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This is something I wrote a couple of years ago and am interested to see what feedback it might produce here. Though poetry is its starting point it is of course about creativity and art in all their manifestations.

What is “Good Poetry”?


Trying to defining what poetry is is certainly worthwhile doing but having a clear understanding of what we mean by “good” is more important. We start to get this by by expanding the question to, “What is good art?” To make a judgement about the merit of any poem or any piece of artistic expression three things need to be considered. - Form - Content – Intent.

Form

Strangely, in poetry, discussions about forms seem to use up more time and energy than in the other arts. Form of course is important but it is primarily a container. We can say about a sonnet or a sonata, it's good (well done), ok or rubbish, and be talking about it's construction its form. In the classical “form” of painting realism and true perspective are expected and those things are taken into account when judging how “good” a painting is. In the naïve “form” of painting they are not, but a judgement can still be made as to how “good” or not the naïve painting has been crafted, according to the criteria of that particular form. Free verse is a “form” of poetry and can be rated as to how well it conforms to that form.

Judgements of form are an important part of any complete critique. They are easier to make and usually less controversial than judgements of content and intent. The original Greek meaning of the word poet includes the idea of, maker, craftsman and the word artist also contains within it this same notion. Whatever the form in whatever art-form, a full critique of a work must pose questions such as, How well made is it?, Does it work, does it hold together technically?, How “good” is it on that level?

Content

It is possible to drink superb wine from a cracked cup. Likewise, one could drink dishwater from a flawless, cut glass goblet. In both cases it is the content that is the most important thing. The containers are not unimportant but it is what we take in from them that stays with us and effects what we become. Art (even at it's lightest) is soul to soul communication. It is the message contained within and transmitted by a poem (or any work of art) that also needs to be judged. What is it really saying? Is what it's saying true? Is it “good”? Lies usually present themselves as truth and ugliness by wearing a funny hat or a beautifully woven cloak can seem very attractive. Sometimes of course the content may just be inconsequential wadding.

But a “good” poem must surely be one that “does” good. Which may not always be the same thing as making the hearer “feel” good. Now, of course, we have entered the swampy mine-field of moral subjectivism and relativism. Form, of itself, is amoral but content has always the possibility to be good or bad in the moral sense and not just in a technical sense. However if we try to judge how well the content serves to bring about the intent of the artist that is a technical judgement. That is why in any critique the most important consideration and the most difficult is ….

Intent
What was/is the poet's/artist's intention in bringing into existence any particular work? Does the artist want want it to produce “good” (in the moral sense) outcomes? Closely tied to this is motivation. What exactly is it that moves us and gives us the desire and drive to produce and present our work? Intent, if ever we are able to know it, is always a matter of good and bad in the moral sense and should so be judged.

Form, content and intent can be thought about separately but of course the reality is that it's all three in combination that make the poem what it is. As a poet I want to produce superb wine in flawless cut-glass goblets or maybe more realistically, refreshing tea in homely mugs. Never mind how far I'm falling short of that, that's the intent and motivation. Poets (artists) should critique their “work”, through the form, content, intent prism when trying to deciding how “good” or not it is.

We live in an age where talk of moral judgement in art (probably more than in any other area of life) is ridiculed by a great many. The notion that good and bad (other than in a completely hedged, relative and subjective manner) might be legitimate words to use to describe a work of art is not nowadays cool. The idea that things mean whatever you want them to mean and that their “worth” is whatever value anyone chooses to give them with no concern for, or belief in, any universal, inclusive frame of references is all pervasive these days. It is a rationale that is destructively false and at its end produces only kingdoms of chaos. The intention of a “good” poet should always be to write “good” poetry.
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Milton is great.
Hello ez_fx, welcome to CF. Glad you found this backwater off the mainstream.
Yes, Milton is great, I'll go with that. Do you write yourself? Who else do you rate and (a much harder question) why?
Go well
><>
 
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...after all, what IS poetry, but a YAWP! of barbaric proportions?
Yes Brinny one of those rarer and rarer films that speak to the soul. I've just ordered the DVD and am looking forward to seeing it again. Thanks for flagging it up.
A YAWP of barbaric proportions? Well I think that's a good starting point. Here's a thought, is poetry something different for the writer/reader than for the reader/hearer?
I love where it says in Psalm 42,
"Deep calls to deep
in the roar of your waterfalls;
all your breakers and your waves
have gone over me."
But then jabberwockery is also a good yawp :)


