What is hate?

[No Swansong]

We have all seen this word used many times especially on this particular sub-forum. Barely a day goes by that those who are opposed to same sex marriage aren't accused of hate. Of course it can also be said that those who support same sex marriage are almost daily accused of not being Christian or at least not obedient Christians.

I am interested in knowing how the myriad of us define hate. I would also be interested in knowing how hate can ever be anything other than subjective to the opinions and views of the individual who is being accused of hatred?

I will give an example; If person A comes to an informed opinion that person B is condemned by their actions and out of their concern for person B informs person B of that opinion, is this an issue of hatred? Or could it be an act of love? Does the fact that person B feels hatred actually make the act a hateful one?

 

[CreedIsChrist]

Those opposed to homosexual behavior are often charged with "homophobia", that they hold the position they do because they are "afraid" of homosexuals. Sometimes the charge is even made that these same people are perhaps homosexuals themselves and are overcompensating to hide this fact, even from themselves, by condemning other homosexuals.

Both of these arguments attempt to stop rational discussion of an issue by shifting the focus to one of the participants. In doing so, they dismiss another person’s arguments based on some real or supposed attribute of the person. In this case, the supposed attribute is a fear of homosexuals.

Like similar attempts to avoid rational discussion of an issue, the homophobia argument completely misses the point. Even if a person were afraid of homosexuals, that would not diminish his arguments against their behavior. The fact that a person is afraid of handguns would not nullify arguments against handguns, nor would the fact that a person might be afraid of handgun control diminish arguments against handgun control.

Furthermore, the homophobia charge rings false. The vast majority of those who oppose homosexual behavior are in no way "afraid" of homosexuals. A disagreement is not the same as a fear. One can disagree with something without fearing it, and the attempt to shut down rational discussion by crying "homophobe!" falls flat. It is an attempt to divert attention from the arguments against one’s position by focusing attention on the one who made the arguments, while trying to claim the moral high ground against him.

 

[No Swansong]

While I agree with your comments CIC. I missed its relevance to my question. Could you elaborate?

 

[quatona]

We have all seen this word used many times especially on this particular sub-forum. Barely a day goes by that those who are opposed to same sex marriage aren't accused of hate. Of course it can also be said that those who support same sex marriage are almost daily accused of not being Christian or at least not obedient Christians.

I am interested in knowing how the myriad of us define hate.

In my use hate/hatred is an emotion, and it´s not for me to tell others what emotions they have.

I would also be interested in knowing how hate can ever be anything other than subjective to the opinions and views of the individual who is being accused of hatred?

I always find it refreshing when theists argue for subjectivsm.

I will give an example; If person A comes to an informed opinion that person B is condemned by their actions

The "informed opinion" part is a pretty big IF.

and out of their concern for person B informs person B of that opinion, is this an issue of hatred?

Don´t know - that´s only for person A to decide. And probably not even for her.

Or could it be an act of love?

With a lot of big IFs there´s certainly a way of picturing it as such, or for person A to feel she´s acting lovingly.

Does the fact that person B feels hatred actually make the act a hateful one?

No, certainly not.
The fact that a person is driven by hate makes the resulting act a hateful one.

Personally, I think that repeating a "warning" ad nauseum that pretty much everyone has heard a thousand times is simply stupid and respectless. (especially if you know that I don´t believe in the god you ascribe your opinions to, and yet treat me as if I did).
I know about the comparisons ("A house is on fire..."), but they usually don´t cut it, in that they omit the fact that the "informed opinion" is typically well-known and not a new, urgent information that has immediate importance in a given situation.

 

[Beanieboy]

I will give an example; If person A comes to an informed opinion that person B is condemned by their actions and out of their concern for person B informs person B of that opinion, is this an issue of hatred? Or could it be an act of love? Does the fact that person B feels hatred actually make the act a hateful one?

Wow. Is that what you are reading on this board?

Is it loving to quote Leviticus (when you yourself ignore it) and point out that if your country was really following God, that gays would all be killed? Is it loving to claim that you want to bring back the law of Moses and execute al the gay people? Oh, it not

Would it be loving if a Muslim told you that you were worshipping a false god and going to hell, and when you agree to disagree, they just keep harping on it, and harping on it, and harping on it?

Do you think gay people have never heard that "homosexuality is a sin" according to some Christians? WE GOT IT. WE JUST DON'T AGREE.

