What is going on with the old calendar church?

[xristos.anesti]

That is why worldly is marked under " ", so that people can see that that word is used as a argumentative suplement. Due to difference between ecclesial calendar and public calendar (in Serbia) the Serbian Nativity falls on 7 January of this Public Calendar (Gregorian). While in Ecclesial reality this is 25 December.

Church of Greece, however, has changed her calendar (revised it) and their Nativity is 25 December and it falls on 25 December.

So, the supposition of the Canon (which is the guide not a law) is still fullfilled as the Nativity in both cases is on the 25 December.

The ONLY supposition that was questioned was Pascha and this is solved by Revised part of the Calendar, that is, by use of Orthodox Paschalia.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

There are, however, many who believe that the Old Calendar should be reinstated over the whole Orthodox world (myself included)

Count me in on that as well.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

I am Russian Orthodox, and we use the old Julian calendar for all fasts and feasts.

I'm Russian Orthodox too. But, unfortunately (and I say that with reservations because surely there are bishops far wiser than I... but we also know that bishops often crumble to whiney laypeople. The Church council is such a disaster!) MP Parishes in the States were given the choice between Old and New and we are New. Apparently there is about nil chance of us ever going back. Oh well. I still love my parish however disorganized the calendar may be.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

I belive that institution of the New (Reformed) Calendar was wrong.

I belive that Old Calendar should be re-instituted in the whole of the Orthodox Church.

I belive that going into schism for the sake of calendar is wrong.

I agree.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Now don't get me started on the Finnish Ort. Church... while I love them, they need to stop thinking that they are better than anyone else celebrating Pasha with the West. I'll try to find time to translate one of the editorials by the bishops here soon.... It was surprisingly arrogant.

Wait, don't the Finnish have a spcial dispensation that allows them to celebrate pascha on the same date as the Lutheran majority? Are you saying that some of the hierarchy are arrogant about that or are you referring to the heirarchy in Finland who remain with the Old Calendar being arrogant? Either way, it's stupid to be arogant about one's calendar. I don't think the NC makes any sense and although I am personally convinced that
1) it didn't offer ANYTHING towards reconciliation with the West (as if mere dates are really a point of serious contention with the Catholic Church) and
2) it wasn't really about that but about something else... wierd that I can't really figure out but that must be political
... I could never be arrogant if I were OC (just happy!) or NC (just happily confused! lol). Thankfully I think most Orthodox, whether NC or OC at heart or totally indifferent to the Calendar all together, agree that this is NOT a divisive matter. There are important things to consider in the ortodoxy of one's creed and doctrine... this is not one of them.

But, I am preaching to the choir... thankfully.

John

 

[Khaleas]

Wait, don't the Finnish have a spcial dispensation that allows them to celebrate pascha on the same date as the Lutheran majority? Are you saying that some of the hierarchy are arrogant about that or are you referring to the heirarchy in Finland who remain with the Old Calendar being arrogant? Either way, it's stupid to be arogant about one's calendar. I don't think the NC makes any sense and although I am personally convinced that
1) it didn't offer ANYTHING towards reconciliation with the West (as if mere dates are really a point of serious contention with the Catholic Church) and
2) it wasn't really about that but about something else... wierd that I can't really figure out but that must be political
... I could never be arrogant if I were OC (just happy!) or NC (just happily confused! lol). Thankfully I think most Orthodox, whether NC or OC at heart or totally indifferent to the Calendar all together, agree that this is NOT a divisive matter. There are important things to consider in the ortodoxy of one's creed and doctrine... this is not one of them.

But, I am preaching to the choir... thankfully.

John

Well, they sorta had. They started out with a dispensation that was supposed to be renewed each year (or every five years) but after a while they stopped applying for the dispensation and just kept the date.
No one other than the MP parish remains on Old Calender in Finland, but you'll see what I mean as soon as I get this thing translated. He basically said that the churched who still celebrate Pasha not by western time are behind and this that and the other thing... (WELL, HELLOOOO, you happen to be the only one).

 

[Xpycoctomos]

I look forward to reading that. Very interesting.

 

[Rilian]

Sounds like a certain bishop has been spending a little too much time in the sauna.

 

[Silent Bob]

Thanks for all the info. My original intention was to find out what it is meant by the excommunication of the Old Calendarist church.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Frankly, I think there is too much attention put on the calendar. I mean with the exception of Pascha, all of the dates are moveable. In regards to the Nativity, we have no proof that Christ was born in December, January, or August for that matter. So in reality, all dates (Pascha, again, being the exception) are moveable.

I was raised in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church which is Old Calendar. I now attend an OCA parish. The date on the calendar has no bearing on my faith. (That is, my faith in God is not changed for better or worse based on a man made calendar.)

What IS important is that we remember and celebrate the feasts and fasts of the church, regardless of which day they fall on.

That’s my $.02 on the matter…

In XC,

Maureen

 

[rafaeldaher]

I agree.

Me too. This is the best explanation.

I prefer the Old Calendar, but i dont wanna go to a Synod on Resistance or some like that.

 

[Shubunkin]

Peace....

 

[xristos.anesti]

Charitina!!!




You are presenting the worse of the worse of the worse of the dreaded ecumeniacs!!

You have a Cradle Orthododox , worshipping with an Evangelical , worshipping with a Latin , woshipping with a Baptist ....


IS OUTRAGE!!!

 

[Shubunkin]

Charitina!!!




You are presenting the worse of the worse of the worse of the dreaded ecumeniacs!!