Happy Saturday to you
><>
 
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brinny

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Yes Brinny one of those rarer and rarer films that speak to the soul. I've just ordered the DVD and am looking forward to seeing it again. Thanks for flagging it up.
A YAWP of barbaric proportions? Well I think that's a good starting point. Here's a thought, is poetry something different for the writer/reader than for the reader/hearer?
I love where it says in Psalm 42,
"Deep calls to deep
in the roar of your waterfalls;
all your breakers and your waves
have gone over me."
But then jabberwockery is also a good yawp :)


Happy Saturday to you
><>

Yes, it is one of those films that burrow its way into one's soul....

you asks good questions.

Let me chaw on that a bit......

jabberwockerin's iz yawpin' too i s'pose...

That is SOME Psalm.

Never noticed, or i don't remember those verses...

ever notice that ev'ry time yu reads the Bible you notice something else you either didn't see before or sorta' overlooked it?

Reminds me of this verse, which still renders me speechless:

"Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and show thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not." ~Jeremiah 33:3

The verse didn't really "come to life" for me until approximately a year ago, and thus began my understanding of what it meant to catch a glimpse into God's heart, and into His delight in me as His daughter.

He has a precious heart for us.
 
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The Barbarian

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.after all, what IS poetry, but a YAWP! of barbaric proportions?

Well, thank you.

First, poetry should be something that moves the person writing it. Like photography, a poem grabs a bit of the world as seen by one person, who then attempts to show that vision to others.

So the second most important thing is that the poet have sufficient grasp of the language to make others understand what he or she has seen, and to feel what he or she has felt.

And if that happens, greatness is beside the point.
 
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Well, thank you.

First and foremost, poetry should be something that moves the person writing it. Like photography, a poem grabs a bit of the world as seen by one person, who then attempts to show that vision to others.

So the second most important thing is that the poet have sufficient grasp of the language to make others understand what he or she has seen, and to feel what he or she has felt.

And if that happens, greatness is beside the point.

Very eloquently put.

Thank you.
 
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First, poetry should be something that moves the person writing it. Like photography, a poem grabs a bit of the world as seen by one person, who then attempts to show that vision to others.

So the second most important thing is that the poet have sufficient grasp of the language to make others understand what he or she has seen, and to feel what he or she has felt.

And if that happens, greatness is beside the point.

Hi there Barbarian,
I agree with what you're saying - up to a point :).
Are not sometimes our 'visions' of reality 'untrue' and need always to be examined through the prism of form-content-intent before they are offered up as a finished photo?
Greatness beside the point? Well it is certainly rare, in all of life's domains, but a belief in its reality and looking to it as a something to emulate according to our abilities is a good vision to have.
Go well and may the Yawp be with you,
><>
 
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The Barbarian

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No vision is "untrue" in the sense that all visions are a personal take on reality. The grasp of the medium is essential in order to show others what one's vision is. Lots of people are good wordsmiths or competent photographers in a technical sense. Those who can communicate a vision that those or other media have produced art.

And greatness is beside the point, since greatness is a by-product of the degree to which that vision is communicated. Since at the bottom, all human perception works the same way, a vision successfully demonstrated pulls us into the experience of the artist and we feel what he or she felt at the time.

And that is great.

As Stephen Gould remarked, Michelangelo's Moses is of surpassing greatness, because his knowledge of functional anatomy allowed him to put a number of emotions on Moses' face, matching his idea of what Moses felt coming down from the Mountain, and finding the Israelites worshiping a golden calf.
 
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Hi Barbarian, an interesting post,
I agree, not untrue in the sense of being a true 'personal take on reality', but is that what 'truth' is about? Are our personal takes on reality always in fact true? W. E. Henley's poem Invictus is a great poem that truly communicates what was his 'take on reality' when he wrote it. But was it ever true in fact that he was 'master of his fate'?

In the OP my principle concern is with our use of the word 'good' more than with the question of what constitutes greatness. A poem may be very good in how it presents (its form) and therefore very good (effective) in communicating but there still remains the legitimate and important question as to whether what it communicates (content) is good. Perhaps to ask, “Is it for good?” makes this clearer.

