What is Heaven actually like?

[gracelandz]

Is it really a free-will choice to believe? I'm sure you're aware that there is another Christian doctrine claiming that God has already determined who will be saved. And if God is the ultimate sovereign, that actually makes more sense. God's grand plan for the universe would, by logic, encompass everything. Even down to the smallest detail. Such as whether I accept Jesus or not.

(I have corrected my post - yes, I did mean to say 'free-will choice' but had written 'willful choice.' The context of my entry was to mean a non-coerced choice, as opposed to a calculated choice to believe in Jesus Christ. A calculated choice of self-preservation will not gain entry into heaven. Jesus said that no one can enter the kingdom of God unless we are born again of water and the Spirit, and that being born of God cannot be circumvented by human deceitfulness or cunning.

John 1:12-13
"Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.")

Yes, I am well aware of the doctrine of pre-destination... not something I delve into.

What I do know is that God is Creator. A planet (if it could speak) is not in a position to question God's moral decision as to why it was created and placed in a particular location in the universe.

God is all-knowing. I am but a mere man, and I know only in part. I do not have the capacity to explain nor comprehend the so-called doctrine of pre-destination. If I were to try and grasp the boundaries of Omniscience, I would be like a drop of water attempting to contain the ocean. I would expect that the evidence of this particular virtue would rip the very fabric of my mortal intellect.

I do believe however, that God's Omniscience and Omnipotence are intertwined with the rest of His virtues - Holiness, Love, Wisdom, Goodness, Justice, Mercy...

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[Giberoo]

Caring is a job. For example, that is what a nurse does. It could be a job you like to do.

That's 'caring' in the sense of 'taking care of'.

I meant it to mean 'feeling empathy for'.

 

[Giberoo]

Teaching in New Testament is not passive at all. It is very very positive. What to do is much more important than what not to do.

You misinterpreted the word 'passive'. I meant it is a less violent book and champions forgiveness over aggression.

The Old Testament is still very necessary. It is the foundation of the New Testament. The record of killings in the Old Testament are lessons, not examples.

And the lessons seem to be 'God will brutally destroy you if you disobey Him'.

You seem to be in a theological bind here. The Old Testament is part of your Holy Book - and as you admit, an important one. It cannot just be dismissed. And yet it also contains many atrocities and instances of God behaving in the manner of a psychotic despot.

 

[Forge3]

I don't know. But when I was a child and delighted in simple joys I think that is akin to His kingdom.

 

[juvenissun]

That's 'caring' in the sense of 'taking care of'.

I meant it to mean 'feeling empathy for'.

The Bible tells us that we will not feel sorrow, but can still feel happy in the Heaven. I don't know how would it work, but that is one nature of the Heaven. Logically, I think the description is reasonable.

 

[juvenissun]

You misinterpreted the word 'passive'. I meant it is a less violent book and champions forgiveness over aggression.



And the lessons seem to be 'God will brutally destroy you if you disobey Him'.

You seem to be in a theological bind here. The Old Testament is part of your Holy Book - and as you admit, an important one. It cannot just be dismissed. And yet it also contains many atrocities and instances of God behaving in the manner of a psychotic despot.

The Old Testament is a record of Jews chosen and lead by God. It is a history of man, not God. It describes a training process given by God to Jews. Jewish nation needed to go from non-existence to existence. Violence is a necessary part of the process. What would you do if you were the supreme leader to Joshua when he is fighting for his tribes on his future nation? Political negotiation with Canaanites?

 

[juvenissun]

I don't know. But when I was a child and delighted in simple joys I think that is akin to His kingdom.

Very good.

 

[Giberoo]

The Bible tells us that we will not feel sorrow, but can still feel happy in the Heaven. I don't know how would it work, but that is one nature of the Heaven. Logically, I think the description is reasonable.

Do you? I think it is sinister.

My mother is an atheist. If I convert and go to Heaven, you are essentially saying that I will stop caring about my own mother as soon as I step through the pearly gates. That's horrible. I don't want to stop caring about her - I love her. And saying I will simply stop loving her and be totally unmoved by the idea that she is barred from Heaven and I will never see her again (quite aside from whether she is being actively tortured in agony in Hell, thanks to the deity I am spending eternity worshipping) is creepy and repulsive. This is starting to sound like A Clockwork Orange.

Think about what you are advocating. Does it REALLY actually make sense to you?

 

[Giberoo]

The Old Testament is a record of Jews chosen and lead by God. It is a history of man, not God.

God is a principle character in the Old Testament - arguabley THE principle character - so it is a history of Him too.

It describes a training process given by God to Jews. Jewish nation needed to go from non-existence to existence. Violence is a necessary part of the process.