You have a Cradle Orthododox , worshipping with an Evangelical , worshipping with a Latin , woshipping with a Baptist ....


IS OUTRAGE!!!

You are correct! What was I thinking???

 

[Shubunkin]

Charitina!!!




You are presenting the worse of the worse of the worse of the dreaded ecumeniacs!!

You have a Cradle Orthododox , worshipping with an Evangelical , worshipping with a Latin , woshipping with a Baptist ....


IS OUTRAGE!!!

Wait!! They are here to convert!!

 

[MariaRegina]

I've been thinking along the same lines...

R E P E N T

OR

E L S E

 

[rafaeldaher]

Charitina!!!




You are presenting the worse of the worse of the worse of the dreaded ecumeniacs!!

You have a Cradle Orthododox , worshipping with an Evangelical , worshipping with a Latin , woshipping with a Baptist ....


IS OUTRAGE!!!

 

[Xpycoctomos]

I was raised in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church which is Old Calendar. I now attend an OCA parish. The date on the calendar has no bearing on my faith. (That is, my faith in God is not changed for better or worse based on a man made calendar.)

I think most everyone agrees with this. I don't think anyone here would change their faith in God based on any calendar change.

Frankly, I think there is too much attention put on the calendar. I mean with the exception of Pascha, all of the dates are moveable. In regards to the Nativity, we have no proof that Christ was born in December, January, or August for that matter. So in reality, all dates (Pascha, again, being the exception) are moveable.

What IS important is that we remember and celebrate the feasts and fasts of the church, regardless of which day they fall on.

I don't think anyone (who takes themselves seriously) makes any case that The Lord was probably born in December. This has very little (probably nothing) to do with why it is in december. If we look at the liturgical year as a historically accurate to-the-date anniversary of the varying things that took place we could concievably be remember all of the feasts in a span of two to three months. Rather, the Liturgical calendar takes us through a spiritual journey... a journey that (in ideal situations) we would all be sharing together... fasting together and feasting together. Sure, this does not obliterate the Church. Surely in the early early Church there was not a unified calendar... even the times and lengths of Lent (evem who participated!) varied from region to region. This is also true of the Liturgy. But there is strength in unity and I do not think it was by accident or grave misfortune that the Church began to unify Herself in practices (liturgy, fast days, feast days and so on). You said that the liturgical calendar was "manmade" and I agree with you. This can be historically proven. But then you will also agree with me that the Divine Liturgy is manmade. This does not mean that it was not uniquely inspired by the Holy Spirit.. indeed it was. I would suggest that the Liturgical calendar was also inspired by the Holy Spirit and it's development of the centuries was also inspired. While I don't see the New Calendar as having lost its' blessedness (since all of the feast days are still included and in the same order), we have lost some liturgical unity. I'm sure you will quickly retort that doctrinal unity is far more important than calendar unity... andi will quickly agree with you. This is why I see no reason for me to change parishes simply due to the Calendar. I love my parish and it is where I grow. I (and others here) are merely saying that this New Calendar and seemed to offer nothing positive to the Orthodox Church and has only increased others' fears (warranted or not) that the OC is giving into modernism and willing to concede anything to reunite with Rome (because that was the original context in which these changes were made... although I don't understand how this offered anything to our possible reconciliation).

No one is saying that the Liturgical Calendar is the end-all... but we are saying that is it indeed something very Holy, time-tested and should not be messed with except for good and holy reasons... some of us are just having a hard time seeing what was good or Holy (or effective) in these reasons.

Others will disagree and think that the New Calendar is fantastic. And that's fine. Old Calendar (those in union) or New, they are my brothers and sisters in Christ, period. That doesn't make the Calendar issue unimportant, but rather non-divisive, IMHO

God bless,

John

 

[anastasios]

I am a member of an Old Calendarist Church (http://www.thegreekorthodoxchurch.com) and wrote my M.Div. thesis at St. Vladimir's Seminary on an Old Calendarist bishop, Metropolitan Petros of Astoria.

I also have read basically everything available on Old Calendarists from both Old Calendarist and New Calendarist points of view that is available in the English language. I am learning Greek and then I can start reading the stuff in that language.

I may be able to answer any specific questions anyone may have, but last year I posted on the subject and caused offense (although none was intended) to some posters and I simply do not want to do that again. So I will not argue the issue with anyone, but will be happy to provide either fact-based answers (i.e. our Church believes x because of a, b, or c) or citations/references/book suggestions.

If you are interested, please either post in this thread, private message me, or email me at anastasios0513@yahoo.com

Please note that I am currently focusing on finding employment and most of my internet time is spent on my own website that I moderate, so may take awhile to respond.

If the moderators of this forum feel I am soliciting (which is not my intent) please feel free to delete this post and no offense will be taken. Again, I will not engage in any kind of polemics but will be happy to answer fact-based questions.

Yours in Christ,

Anastasios

 

[Emmanuel-A]

I may be able to answer any specific questions anyone may have, but last year I posted on the subject and caused offense (although none was intended) to some posters and I simply do not want to do that again. So I will not argue the issue with anyone, but will be happy to provide either fact-based answers (i.e. our Church believes x because of a, b, or c) or citations/references/book suggestions.

Anastasios,

A good friend of mine is under the Makarios of Athens synod (one of the dozens of GOC Synods that are based in Greece).
I'm a bit lost and looking for a partial story (at least as partial as possible) about the different "Auxentian" synods and the reasons why they split.
Like, why isn't your synod (the one of Chrysostom Kiousis if I understand well) in communion with the one of Makarios (Kavakidis) ?