I would be interested to know if you see art as having a moral dimension? Also, would you not agree that, though 'feelings' are an integral part of how art works, 'reasons and reasoning' are at least as equally important in our interaction with it?

Whereas the content of the poem Invictus is clear enough, the content of Michelangelo's Moses is to my eyes far less obvious. It is a great work of art but what exactly are those thoughts and emotions portrayed on his face and in his posture? It is possible that the moment portrayed here is not when Moses came down the mountain and found the Israelites wallowing in idolatry but the moment described at the beginning of Exodus 34 when at the second giving of the law God shows Moses something of His Glory.

This flags up the question of whether it matters if there is a difference between the artist's intended vision and the receiver's understanding of it?
What do you think? :)
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Darn, I missed this, and the question is superb. Let me make amends by answering now.

Of course art has a moral dimension. Even if one is amoral, that comes through in one's art, if one is competent at it. But what you draw from it, can be quite different than the artist's intent.

Sarte's Critique of Dialectical Reason was a well-written attempt to "save" Marxism as an intellectually reasonable philosophy, but mostly undercut Marxism among leftists, because it demonstrated that Marx's idea of "class" was faulty.

Michelangelo's Moses is remarkable, in that Michelangelo used his extensive knowledge of human anatomy and emotion, to put on the face of Moses a mixture of feelings that express the moment he comes down from the mountain and sees the Israelites worshipping an idol they built.

Stephen Gould, in his set of essays Eight Little Piggies discusses this in some detail.

This flags up the question of whether it matters if there is a difference between the artist's intended vision and the receiver's understanding of it?
What do you think?

My son, who edited a poetry journal for a while, tells me it really doesn't matter. (he now does something for a start-up in Seattle, like a lot of English majors) And maybe it doesn't. Did Jackson Pollock realize he was producing canvases with a fractal structure that closely followed natural things? Or did it just "look right" to him? Does it matter?

I mostly write poems to my wife, and so I don't need to worry about others understanding. But if I write:

Warm summer nights
Five Star alone, just we.
Fresh lawns with sweet mow
in the fragrant air.


Do you have to know exactly what I'm saying here? I would think that anyone walking on a warm summer night, and smelling freshly mowed lawns would get meaning from this. At least I hope it would evoke the feeling of that moment.
 
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Darn, I missed this, and the question is superb. Let me make amends by answering now.
Of course art has a moral dimension. Even if one is amoral, that comes through in one's art, if one is competent at it. But what you draw from it, can be quite different than the artist's intent.

Sarte's Critique of Dialectical Reason was a well-written attempt to "save" Marxism as an intellectually reasonable philosophy, but mostly undercut Marxism among leftists, because it demonstrated that Marx's idea of "class" was faulty.

Michelangelo's Moses is remarkable, in that Michelangelo used his extensive knowledge of human anatomy and emotion, to put on the face of Moses a mixture of feelings that express the moment he comes down from the mountain and sees the Israelites worshipping an idol they built.

Stephen Gould, in his set of essays Eight Little Piggies discusses this in some detail.

My son, who edited a poetry journal for a while, tells me it really doesn't matter. (he now does something for a start-up in Seattle, like a lot of English majors) And maybe it doesn't. Did Jackson Pollock realize he was producing canvases with a fractal structure that closely followed natural things? Or did it just "look right" to him? Does it matter?

I mostly write poems to my wife, and so I don't need to worry about others understanding. But if I write:
Warm summer nights
Five Star alone, just we.
Fresh lawns with sweet mow
in the fragrant air.

Do you have to know exactly what I'm saying here? I would think that anyone walking on a warm summer night, and smelling freshly mowed lawns would get meaning from this. At least I hope it would evoke the feeling of that moment.