Why? Why is violence a necessary part of that process? Surely an omnipotent deity can achieve His ends however He wishes? Otherwise He is not omnipotent. Why is He constrained by a necessity for violence?

What would you do if you were the supreme leader to Joshua when he is fighting for his tribes on his future nation? Political negotiation with Canaanites?

If I was an omnipotent deity, I could come up with a thousand better ways of evicting the Promised Land's native inhabitants than wholesale slaughter. If we are to allow that God is omnipotent - or even remotely powerful at all - then the only reason we can allow for his massacre of the Canaanites is that he actually approves of genocide. And this is, may I add, the being many Christians claim to be the font of all morality...

 

[Gracchus]

I always liked the idea of "The Big Rock Candy Mountain".
Although in my youth I did sort of fancy the idea of an endless field paved with naked girls, I realized that would be truly problematic.
So I would like endless books, movies, music, ... Kind of like what I have here and now, but without all the annoying morons, and maybe a baby or two to remind me of love.

 

[gracelandz]

So it is perfectly possible to be miserable in Heaven?

Scripture says no misery.
Revelations 21
1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

This is an interesting one. There is no sin in Heaven?

I hope you would agree that even the very best-intentioned among us accassionally puts a foot wrong. We are all falible. Christian doctrine holds that humans are, by nature, sinful. But if we retain our Earthly personalities, how can we reconcile the ideas that 1) Heaven is free from sin, and 2) Heaven is populated by falible humans?

I often hear it stated that the Earth is a sinful place because humans have free will. God allows us to do bad things because he values our autonomy. Okay, but then what about Heaven? If there is no sin, then do we humans have free will there?

If we have our free will removed and become mindless automatons enlessly singing the praises of God, then that sounds like a terrible place to be - one of mental slavery. You yourself said "There are no robots, puppets, hostages, or victims of domineering in heaven." But if we do retain our free will, how is there no sin?

One might respond that we have a purer or higher form of free will - perhaps being in the direct presence of God gives us perfect empathy, or perfect love, or our sinful desires and fleshly lusts are removed by no longer having our mortal bodies. But this too is problematic for the theists - if it is possible to have free will without sin, then why didn't God make us like that in the first place?

It is difficult to overstate the scale of this problem, theologically. If people in Heaven have free will, yet (somehow) do not commit sins, then why couldn't humans have been created like that on Earth? Giving us this lesser form of free will where sinning is inevitable, effectively means God could have given us free will whilst still making Earth a sin-free place, but chose not to. He actively chose to create sin and suffering - and to bar the gates of Heaven to the majority of the human race. If His almighty plan was to save as many people as possible, then why didn't he make us unable to sin? That would've make our ascension to Heaven a lot easier.

This also touches on a very problematic concept - inherited guilt. If my father commits a crime - one that I had no participation in, or even any knowledge of - should I be punished? Do I share in the blame simply because I am his son? Do I inherit his guilt through my blood?

I cannot understand a system of justice which would answer 'yes' here. We are all individuals, responsible only for our own actions. Yet God is supposed to be a just God, and yet apparently I am born into sin. If we take the Adam and Eve story literally, then I have inherited the sin of my most distant ancestors. If we take it as an allegory, then what exactly is the metaphor here? How can I be born guilty? How can I be condemned for actions I did not perform?

Would you inherit righteousness through Jesus' blood?
Romans 5
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned - 13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come. 15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! 18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. 20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I don't think that is an applicable anaolgy. If your son ran into the road, it would be a tragedy that you were unable to avoid. This is where the analogy fails. God created Hell. He set in place the arrangement that the Christians go to Heaven and the non-Christians go to Hell. Hell is not a danger He is trying to protect us from; it is a punishment He is willing to inflict - a threat.

Which brings us back to a statement I made in my first post in this thread. Trying to grasp the true concept of heaven (or hell) without sincerely wanting to know the true character of God is futile. So far your portrait of God's character is coercive, sinister, mugger, enslaver, brutal, blood-hungry, war-monger, creepy, repulsive...
You started this thread with a question, but it looks like you already have the the answers. You even claim that if you were an omnipotent deity (arriving at that idea from an admittedly imperfect state) that you can come up with a thousand better ways of doing what God-omnipotent does.

You've made your stance loud and clear about your beliefs. I just thought it was a waste of time that you would engage other people in an open discussion, when it's quite apparent that your mind is already made-up.

So I don't really know what you want and what you were hoping to get out of this discussion, but I do hope that you find and understand God's love someday. In the meantime, may God's peace be with you...

 

[juvenissun]

Do you? I think it is sinister.