I have seen posters post long discussions about Leviticus, and how the words translate into "male prostitute", etc. The "concerned" A will then ignore it. Is that loving? Is that even following God?

I have pointed out that the sins of Sodom were many, but the same "concerned" person will claim that same-sex rape, like one may experience in a prison, is exactly the same as a loving gay relationship. Is that loving?

Is what Anita Bryant was doing in the Save the Children, holding up the bible to protect society from the evil gays that were going to recruit your children, but whose crusade was really about removing protection for gays so that they weren't fired simply for being gay, or denied housing? Is that in any way loving? Is it righteous???? Or is it using fearmongering, and scapegoating gays, and using slander to try to preserve injustice and make prejudice legal?

So, you may mean well, but it's like being a Jew, and having Christians tell you, as a Jew, that you are a Jesus-killer, or that you own all of the media, or that the Holocaust never happened and it was done for attention, or that it was God's punishment, or that you are going to hell because you don't have Jesus as your Savior.

Now, you come along this person that is constantly lied about, condemned constantly, scapegoated and say, "You know, if you accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, you can go to heaven just like me."

You intentions may be good, but while you aren't making the wounds, you are putting salt in them, and to act like, "golly, why are you so sensitive" is just ignoring what the person goes through, and not very loving.

A friend of mine is married to a Canadian woman. She is American, but they can't return to the US, because they won't be recognized legally. Is that loving?
Gay marriage simply allows for two gay people to be protected under the law. This would allow for property rights, be considered next of kin, etc.
And yet, that is what people are fighting against, not unlike Anita.

If someone is actively working against the rights of others, yeah, that's hateful. If someone is purposefully telling lies and slander, like comparing gay people to a child/adult molestation relationship, or even a man and his dog, do you think that's loving? That's pretty hateful, in my opinion.

If one uses the slippery slope theory (if we let two men marry, then next it will be a man and his sister...) but not on your own marriage (if we allow one man and one woman, soon, the man and woman will be brother and sister, because that is still heterosexual), that's not loving. It's deceitful.

If one looks to Leviticus and points to archaic verses, and only honors 2 against same sex sex, while ignoring all the rest that may apply to you, then yeah, I don't think that's love. I don't even think that is love of God, or honoring the bible.

Go see Milk. See the "love" that Anita speaks of. See how people tried to fire not only gay teachers, but anyone who supported the gay teachers, and how it was all about what was "right." And see how Dan White, the moral guy, the upstanding Christian, kills two people in cold blood, and tell me that something is not wrong with what is going on, and what passes as good, righteous, or holy, or passes for "what God wants."

 

[Beanieboy]

I understand what you are saying. How is stating what you believe, especially if it is out of concern for them?

However, rarely do the same people actually listen to gay people, and know them, or their lives. They simply view them as "their sin", as homosexuals, and not even people.

On another board, the people were more concerned that I was gay than that I was Buddhist, and not Christian. Does that sound like people whose priorities are in order?

But imagine me being Muslim.
I tell you that you are going to hell for disobeying Allah. Why do hate Allah? Why do you bring hell upon yourself?
You tell me that you are Christian.
I tell you that you are worshipping a false god.
You agree to disagree, but are happy as a Christian.
I tell you that according to the Quran, you are going to hell. Allah will punish the evil doers.
You disagree, and go by the bible.
I tell you that you have been misled, and must turn to Allah.
You disagree.
I tell you again that you are going to hell.

Is this loving? If I just keep repeating how you are going to hell?

Then you may get tired of it, and say, "ALRIGHT ALREADY!"

And I say, "Why so sensitive?"

That's what its like.

 

[gwenmead]

I've always thought of (and experienced) hatred as extreme animosity - a concentrated form of hostility, if you will. The difference between hatred and, say, dislike, is similar to the difference between anger and rage: it's a matter of degree or intensity. In my experience, hatred is expressed with aggression (including passive aggression), vitriol, violence, or abuse.

It's been very, very rare that I've ever truly hated anyone.

I will give an example; If person A comes to an informed opinion that person B is condemned by their actions and out of their concern for person B informs person B of that opinion, is this an issue of hatred? Or could it be an act of love?

It depends.

It's certainly an act of arrogance (and disrespect), but it might not be motivated by genuine hatred. I suppose it all depends on the heart of person A, in the above example.

Concern for another's soul can indeed come from a compassionate place. Whether said concern is simply misguided, or is instead a mask for an underlying hostility, well - that's the $64,000 question, isn't it.

