sin simply because our debt is paid. God will still rebuke Christian and non-Christian alike for their sins, for this is often the only way we will learn. For if we are saved but our lives are not changed for the better, if we are still unfaithful in Christ in our refusal to love each other, what has really been accomplished?

No, the only wrath of God that I deny is the meaningless, eternal "judgement" that you seem to believe in. God brings the Good News that we may pursue Him out of love. He does not bring the Divine Ultimatum that we may pursue Him out of selfish fear.

Read: http://pantheon.yale.edu/~kd47/univ.htm

 

[Catherineanne]

Godd is good. He gave us a way out through Christ. But to say that God is not going to bring judgement and wrath on those who do evil, is absolutley wrong. Please read the scripture.

Dan~~~>can't cut out that half of God

You have a God of two contradictory halves, and you focus on the one of wrath and judgement, as if that wrath somehow takes precedence over love. That, imo, is unBiblical.

I have a God without contradiction, who is Love, Mercy and Compassion, and who is revealed as such in Our Lord. He is the same from everlasting to everlasting, and has no contradictions, no tantrums, no episodes of temper or of vengeance.

This is nothing to do with reading Scripture. I can read as much as the next person. But I can also experience, and interpret, and my experience and interpretation is not the same as yours.

Mine is rooted in the person of Our Lord, God Incarnate. You can quote Scripture until you are blue in the face, but nothing overrides the person and example of Our Lord.

 

[Catherineanne]

Please pick up your bible and read it. Even the most basic of scriptures, such as John 3:16, state that Christ is the only way.

Not necessarily. You appear to see what you want to see.

John 3.16

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

= a means, not stated to be the only means, towards salvation

John 3.17

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.

= purpose, clearly stated to be salvation, and not condemnation.

 

[Catherineanne]

I've no need to be insulted by the likes of you making foolish assumptions about my Bible-reading habits. I've never assumed that it was alright to sin simply because our debt is paid.

There appear to be two fundamentally different views of what it is to be human here.

On the one hand we have the person who needs to be constrained by fear, who is assumed (and assumes himself) to be evil, and who is ruled with a rod of iron, and a hard hand. Translated into parenting we have a child assumed to be evil until the evil is beaten out of him, one way or another, and good beaten in. This results in a faith born of fear and emotional destruction, and a resentment of anyone who seems to have found a path to God which is not equally strewn with thistles, rocks and stones. This faith is not one which allows for maturity, but rather seeks to keep the victim an eternal infant, eternally beaten by the parental rod, and eternally condemned as the naughty child, who can never win, because the parent always judges, and the child is never, ever, right. God has become an eternal sadistic parent, and in modern terms, also a child abuser.

On the other hand, we have the person who recognises in God a different kind of parent. The parent who does not rebuke an innocent child with blows and harshness, but nurtures and consoles, picks us up after we fall, dusts us down, sets us on our feet again and says, have another go. This parent allows the child to grow to maturity, and to learn what it is to be an adult; that it is about making choices, and about making mistakes, and taking responsibility for those mistakes, but it is also about having an adult relationship with an adult God. Nothing to do with sin, but everything to do with relationship, with growth and with love. God here is who he always has been; patiently waiting for us to get the message.

 

[Catherineanne]

Jesus was able to offer that woman forgiveness for her sin, be-cause He was on His way to die on the cross for her. She acknowledged Him as "Lord," but He still told her, "Go, and sin no more." If she didn’t repent, she would perish.

Your interpretation is very interesting, but has very little grounding in what the Bible actually says.

Our Lord was able to offer forgiveness for sin because he was God Incarnate. Even if he had died in his bed following a bout of measles, his forgiveness would still stand. He chose to die on the cross as a symbol of a blood offering, in line with Jewish tradition, but that was a choice, not a constraint on God.

There is no indication in Scripture that the forgiveness given to the woman caught in adultery was conditional on repentance. It is very clear, if you pick up your Bible and read it, that it is born of mercy and compassion, and is given unconditionally. it is not the kind of judgment you seem to have in mind. Judgement means making a decision based on the evidence; it does not necessarily mean condemnation out of hand.

Imo, this woman's judgement happened when she faced Christ, and it is a type of the judgement that all of us will face. Christ understands, shows compassion, and has mercy, and tells her to sin no more. But when she does (as inevitably everyone does) his message is the same again. Understanding, compassion and mercy.

He tells us to forgive our brothers seventy times seven. Can God forgive fewer times than we can?

 

[Mailman Dan]

I have a God without contradiction, who is Love, Mercy and Compassion, and who is revealed as such in Our Lord. He is the same from everlasting to everlasting, and has no contradictions, no tantrums, no episodes of temper or of vengeance.