My mother is an atheist. If I convert and go to Heaven, you are essentially saying that I will stop caring about my own mother as soon as I step through the pearly gates. That's horrible. I don't want to stop caring about her - I love her. And saying I will simply stop loving her and be totally unmoved by the idea that she is barred from Heaven and I will never see her again (quite aside from whether she is being actively tortured in agony in Hell, thanks to the deity I am spending eternity worshipping) is creepy and repulsive. This is starting to sound like A Clockwork Orange.

Think about what you are advocating. Does it REALLY actually make sense to you?

Yes, it does.

You put human emotion BEFORE God's justice. Imagine that if your son committed crime and you are the judge, no matter how much you love him, he still need to be sentenced as guilty.

 

[juvenissun]

God is a principle character in the Old Testament - arguabley THE principle character - so it is a history of Him too.



Why? Why is violence a necessary part of that process? Surely an omnipotent deity can achieve His ends however He wishes? Otherwise He is not omnipotent. Why is He constrained by a necessity for violence?



If I was an omnipotent deity, I could come up with a thousand better ways of evicting the Promised Land's native inhabitants than wholesale slaughter. If we are to allow that God is omnipotent - or even remotely powerful at all - then the only reason we can allow for his massacre of the Canaanites is that he actually approves of genocide. And this is, may I add, the being many Christians claim to be the font of all morality...

God want a fully responsible human in the Heaven. So, God let human find his own way, rather than open a way for him.

I feel the discussion here is not focused enough. The goalpost is shifting.

 

[Giberoo]

Scripture says no misery.

Then what will I feel when I consider the people I loved who did not make it to Heaven?

Would you inherit righteousness through Jesus' blood?

Ummm, no. Jesus did not leave any descendants. It might be Christian doctrine that we become righteous when we accept Jesus which, in the Catholic faith, involves drinking his blood, but that's not the same as simply being 'born righteous' because of who our parents were.

Which brings us back to a statement I made in my first post in this thread. Trying to grasp the true concept of heaven (or hell) without sincerely wanting to know the true character of God is futile. So far your portrait of God's character is coercive, sinister, mugger, enslaver, brutal, blood-hungry, war-monger, creepy, repulsive...

I am not trying to be insulting. I am arriving at this assessment of God's character after what I honestly consider an objective examination of his actions. The choice to 'accept Jesus or burn' really is a threat. I have not arrived at this conclusion through a pre-meditated determination to character-assassinate God; it really is the logical conclusion from a sober examination of the situation. And if I am mistaken, you have not explained the fault in my logic.

You even claim that if you were an omnipotent deity (arriving at that idea from an admittedly imperfect state) that you can come up with a thousand better ways of doing what God-omnipotent does.

I said I could think of a thousand better ways of evicting people without genocide. But that's not saying very much. Frankly I'd struggle to think of worse ways to evict people. Isn't a holocaust the worst outcome?

You've made your stance loud and clear about your beliefs. I just thought it was a waste of time that you would engage other people in an open discussion, when it's quite apparent that your mind is already made-up.

I object to this. I am not being disingenuous. I am not being closed-minded or irrational. I am merely questioning a few problems with Christian doctrine. Frankly, it seems you are just calling me closed-minded because I will not blindly accept Christian doctrine without examination. It seems to me it is your position which is closed-minded.

So I don't really know what you want and what you were hoping to get out of this discussion, but I do hope that you find and understand God's love someday. In the meantime, may God's peace be with you...

Thank you for your time anyway.

 

[someguy14]

What is Heaven actually like?

Isaiah 64:4
For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what He hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

 

[someguy14]

Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

 

[Giberoo]

Yes, it does.

You put human emotion BEFORE God's justice. Imagine that if your son committed crime and you are the judge, no matter how much you love him, he still need to be sentenced as guilty.

I absolutely agree. But I would feel emotionally conflicted about it. No-one's promising I would live a life of happiness on Earth.

But that IS a claim made about Heaven. And I cannot see how it can actually work in practice as long as you care for other people which, let's face it, is pretty much the prerequisite for moral behaviour in the first place.

 

[Giberoo]

God want a fully responsible human in the Heaven. So, God let human find his own way, rather than open a way for him.

I don't understand your point here. You are saying God is so violent because he gave humans free will? What's the connection here?

I feel the discussion here is not focused enough. The goalpost is shifting.

They are. If you wish you can just return to the title topic.

 

[Giberoo]

Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Are these quotes relevant to anything here?

 

[someguy14]

The wicked ones rule and by violence, take what they want. Imagine this, a Higher power that actually rules and allows this to happen. How can He allow this? He can allow it because He alone is aware of all that awaits those that are His. And alone is aware of all that awaits those that aren't His.