Does the fact that person B feels hatred actually make the act a hateful one?

Not necessarily. It is possible that their perceptions are incorrect, that they might be overreacting.

But I also believe in the adage: what you do speaks so loud I cannot hear what you say. Hostility and hatred are recognizable in the actions of another, just as kindness and compassion are.

So it just depends.

 

[No Swansong]

In my use hate/hatred is an emotion, and it´s not for me to tell others what emotions they have.

I always find it refreshing when theists argue for subjectivsm.


The "informed opinion" part is a pretty big IF.

Don´t know - that´s only for person A to decide. And probably not even for her.


With a lot of big IFs there´s certainly a way of picturing it as such, or for person A to feel she´s acting lovingly.

No, certainly not.
The fact that a person is driven by hate makes the resulting act a hateful one.

Personally, I think that repeating a "warning" ad nauseum that pretty much everyone has heard a thousand times is simply stupid and respectless. (especially if you know that I don´t believe in the god you ascribe your opinions to, and yet treat me as if I did).
I know about the comparisons ("A house is on fire..."), but they usually don´t cut it, in that they omit the fact that the "informed opinion" is typically well-known and not a new, urgent information that has immediate importance in a given situation.

So is it correct to assume that you have never accused anyone on the board of hatred?

As for the rest I do not have an agenda here, I simply want to know your and everyone elses definition of hate if the word is going to be used so much on this board.

Hatred as far as I understand it has always necessitated intent by the person hating. While it is certainly possible to injure someone by accident I find it impossible to believe that one can hate by accident.

So I ask again; what is hate?

 

[No Swansong]

Wow. Is that what you are reading on this board?

Is it loving to quote Leviticus (when you yourself ignore it) and point out that if your country was really following God, that gays would all be killed? Is it loving to claim that you want to bring back the law of Moses and execute al the gay people? Oh, it not

Would it be loving if a Muslim told you that you were worshipping a false god and going to hell, and when you agree to disagree, they just keep harping on it, and harping on it, and harping on it?

Do you think gay people have never heard that "homosexuality is a sin" according to some Christians? WE GOT IT. WE JUST DON'T AGREE.

I have seen posters post long discussions about Leviticus, and how the words translate into "male prostitute", etc. The "concerned" A will then ignore it. Is that loving? Is that even following God?

I have pointed out that the sins of Sodom were many, but the same "concerned" person will claim that same-sex rape, like one may experience in a prison, is exactly the same as a loving gay relationship. Is that loving?

Is what Anita Bryant was doing in the Save the Children, holding up the bible to protect society from the evil gays that were going to recruit your children, but whose crusade was really about removing protection for gays so that they weren't fired simply for being gay, or denied housing? Is that in any way loving? Is it righteous???? Or is it using fearmongering, and scapegoating gays, and using slander to try to preserve injustice and make prejudice legal?

So, you may mean well, but it's like being a Jew, and having Christians tell you, as a Jew, that you are a Jesus-killer, or that you own all of the media, or that the Holocaust never happened and it was done for attention, or that it was God's punishment, or that you are going to hell because you don't have Jesus as your Savior.

Now, you come along this person that is constantly lied about, condemned constantly, scapegoated and say, "You know, if you accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, you can go to heaven just like me."

You intentions may be good, but while you aren't making the wounds, you are putting salt in them, and to act like, "golly, why are you so sensitive" is just ignoring what the person goes through, and not very loving.

A friend of mine is married to a Canadian woman. She is American, but they can't return to the US, because they won't be recognized legally. Is that loving?
Gay marriage simply allows for two gay people to be protected under the law. This would allow for property rights, be considered next of kin, etc.
And yet, that is what people are fighting against, not unlike Anita.

If someone is actively working against the rights of others, yeah, that's hateful. If someone is purposefully telling lies and slander, like comparing gay people to a child/adult molestation relationship, or even a man and his dog, do you think that's loving? That's pretty hateful, in my opinion.

If one uses the slippery slope theory (if we let two men marry, then next it will be a man and his sister...) but not on your own marriage (if we allow one man and one woman, soon, the man and woman will be brother and sister, because that is still heterosexual), that's not loving. It's deceitful.

If one looks to Leviticus and points to archaic verses, and only honors 2 against same sex sex, while ignoring all the rest that may apply to you, then yeah, I don't think that's love. I don't even think that is love of God, or honoring the bible.