Hey there Barbarian - Better late than never :)
The sort of reply that warms my heart, lucid, to the point, interesting illustrations.
Even though there may be all sorts of caveats, in the end I still hold that it does matter that we communicate effectively and truly that which we had on our minds and in our hearts when we created our 'oeuvre'. Yes once it's out there, it may sink or swim or limp along and people will take and make of it what they will. But because for me art is essentially communication, it matters when there is 'misunderstanding'.
Yes communicating a feeling, a moment - and some very 'good' art does just that but when we want to communicate thoughts, say, about right and wrong, reality and falsehood the possibilities for 'misunderstanding' is greatly increased. There is a lot more common ground among us on how we feel things than there is on how we see things.:)
Can you tell me where Stephen Gould deals with these points, in which one(s) of the essays? I've scanned through his Prologue and around a bit but can't find specific stuff.
Go well
><>
 
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The Barbarian

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The Gould Essay is "Mozart and Modularity." You can read it here:
Eight Little Piggies: Reflections in Natural History

Warning, the essay rambles around, but it's in there.

I'm not a poet, I'm a photographer, and my idea is to put forth a picture that says "Hey! Look here; this is something worth seeing."

I don't do a lot of street photography, precisely because it requires such a deft touch to get the humanity of a person in an image, and being an INTP, I'm not great at that. This one, I'm proud of, because I think I got it right. This bartender was joking, pouring drinks, offering opinions, and generally entertaining his customers at the bar.

And then as they turned from him to talk among themselves, I saw something quite different.
30880917274_8f4cd1623f_c.jpg

The eyes say it all. I'm thinking of "Piano Man."

He says, "Bill, I believe this is killing me."
As the smile ran away from his face
"Well I'm sure that I could be a movie star
If I could get out of this place"

I wouldn't know how to convey something like justice or mercy in art; it's just not me. But you're right; there are people who do it, and it's important and worthwhile.
 
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The Gould Essay is "Mozart and Modularity." You can read it here:
Eight Little Piggies: Reflections in Natural History

Warning, the essay rambles around, but it's in there.

I'm not a poet, I'm a photographer, and my idea is to put forth a picture that says "Hey! Look here; this is something worth seeing."

I don't do a lot of street photography, precisely because it requires such a deft touch to get the humanity of a person in an image, and being an INTP, I'm not great at that. This one, I'm proud of, because I think I got it right. This bartender was joking, pouring drinks, offering opinions, and generally entertaining his customers at the bar.

And then as they turned from him to talk among themselves, I saw something quite different.

Hi Barbarian - I'm surprised at your personality type. Your avatar doesn't look very introverted :).
Yea, really good photo. The song lyrics as a caption go so well with the eyes, the inside/outside contrast and the cage effect of the window. If you had not told me it was a photo I would have taken it to be a painting.
Do you like the pre-raphaelites? One I keep on my desktop is W.Dyce's Woman at the Well.
Thanks for the pointer to 'Mozart and Modularity', hope to get into it tomorrow.
Do you ever put your photos on the Visual Arts sub forum or on-line somewhere?
Go well
><>
 
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Hi Barbarian - I'm surprised at your personality type. Your avatar doesn't look very introverted :).

I used to teach science. When I worked for an insurance company, I gave talks and training seminars on ergonomics. I'm really good in front of crowds, but I have to have my solitude to recharge. Extroverts get recharged by interacting with people. I get that by being alone and building things or writing.

Yea, really good photo. The song lyrics as a caption go so well with the eyes, the inside/outside contrast and the cage effect of the window. If you had not told me it was a photo I would have taken it to be a painting.

It's a process called tonemapping. It brings the exposure ranges of the scene together so that all the areas are properly exposed. I try to do that in a way that the process is not obvious, but the contrast was so great in the original image that it looks a little painterly.

Do you like the pre-raphaelites?

I don't know much about them. (Barbarian checks...)

Oh, that. I've always liked that style; it does look somewhat like HDR photography.

One I keep on my desktop is W.Dyce's Woman at the Well.

This one?
dyce-christ-woman-samaria.jpg

I like the lines. There's the broken horizontal line of the wall, the strong diagonal of the tree leading the eye to Jesus, and then the slightly crooked path that will bring the woman to Jesus. Nicely done.

Thanks for the pointer to 'Mozart and Modularity', hope to get into it tomorrow.

My pleasure. I love to read Gould. Except for his opus The Structure of Evolutionary Theory. Informative, but better than sleeping pills.

Do you ever put your photos on the Visual Arts sub forum or on-line somewhere?

I can be found on Flickr.
"https://tinyurl.com/y99rm9ed"

Not much going on for photography on the Visual Arts sub forum, unless I'm looking in the wrong place.
 
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