What is Heaven actually like?

[Forge3]

post deleted

 

[Giberoo]

No. Non-believer creates hell.

Not so. God created everything - including the Earth, the Heavens, and Hell. It is all part of His Divine plan. If not, He has the power to change it. The only reason this situation can exist is because He allows it.

 

[juvenissun]

Not so. God created everything - including the Earth, the Heavens, and Hell. It is all part of His Divine plan. If not, He has the power to change it. The only reason this situation can exist is because He allows it.

For those who do not accept God, there is a place for them.

What is wrong with that?

 

[juvenissun]

So you're saying I should only be a Christian if everyone I care about is also a Christian?



And if I choose God, I will forever be seperated from my non-Christian friends. As a person who cares about them, that would upset me.



I do not control my friends. I could, in theory, preach to them, but it they chose not to convert then I cannot make them.

That is very true. If you like to have them together in the Heaven, then work on them harder, don't give up.

 

[KimberlyAA]

There is no where in the Bible that explicitly states "people burn forever". There are references to eternal punishment and eternal death which can also mean eternal non-existence. No one can pre-determine whether or not a non-Christian will burn in the lake of fire. That is entirely up to God. Many people make the claim that God is evil because he allows non-believers to burn and that is absolutely stereotypical of mainstream thought today. God values justice, He knows better than we do how to handle the souls of His sinners and we should abstain from placing Him in this little box in our minds of some evil torturer. No one can begin to imagine what things will be like or if we will be knowledgeable of our relatives'/acquaintances' fates. Justice must be meted out, however. I am happy to know that my God is just. It would be unfair if a blasphemer and a believer were to be treated equally.

 

[juvenissun]

Just like the situation with the mugger. The choice is hand over wallet or not.

Hand over wallet and live.
Do not hand over wallet and get shot.

The situations are directly comparable.

That's not really the point. As long as non-Christians do not go to Heaven, then I will be searated from them. That is reason enough for me to mourn their loss.

Mugger wants your money, not you.
God wants you, not your money.

I understand that. But think it this way: If your friends knew you want to believe in God and do not care about your feeling, then what kind of friends are they? Your friends want to pull you away from God. If you precious the friendship, then you may just give up God. Very simple. Would you mourn for God's loss?

I guess the real point is: To you, God is not as real as your friends.
To me, I would give up anyone for God. This include parents, wife, children. Friends? Who are they?

 

[Giberoo]

For those who do not accept God, there is a place for them.

What is wrong with that?

Were I to convert, I would never see them again. And as someone who loves them, I would miss them. That alone is a bad thing.

 

[Giberoo]

That is very true. If you like to have them together in the Heaven, then work on them harder, don't give up.

Again, I do not control my friends. If my friends never converted, I could not fairly be blamed for not having 'worked harder on them'.

 

[Giberoo]

Mugger wants your money, not you.
God wants you, not your money.

That does not change the fact that both are employing threats and coercion, rather than offering a genuinely free choice. In fact, when you put it like that, doesn't it make God's position sound even MORE sinister?

I understand that. But think it this way: If your friends knew you want to believe in God and do not care about your feeling, then what kind of friends are they? Your friends want to pull you away from God. If you precious the friendship, then you may just give up God. Very simple. Would you mourn for God's loss?

You're saying I shouldn't mourn the loss of people who are not willing to convert simply to spare my feelings?

I find that position ridiculous. How self-centred would I have to be to demand all my friends and family convert to my religion? That is a thoroughly unreasonable request. As is the idea that I should cut emotional ties with them if they refuse.

I guess the real point is: To you, God is not as real as your friends.
To me, I would give up anyone for God. This include parents, wife, children. Friends? Who are they?

I don't want to be insulting, but can you not see how truly and thoroughly dangerous a mentality that is? This is exactly the rationale which drives people to join cults and perform atrocious acts of terrorism.

I apologise if I am causing any offence - I am not calling you a cultist or terrorist. But such people are driven to do what they do from a conviction that their religious beliefs trump any connection or allegiance they owe to the material world. In their eyes, the word of God overrules any moral objections or emotional attachment they have to people in the here and now. The only thing such people have which you don't seems to be a suitably charismatic leader who has managed to convince the people around them that they are a mouthpiece for God's commands.

Again I apologise, because I realise how easily this comparison could be seen as insulting. But I just want you to stop and genuinely consider a man who declares that they would do ANYTHING for God; commit literally any atrocity, abandon - even betray - any friend or family member; a man who says his love of God trumps the love he has even for his own children. Doesn't such a person frighten you? That they have surrendered their own moral compass for simple unquestioning obedience?

 

[Giberoo]

There is no where in the Bible that explicitly states "people burn forever". There are references to eternal punishment and eternal death which can also mean eternal non-existence. No one can pre-determine whether or not a non-Christian will burn in the lake of fire. That is entirely up to God. Many people make the claim that God is evil because he allows non-believers to burn and that is absolutely stereotypical of mainstream thought today. God values justice, He knows better than we do how to handle the souls of His sinners and we should abstain from placing Him in this little box in our minds of some evil torturer. No one can begin to imagine what things will be like or if we will be knowledgeable of our relatives'/acquaintances' fates. Justice must be meted out, however. I am happy to know that my God is just. It would be unfair if a blasphemer and a believer were to be treated equally.