Go see Milk. See the "love" that Anita speaks of. See how people tried to fire not only gay teachers, but anyone who supported the gay teachers, and how it was all about what was "right." And see how Dan White, the moral guy, the upstanding Christian, kills two people in cold blood, and tell me that something is not wrong with what is going on, and what passes as good, righteous, or holy, or passes for "what God wants."

Beanieboy I am afraid you are attributing to me an agenda that just isn't there. I would simply like to know what your, and everyone elses definition of "hate" is. This term is used very often on this board and I want to know what people mean when they use the term.

 

[No Swansong]

However, rarely do the same people actually listen to gay people, and know them, or their lives. They simply view them as "their sin", as homosexuals, and not even people.

This I admit is not only true it is tragic. But really my friend I am not trying to send a cryptic message, I am not trying to work an agenda I would however truly like to know what you believe hate to be. I promise I have no intention of arguing with answers I may ask for clarification but I really just want to know how the people on this forum use the word.

 

[No Swansong]

I've always thought of (and experienced) hatred as extreme animosity - a concentrated form of hostility, if you will. The difference between hatred and, say, dislike, is similar to the difference between anger and rage: it's a matter of degree or intensity. In my experience, hatred is expressed with aggression (including passive aggression), vitriol, violence, or abuse.

It's been very, very rare that I've ever truly hated anyone.



It depends.

It's certainly an act of arrogance (and disrespect), but it might not be motivated by genuine hatred. I suppose it all depends on the heart of person A, in the above example.

Concern for another's soul can indeed come from a compassionate place. Whether said concern is simply misguided, or is instead a mask for an underlying hostility, well - that's the $64,000 question, isn't it.



Not necessarily. It is possible that their perceptions are incorrect, that they might be overreacting.

But I also believe in the adage: what you do speaks so loud I cannot hear what you say. Hostility and hatred are recognizable in the actions of another, just as kindness and compassion are.

So it just depends.

Thanks!

I am particularly interested in this comment.

"It's been very, very rare that I've ever truly hated anyone. "

May I ask did you know at the time you were experiencing hatred, and was it something you believe could have avoided?

 

[CreedIsChrist]

So is it correct to assume that you have never accused anyone on the board of hatred?

As for the rest I do not have an agenda here, I simply want to know your and everyone elses definition of hate if the word is going to be used so much on this board.

Hatred as far as I understand it has always necessitated intent by the person hating. While it is certainly possible to injure someone by accident I find it impossible to believe that one can hate by accident.

So I ask again; what is hate?

Real hate is the malicious effort the cause others to fall and sin. For instance, I would catagorize Richard Dawkins as a man who truly hates his fellow man, because he is making an effort to make others doubt their faith in God and cause dissention.

 

[Beanieboy]

Beanieboy I am afraid you are attributing to me an agenda that just isn't there. I would simply like to know what your, and everyone elses definition of "hate" is. This term is used very often on this board and I want to know what people mean when they use the term.

I don't attribute you with hate at all.
I made a list of what I think hatred is, and you weren't in it.

I like you, but you frustrate me.
You make this about you.
You asked me what hatred was, and I listed it, and your response? That I am attributing "an agenda" (really? Really???? an agenda???) to you.

Everything isn't about you.
The hatred is there.
The hateful posts are there.
I'm not sure if all the posters are on your ignore list, or you just refuse to see how hateful some of those posts are.

As I said, you may even have done so with the best of intentions, but after you have people comparing you and your partner to a man and a dog, or child molesters, you end up being nothing more than salt on the wound to say, "well, you know, the bible says..."

Do you really care what the bible says about homosexuality?
There is a lot of research on it on the internet.
Research it well, even the sides you disagree with, and you will at least come to the conclusion that theologians are split, and it isn't "clear."
Try places like www.whosoever.org, created by gay people that still wanted to worship God. Look at some of the "loving" letters sent to them by Christians. Read what the examination of the bible on homosexuality. Most importantly, pray about it long and hard.

I don't think you have love in your heart, but can you for a minute, love your neighbor as yourself? Put yourself in our shoes, be the brunt of all of that condemnation, and then see someone just putting one more straw in your back, and try to understand how your love or concern is misinterpreted as hatred, condemnation, or self-exaltation.

If you have love in your heart, you should be able to at least understand how the person could have misunderstood.