Mark 11

15 So they came to Jerusalem. Then Jesus went into the temple and began to drive out those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. 16 And He would not allow anyone to carry wares through the temple. 17 Then He taught, saying to them, “Is it not written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations’?[But you have made it a ‘den of thieves.’”[



Why do you believe that God will not punish evil in the way the bible describes?

ot necessarily. You appear to see what you want to see.

John 3.16

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

= a means, not stated to be the only means, towards salvation

John 3.17

For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.

= purpose, clearly stated to be salvation, and not condemnation.

You left on the next verse..

John 3:18
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."


Condemned to what exactly?


Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Where are they departing too?

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

How do you overlook this?

Luke 12:4-5 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!"

Could Jesus have been any more clear?

BTW, in another point of view, what type of bible verse do you think would be needed to prove to you that such a place is real? What exactly would it need to say?

I've no need to be insulted by the likes of you making foolish assumptions about my Bible-reading habits.

I don't know your bible reading habits. I was merly trying to get you to dig up some scripture for your view points. (deep studies on this topic)

Dan~~~>loves the conversation of opinions, but bases facts on scripture

 

[Cassiopeia]

Mark 11

15 So they came to Jerusalem. Then Jesus went into the temple and began to drive out those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. 16 And He would not allow anyone to carry wares through the temple. 17 Then He taught, saying to them, “Is it not written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations’?[But you have made it a ‘den of thieves.’”[



Why do you believe that God will not punish evil in the way the bible describes?



You left on the next verse..

John 3:18
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."


Condemned to what exactly?


Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Where are they departing too?

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

How do you overlook this?

Luke 12:4-5 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!"

Could Jesus have been any more clear?

BTW, in another point of view, what type of bible verse do you think would be needed to prove to you that such a place is real? What exactly would it need to say?




I don't know your bible reading habits. I was merly trying to get you to dig up some scripture for your view points. (deep studies on this topic)

Dan~~~>loves the conversation of opinions, but bases facts on scripture

I am going to call you Danny...is that okay? Boy, I shudder to think how fearful your daily walk must be. I hate to break it to you but the scriptures aren't "fact". They are sacred text. A history of the lives of many people including Jesus. And since Jesus himself did not put pen to paper to create them we can only rely on the ability of others to recite the stories handed down to them. So at best...inspired scripture..at worst...possible hearsay.

I would also like to point out to you Danny, that just because Catherineanne doesn't parot scary scriptures, is no cause to accuse her of not reading her scriptures and particularly not in depth. I have found her to be quite lucid and well read. Her life is not fear based.

Why do you choose to live in fear of the very God you worship? Is not the faith and love you have in Jesus enough to motivate you to a life committed to his teachings? Come now, don't tell me I am wrong here. I think you are getting some pleasure out of this posting of such horrifying scripture...* good deal taken out of context by the way*. Does it motivate you? Do you feel superior in this venue you choose? What is it that drives you Danny? Is it the love of Jesus? If you feel it is, your actions and words are not showing it.

~Casi~ (you have ruined my using parenthetical quotes now)

 

[Gukkor]

Mark 11

15 So they came to Jerusalem. Then Jesus went into the temple and began to drive out those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. 16 And He would not allow anyone to carry wares through the temple. 17 Then He taught, saying to them, “Is it not written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations’?[But you have made it a ‘den of thieves.’”[



Why do you believe that God will not punish evil in the way the bible describes?



You left on the next verse..

John 3:18
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."


Condemned to what exactly?


Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Where are they departing too?

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

How do you overlook this?

Luke 12:4-5 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!"

Could Jesus have been any more clear?

BTW, in another point of view, what type of bible verse do you think would be needed to prove to you that such a place is real? What exactly would it need to say?




I don't know your bible reading habits. I was merly trying to get you to dig up some scripture for your view points. (deep studies on this topic)

Dan~~~>loves the conversation of opinions, but bases facts on scripture

Just out of curiosity, any particular reason why you made "liar" bold?

 

[Charlie V]

Mark 11

15 So they came to Jerusalem. Then Jesus went into the temple and began to drive out those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. 16 And He would not allow anyone to carry wares through the temple. 17 Then He taught, saying to them, “Is it not written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations’?[But you have made it a ‘den of thieves.’”

Why do you believe that God will not punish evil in the way the bible describes?

Of course there is correction and chastisement.

Why do you not believe that God will remove sin, as far as the east is from the west, in the way the Bible describes?

John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Condemned to what exactly?

It tells you right there. Read the next few verses.

The light comes into the world, but man hides in the darkness.

"Already" = the present time, not from the point of death through eternity.

"Into the world" = this world, our lives. The condemnation is the time spent during this precious life, living in the darkness.

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Where are they departing too?

The verses don't name a specific location, nor do they suggest or imply that the departing will be forever. They in fact, only suggest that the departing is only to be as long as they continue to do iniquity.

