What is Heaven?

[ClothedInGrace]

Hello all,

What does the Bible say about heaven? Is it simply a reference to all that is above or is it a spiritual place?

I've been studying the use of the word in the Old and New Testaments and have made the discovery that there isn't much exposition about heaven being the place most Christians commonly think about. Most see heaven as a spiritual place which exists in another dimension, but the Bible simply talks about heaven as the sky and everything above us. When the Jews spoke about heaven, they were not referring to some spiritual place, but rather the very sky and heavens above them. Where did the transition from heaven being an actual place to it being a spiritual place occur? There is no use of it that I know of in the Old Testament where it is referred to in a spiritual sense, so why do we understand it in this way?

This is the resource I used to study the word use if you would like to see this for yourself: https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=heaven&t=NASB#s=s_primary_0_1

Go through chronologically and you won't find any mention of heaven being a spiritual place. We simply read our traditions into the text.

Why do so many Christians seem confident in their understanding of heaven, hell, angels, demons, death, and that which is unseen? It confuses me so much. Any help with this would be greatly appreciated, but please back up your answers with scriptures, not sentiment.

 

[Hieronymus]

Actually, it's "the Heavens", and that's also known as "the unseen realm".
There are different levels / heavens.
The occult for instance, is about interacting with the "lower heavens", where spiritualists find their spirits, so to speak.
The Father however is only to be reached through Christ.
God is in the Holy Heavens, so to speak.

...yes, citation needed, i guess...

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Can someone please share from scripture the truth about the heavens? A step further would be an explanation of angelic beings. I just don't want to be fooled by tradition; I want the scriptures to tell me what these things are. Is Heaven simply an all-encompassing term for everything above us? Or is it referring specifically to the "third" heaven. Is there a spiritual heaven and a physical heaven?

Thanks for all your help.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The idea of there being numbered heavens, best as I understand it, comes from the time of the second temple. In the literature of Enoch there are seven heavens, the third heaven containing the Garden of Eden. It's this sort of language that seems to be used by St. Paul when he says he knew a man who was caught up into the third heaven.

I'm not, however, of the opinion that it is particularly prudent to attempt to chart a "geography" of heaven. I think that's largely missing the forest for the trees.

The idea in the Old Testament seems to consistently be that God is way bigger, far more vast, and much more than "the heavens"--i.e. "all that stuff up there". As such the language used is that "the heavens are Your throne, and the earth Your footstool" or Solomon saying, "The heavens, not even the highest heavens, can contain You".

Heaven is also used as a euphemism for God by the time of Jesus. Not just among Jews, but "heaven" as an idiomatic expression referring to "the gods" was known in the Roman pagan world as well. As a euphemism for God we can see this in its use in Matthew's Gospel where in Mark and Luke use "kingdom of God" Matthew prefers "kingdom of heaven", the meaning being identical. This isn't a place "up there", this is the reign and royal authority of God come down, present through Christ and inaugurated by Him; being both now and not yet.

So it's not hard to see why the idea of "heaven" also being descriptive of God's immanent presence exists, and so the angels of God dwell in His presence "in the heavens", etc.

What we ought to be cautious of is in thinking that there is some celestial location where God is; God is everywhere. There is no place where God isn't, the Psalmist writes, "Where can I go from Your Spirit, where can I hide from Your presence? If I ascend to the heavens You are there, if I make my bed in She'ol, You are there." And the Apostle writes In Ephesians 4 that we believe in one God and Father "of all, over all, through all, and in all" and quoting the Greek poet the Apostle in Acts 17 says, "in Him we move and breathe and have our being".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ClothedInGrace]

The idea of there being numbered heavens, best as I understand it, comes from the time of the second temple. In the literature of Enoch there are seven heavens, the third heaven containing the Garden of Eden. It's this sort of language that seems to be used by St. Paul when he says he knew a man who was caught up into the third heaven.

I'm not, however, of the opinion that it is particularly prudent to attempt to chart a "geography" of heaven. I think that's largely missing the forest for the trees.

The idea in the Old Testament seems to consistently be that God is way bigger, far more vast, and much more than "the heavens"--i.e. "all that stuff up there". As such the language used is that "the heavens are Your throne, and the earth Your footstool" or Solomon saying, "The heavens, not even the highest heavens, can contain You".

Heaven is also used as a euphemism for God by the time of Jesus. Not just among Jews, but "heaven" as an idiomatic expression referring to "the gods" was known in the Roman pagan world as well. As a euphemism for God we can see this in its use in Matthew's Gospel where in Mark and Luke use "kingdom of God" Matthew prefers "kingdom of heaven", the meaning being identical. This isn't a place "up there", this is the reign and royal authority of God come down, present through Christ and inaugurated by Him; being both now and not yet.

So it's not hard to see why the idea of "heaven" also being descriptive of God's immanent presence exists, and so the angels of God dwell in His presence "in the heavens", etc.

What we ought to be cautious of is in thinking that there is some celestial location where God is; God is everywhere. There is no place where God isn't, the Psalmist writes, "Where can I go from Your Spirit, where can I hide from Your presence? If I ascend to the heavens You are there, if I make my bed in She'ol, You are there." And the Apostle writes In Ephesians 4 that we believe in one God and Father "of all, over all, through all, and in all" and quoting the Greek poet the Apostle in Acts 17 says, "in Him we move and breathe and have our being".