 

[Beanieboy]

This I admit is not only true it is tragic. But really my friend I am not trying to send a cryptic message, I am not trying to work an agenda I would however truly like to know what you believe hate to be. I promise I have no intention of arguing with answers I may ask for clarification but I really just want to know how the people on this forum use the word.

I listed almost a dozen in post #6
You ask. I told you. Then you say you really want to know.

That's the frustrating part. Read my posts: #6
They aren't about you. They are a collection of posters over the years here.

I would never accuse you of being cryptic or bating. I wonder sometimes why you have problems hearing or listening, though.
Really think about each of those things, and put yourself in the same place, the target of a righteous attack.

 

[lisah]

Beanieboy I am afraid you are attributing to me an agenda that just isn't there. I would simply like to know what your, and everyone elses definition of "hate" is. This term is used very often on this board and I want to know what people mean when they use the term.

Well, I actually wondered if you had such an agenda. I suppose using the example you did was the clearest one because it does run rampant here, almost like an illness or an obsession with some. It might have been wiser to have chosen something a little less loaded.

I think it would take me a long time to answer your question. Much longer than I have right now. I'll have to think on it a while.

 

[Beanieboy]

I'll answer right now. Is it hateful? No. I will tell you that you have a right to your opinion, and ask if you have done research. (People that say that S&G were destroyed because of homosexuality haven't even read the bible!). Then I will tell you that I have researched it, and I see no mention of homosexuality at all in the way that we mean it.

Then I will ask you to move on.

If you don't, and continue on, it wouldn't be unlike the Muslim that keeps posting how you are going to hell for angering Allah. Does it make you change your mind? How does it make you feel. Loved? Annoyed? Angered?

Does it make you want to reconsider? Or even more resistant?

And it has NOTHING to do with Allah, but the worshipper, am I right?

 

[gwenmead]

You're welcome. Glad to oblige.

May I ask did you know at the time you were experiencing hatred, and was it something you believe could have avoided?

Good questions.

There was a time in my life when I hadn't identified a given feeling or state of mind as "hatred", so at that point, no, I didn't know. Sometime in adolescence is probably when I first came up with an understanding of hatred; from that point onward, the few times I've felt it, I've known exactly what it is.

I don't feel that hatred as an emotion is something I have any control over; or if I do, control is limited. Acting on that hatred is another matter, however.

With that said, as I mentioned, it's a very rare thing for me to truly hate someone. Generally someone has to earn my hatred, and they have to earn it by taking some pretty extreme, harmful actions (abuse or violence, for instance) and show no remorse or conscience about it.

I used to gauge whether or not I hated someone by asking myself whether I would wish eternal torment on them. If the answer was "yes", that was a pretty good sign that I did. My criterion is a little different now, but still rare.

Hope that helps a bit.

 

[Beanieboy]

NoSwansong:

Can you define hate?

 

[CreedIsChrist]

NoSwansong:

Can you define hate?

Well the classic definition is intense feelings of dislike. But if that is fully true, then pretty much 100% of the population would be hateful. Like I had said earlier I think true hate goes much deeper than intensly disliking another. I think the purest form of hate would be Satans rebellion against God and his effort to cause people to fall. We may do things in this world that may effect someone temporarily, but when we do things that can effect a persons eternal well-being and soul then we have begun to delve into the true being of hatred.

 

[Beanieboy]

I'm going to try another approach, and see if I can get through.

Ever known anyone who had really bad acne, who stopped eating chocolate, greasy foods, took medication, had a skin regimen, and have someone come up to them and say, "have you ever thought of getting some cream for your acne?", like they even understand the person's problem, because they had a zit once?

Ever known anyone who was losing their hair, and had to deal with it, with the bald jokes, or how people talk about people who are bald, who had tried a number of remedies, and had someone come up to them and say, "Have you ever tried Rogaine", only to have the person say, "Gee! Why didn't I think of that? What is this "Rogaine" of which you speak? It is the elixir of the gods, is it not? That is why there are no more bald people! Because it works so amazingly well! YES, I've thought about it. Thanks!"

It's well intentioned. It's just very nearsighted, and not very thoughtful.

"Gee! Christians think that homosexuality is a sin? Wow! I have NEVER heard that before today - oh wait, I hear it MULTIPLE times every day..."

It's not very loving to assume we haven't, or ignore some of the more hateful posts directed at us - but it isn't their hate, it's God's Word....uhhhh bruther...gyaaah