But of course, that verse was part of an entire discourse full of metaphor, I could say much more about this one but you listed many and my time is precious.

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

The lake of fire, was of course, gehenna, in the valley of Hinnom .

How do you overlook this?

Luke 12:4-5 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!"

Could Jesus have been any more clear?

No, but the English translation leaves something to be desired.

"Gehenna," mistranslated "hell," is the valley of Hinnom, where the religious leaders, the Sanhedrim or the government's soldiers might cast a person.

A far more frightful death, where you are not even dignified a proper burial, so one should fear he who may cast you into the valley of Hinnom.

Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Could he have been more clear?

Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Could he have been more clear?

And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world.

Could he have been more clear?



Charlie

 

[red77]

Of course there is correction and chastisement.

Why do you not believe that God will remove sin, as far as the east is from the west, in the way the Bible describes?




It tells you right there. Read the next few verses.

The light comes into the world, but man hides in the darkness.

"Already" = the present time, not from the point of death through eternity.

"Into the world" = this world, our lives. The condemnation is the time spent during this precious life, living in the darkness.



The verses don't name a specific location, nor do they suggest or imply that the departing will be forever. They in fact, only suggest that the departing is only to be as long as they continue to do iniquity.

But of course, that verse was part of an entire discourse full of metaphor, I could say much more about this one but you listed many and my time is precious.



The lake of fire, was of course, gehenna, in the valley of Hinnom .

How do you overlook this?



No, but the English translation leaves something to be desired.

"Gehenna," mistranslated "hell," is the valley of Hinnom, where the religious leaders, the Sanhedrim or the government's soldiers might cast a person.

A far more frightful death, where you are not even dignified a proper burial, so one should fear he who may cast you into the valley of Hinnom.



Could he have been more clear?



Could he have been more clear?



Could he have been more clear?



Charlie

 

[red77]

Matthew 7:22-23
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You know its funny but when I read this passage it seems to be directed at 'christians'.......who else would try to prophesy in Jesus name or cast out devils........or in his name do many wonderful works..........? What i gather from this is that the central tenent of being 'christian' is to show love and compassion towards others........something that gets lost amidst all the 'hell' mongering.......

 

[Mailman Dan]

You know its funny but when I read this passage it seems to be directed at 'christians'.......who else would try to prophesy in Jesus name or cast out devils........or in his name do many wonderful works..........? What i gather from this is that the central tenent of being 'christian' is to show love and compassion towards others........something that gets lost amidst all the 'hell' mongering.....

Matthew 7

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

As you can see, its directed at people who "thought" they were Christians. However, in order for you to accept this verse at all, you'd first have to admit there is seperation from God.

Also, according to the verse, the word Lawlessnes or iniquity (means the same thing) speaks directly against those who lived their life outside of scriptual teachings.

Just out of curiosity, any particular reason why you made "liar" bold?

That has to do with the gateway search engine. When you look up key words and cross reference text, it highlights the words in the text. Since I cut and paste alot, the highlight transfers over. (you'll see that alot when I post scripture)

Of course there is correction and chastisement.

Many people on earth escape this. You however, hold a different view than many here, with a temporary place of punishment. That itself doesn't agree with most of those posting here.

But of course, that verse was part of an entire discourse full of metaphor, I could say much more about this one but you listed many and my time is precious.

I'm sure it is, as is mine. I'm trying to save souls by showing them why they need Christ. We also already covered these arguements before in the Universalist threads, and you know who those were written too and the context of the chapters.

Dan~~~>sees the same people in the same threads all over the board (making the same arguements....but i'm sure you do too)

 

[Cassiopeia]

I'm trying to save souls by showing them why they need Christ.

Ever read the scripture about removing the beam in your own eye first? Who are you to judge who needs their soul saved?

 

[red77]

Dan~~~>sees the same people in the same threads all over the board (making the same arguements....but i'm sure you do too)

[/QUOTE]

Not really, I see you avoiding most of them.........

 

[geegee10]

what is hell?Hell is where people goes when they are separated by God..as a christian i think people who goes there are the people who dont accept christ..people who are not gods children..i dont know who they are but God definitely knows...thats all..thanx..godbless u all..

 

[Cassiopeia]

what is hell?Hell is where people goes when they are separated by God..as a christian i think people who goes there are the people who dont accept christ..people who are not gods children..i dont know who they are but God definitely knows...thats all..thanx..godbless u all..

We are ALL God's children. This is not an exclusive club here.

 

[Cassiopeia]

what is hell?Hell is where people goes when they are separated by God..as a christian i think people who goes there are the people who dont accept christ..people who are not gods children..i dont know who they are but God definitely knows...thats all..thanx..godbless u all..

We are all God's children. This isn't some exclusive country club.