-CryptoLutheran

Thanks for your feedback. I just have several questions:
1. Can we trust the literature of Enoch? Did Paul read it?
2. If Heaven is not a place, then where is Jesus, the throne, and the place where John's vision was? Was it metaphoric?
3. Where are angels presently?
4. Why is this so confusing?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Thanks for your feedback. I just have several questions:
1. Can we trust the literature of Enoch? Did Paul read it?
2. If Heaven is not a place, then where is Jesus, the throne, and the place where John's vision was? Was it metaphoric?
3. Where are angels presently?
4. Why is this so confusing?

1. I don't think we should put too much focus on Enochian literature, at least not outside of a more academic context to get a feel for the ideas and thoughts of the period. Paul was likely familiar with it, it was rather well known at the time. The much later work of the Epistle of St. Jude quotes from it.

2. The only answer as to where the Lord is is that He is seated at the right hand of the Father. Asking "where" the Lord is as though there's some point in cosmic geography where Jesus currently resides is, I think, possibly missing the point and also, fundamentally, outside the scope of anything we could possibly know or understand . John's vision was just that--a vision.

3. The angels are described as being in God's presence. I don't think we should say much more than this.

4. Largely because we're small, finite creatures whose sole understanding of how things operate is limited to a three dimensions of space and one dimension of time (space-time).

There's a book by the name of Flatland (which has been adapted into works of animation as well) where the protagonist is an inhabitant of Flatland and is a 2-square; in the storyhe has a dream where he visits the 1-dimensional land of Lineland, the people of Lineland are incapable of comprehending a 2-dimensional being and can only perceive him in their one dimension. Later Square is himself visited by a 3-dimensional sphere from Spaceland, Square has no concept of a 3-dimensional being and can only perceive Sphere in his two dimensions. Square is finally convinced of the third dimension, and then speaks to Sphere of a possible fourth dimension, and Sphere--naturally--scoffs at the idea.

The purpose of the work was actually to satirize aspects of 19th century Victorian culture in England, but has continued to be fascinating for many because of the way it talks about the limitations of perception and comprehension. Us talking about the things of God is a lot like Square trying to wrap his head around the existence of Sphere and the third dimension.

Apart from what God reveals to us we really can't say anything about Him. And so our language of "heaven" is likewise going to be somewhat fragile; it is perhaps better to admit that we really don't know much of anything rather than to force our own ideas on something that is tremendously bigger than we are.

Asking "where is heaven?" or "if the Lord ascended to the right hand of the Father, where is He (in relation to us)?" can result in us trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ClothedInGrace]

1. I don't think we should put too much focus on Enochian literature, at least not outside of a more academic context to get a feel for the ideas and thoughts of the period. Paul was likely familiar with it, it was rather well known at the time. The much later work of the Epistle of St. Jude quotes from it.

2. The only answer as to where the Lord is is that He is seated at the right hand of the Father. Asking "where" the Lord is as though there's some point in cosmic geography where Jesus currently resides is, I think, possibly missing the point and also, fundamentally, outside the scope of anything we could possibly know or understand . John's vision was just that--a vision.

3. The angels are described as being in God's presence. I don't think we should say much more than this.

4. Largely because we're small, finite creatures whose sole understanding of how things operate is limited to a three dimensions of space and one dimension of time (space-time).

There's a book by the name of Flatland (which has been adapted into works of animation as well) where the protagonist is an inhabitant of Flatland and is a 2-square; in the storyhe has a dream where he visits the 1-dimensional land of Lineland, the people of Lineland are incapable of comprehending a 2-dimensional being and can only perceive him in their one dimension. Later Square is himself visited by a 3-dimensional sphere from Spaceland, Square has no concept of a 3-dimensional being and can only perceive Sphere in his two dimensions. Square is finally convinced of the third dimension, and then speaks to Sphere of a possible fourth dimension, and Sphere--naturally--scoffs at the idea.

The purpose of the work was actually to satirize aspects of 19th century Victorian culture in England, but has continued to be fascinating for many because of the way it talks about the limitations of perception and comprehension. Us talking about the things of God is a lot like Square trying to wrap his head around the existence of Sphere and the third dimension.

Apart from what God reveals to us we really can't say anything about Him. And so our language of "heaven" is likewise going to be somewhat fragile; it is perhaps better to admit that we really don't know much of anything rather than to force our own ideas on something that is tremendously bigger than we are.

Asking "where is heaven?" or "if the Lord ascended to the right hand of the Father, where is He (in relation to us)?" can result in us trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

-CryptoLutheran

Good answers. Thank you for contributing!

 

[BobRyan]

Hello all,

What does the Bible say about heaven? Is it simply a reference to all that is above or is it a spiritual place?

I've been studying the use of the word in the Old and New Testaments and have made the discovery that there isn't much exposition about heaven being the place most Christians commonly think about. Most see heaven as a spiritual place which exists in another dimension, but the Bible simply talks about heaven as the sky and everything above us. When the Jews spoke about heaven, they were not referring to some spiritual place, but rather the very sky and heavens above them. Where did the transition from heaven being an actual place to it being a spiritual place occur? There is no use of it that I know of in the Old Testament where it is referred to in a spiritual sense, so why do we understand it in this way?

This is the resource I used to study the word use if you would like to see this for yourself: https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=heaven&t=NASB#s=s_primary_0_1

Go through chronologically and you won't find any mention of heaven being a spiritual place. We simply read our traditions into the text.

Why do so many Christians seem confident in their understanding of heaven, hell, angels, demons, death, and that which is unseen? It confuses me so much. Any help with this would be greatly appreciated, but please back up your answers with scriptures, not sentiment.

Rev 21 and 22 describe heaven pretty well. It is a place - and in it is the throne of God, the tree of life, the "New Jerusalem".

At some point - after the Rev 20 one thousand year millennium that new Jerusalem comes to earth - and the earth is "re-made"