I am aware that the idea of Hell owes as much to popular conception as it does to the Bible. The Bible itself makes only a few passing references to Hell which, I am aware, can be explained away as referring to something other than a literal place of torture in fire and brimstone.

However, though I find such an assertion to be an exercise in wishful thinking, that's not really the point here. The crux of my argument is that God's chosen (let's just call them 'Christians' for argument's sake) get into Heaven which everyone else does not. It doesn't really matter where the non-Christians go, it just matters that I, should I convert, will never see them again. That would make me unhappy, and undermines the idea of Heaven as a place of perfect bliss and happiness.

It seems happiness in Heaven depends on not caring about anyone who won't end up in there.

 

[juvenissun]

Were I to convert, I would never see them again. And as someone who loves them, I would miss them. That alone is a bad thing.

OK, if you want to stick on this point:

You probably won't. If you do, then Heaven is not good enough and is not worthwhile.

 

[juvenissun]

Again, I do not control my friends. If my friends never converted, I could not fairly be blamed for not having 'worked harder on them'.

You will not be blamed. On the contrary, you will be credited for your hard work. This is exactly because what you said: you do not control them.

 

[Forge3]

Lol.

 

[juvenissun]

That does not change the fact that both are employing threats and coercion, rather than offering a genuinely free choice. In fact, when you put it like that, doesn't it make God's position sound even MORE sinister?


You're saying I shouldn't mourn the loss of people who are not willing to convert simply to spare my feelings?

I find that position ridiculous. How self-centred would I have to be to demand all my friends and family convert to my religion? That is a thoroughly unreasonable request. As is the idea that I should cut emotional ties with them if they refuse.



I don't want to be insulting, but can you not see how truly and thoroughly dangerous a mentality that is? This is exactly the rationale which drives people to join cults and perform atrocious acts of terrorism.

I apologise if I am causing any offence - I am not calling you a cultist or terrorist. But such people are driven to do what they do from a conviction that their religious beliefs trump any connection or allegiance they owe to the material world. In their eyes, the word of God overrules any moral objections or emotional attachment they have to people in the here and now. The only thing such people have which you don't seems to be a suitably charismatic leader who has managed to convince the people around them that they are a mouthpiece for God's commands.

Again I apologise, because I realise how easily this comparison could be seen as insulting. But I just want you to stop and genuinely consider a man who declares that they would do ANYTHING for God; commit literally any atrocity, abandon - even betray - any friend or family member; a man who says his love of God trumps the love he has even for his own children. Doesn't such a person frighten you? That they have surrendered their own moral compass for simple unquestioning obedience?

No need to apologize. I don't mind to be called a Christian fanatics. At least a Christian fanatics will not harm anyone else.

God "wants" everyone of us to be with Him. You certainly can say no. That is your free choice. I don't cut off my emotion with non-Christians. But I will not sacrifice my chance of going to the Heaven because of them.

 

[Giberoo]

OK, if you want to stick on this point:

You probably won't. If you do, then Heaven is not good enough and is not worthwhile.

So we are agreed? If you care about someone who is not going to end up in Heaven, then Heaven will not be a very nice place after all?

 

[Giberoo]

You will not be blamed. On the contrary, you will be credited for your hard work. This is exactly because what you said: you do not control them.

Quite. But on the other hand, I cannot achieve perfect happiness through my own efforts.

 

[Giberoo]

No need to apologize. I don't mind to be called a Christian fanatics.

I am glad.

God "wants" everyone of us to be with Him. You certainly can say no. That is your free choice. I don't cut off my emotion with non-Christians. But I will not sacrifice my chance of going to the Heaven because of them.

But are you prepared to do God's will, whatever that may be? Would you kill if that's what God wanted? Would you plant a bomb in a crowded place if that's what God wanted? Would you abandon, even kill, family members, if that's what God wanted?

I realise these questions are unsavoury, but they are important...

 

[AlexBP]

You are saying it is untrue that only Christians get into Heaven? That seems an odd stance to take.

For one thing, the Bible itself specifically and repeatedly insists that faith in Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation.

That's a complicated statement. Have you ever read the entire Bible? Have you read commentaries, investigated the societal background in which it was written, or studied the text in its original language. I'm guessing not. That's not intended as an insult. I'm just saying that most people haven't done those things and it's necessary to do them in order to have an accurate picture of what the Bible truly says. Further, one cannot consider any one passage in isolation, but everything must be considered in light of scripture in its entirety. In that regard many have made a case for the position I stated based on scripture. You can see one example if you follow the link that I put in post 5, though that's a very abbreviated case. If you're willing to research the topic you can find a lot more.

And for another, if what you are saying is true, then why be a Christian?

I am a Christian because Jesus has called me to be a Christian. When he did, I knew that I desired to be a Christian. No self-centered desire related to the afterlife played any role my decision.

 

[juvenissun]

So we are agreed? If you care about someone who is not going to end up in Heaven, then Heaven will not be a very nice place after all?

I will modify it slightly:

If you would care about someone who did not end up in Heaven when you are in Heaven, then Heaven will not be a very nice place after all?

If you accept the modification, then we agree.

Our "emotion" in Heaven will be different from our emotion now.

 

[juvenissun]

Quite. But on the other hand, I cannot achieve perfect happiness through my own efforts.

From human point of view, you are right.

From a Christian point of view, you need to make some adjustment. Then you can achieve more happiness. Perfect or not would depend on the strength of your faith.