Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
* Attend a church service
* Talk to people at that church about the experience you've just shared with them (again, I'm recommending the LCMS since I am LCMS)
* Read the Bible
* Pray
* Repeat - It's going to take time.
Or....
* attend a mosque service
* talk to muslims about the experience you've just shared with them
* read the quran
* pray
* repeat - it's going to take time.
Your method fails miserably.
Identifying yourself as a christian tells me a great deal about the things you invoke faith for.
Just like if I would identify myself as a muslim - you'ld also have a pretty good idea about the shenannigans I would believe in that case.
Why do you pretend this isn't the case?
But again, what will convince me that a god actually exists will be an objective demonstration of that god's existence. Not anecdotes or unverifiable experiences and interpretations thereof.
I'm trying to make you realise that you have no solid foundation for the things that you believe.
This is why I draw parallels with other religions.
This is why I bring to your attention that other people of different religions have the exact same type of experiences as you do. They give the exact same arguments as you do. They make the exact same claims as you do.
Yet, somehow, when people reason about why we don't go floating into space after jumping, it doesn't matter what region of the world they come from, what their cultural background is,... All of them conclude that gravity is the best explanation.
How do you explain that?
It's not special pleading. I'm not part of the religion game.
What does it say about the validity of a religion if the vast majority of its followers are only followers due to cultural tradition?
What does it say about your faith in christianity?
Would you still have this faith if you would have born and living and Pakistan?
Would you still attribute your experiences to Jesus, or would you rather be attributing them to Allah?
And a muslim would give me schedules of mosque services. So what?
I've been to churches (and mosques). I didn't see anything there that was of any value.
There's no unit to measure that.
However, I can deduce how much a person cares for me by their actions and how they treat me.
I objected to your accusation that I don't trust "any christian".
God can "speak" to people in a variety of ways. Yes, He can speak audibly - which would be the literal method you're asking about. "Speak" can also be a more figurative term, meaning via his Word or Sacraments, through signs, or even through other people (prophets).
In one way, He's not different. Just as you suggested sending someone to the store to smell cinnamon, I'm suggesting you go to church.
In another way, He is different. As I said, God is not my trick pony. I can't give you a formula for a person.
All you did was copy and substitute. You didn't articulate in what way you think it fails.
Because you have made statements about my faith that are incorrect.
Then why are you here discussing it? Why aren't you out seeking the evidence you want?
Is this the reason you're here?
So, the Internet won't work to convince you God exists, but it will work to convince me an experience I had for which you were not present and have no details wasn't real?
This is an example of a flawed statement about my faith.
I am well aware of the devotion other people have to their beliefs. I am convinced there are devoted Muslims just as much as I am convinced you are a devoted atheist. But the experiences, the arguments, and the claims are not the same.
OK. This could be fun, so I'll play along. Is "gravity" more than a reiteration of an observation? In other words, is it more than an ex post facto statement.
I'm afraid it is, whether you want to admit it or not. Are you saying you are special, and that the statistically significant views of your geographic area have no affect on you?
1) If people follow a religion because of cultural tradition, then they are following a religion because of cultural tradition. Depending on what that religion specifically says, it would often mean they don't really believe that religion.
2) Would I be Christian had I been born in Pakistan? I don't know
. Would I be a frog if I had been born in Pakistan? Those two questions have about the same value.
Are you going to claim there are no Christians in Pakistan? It is possible for people in Pakistan to be Christian. If you are implying that the statistical average of a population applies to the whole population or that it can predict the outcome for a specific individual, then you need to better understand statistics.
Is there a larger pressure in Pakistan to become Muslim than Christian? Sure. Is that pressure coercive? Much evidence suggests it is. Does my church support such coercion?
No. So if this is not a case where you misunderstand my church (my faith), then this example simply doesn't apply.
How many times? Did you just watch or did you participate? Did you talk to the people there? I would suggest you need to try again. My youngest son has a tendency to do this. He plays baseball once or a musical instrument once, and then says, "See, I can't do that."
Yes. So don't ask me for a measure or a logical construct.
Context, friend. If there is a Christian who speaks about God and you believe what he says is true, then that's great.
If you have a methodology that people from rivaling religions use to come to rivaling conclusions, the methodology fails.
I can't help it if every single one of you fail provide what I'm asking for.
I didn't make a statement about your faith in that quote. I made a statement about the parallels of your faith with the faith of people of rivaling religions.
Which is something you have not addressed once, while I asked you about it many times now. Your dodging speaks volumes.
Yes. Gravity is a force emitted by matter with mass.
This is not something you can observe. The only thing you can observe is the effect it has.
Yes. Because I'm not religious.
If I would be religious, statistically chances are quite enormous that I would be a catholic. But I'm not religious.
You're skipping a few steps. Most people grow up being indoctrinated in a religion.
Common sense and statistics say: probably not. Most likely, you would have been a muslim.
If 90% of a country is muslim and you point at a random person of said country, then 9 times out of 10, that person will be a muslim.
Your church would be unkown to you had you grown up in Pakistan. You wouldn't be a part of that church because you wouldn't be anywhere near it.
What you are asking of me starts to sound very much like I have to brainwash myself into believing it in order to believe it.
I trust my wife blindfolded. When she is wrong about something (and thus I don't believe what she believes to be true), then that doesn't mean that I don't trust her. It only means that I disagree.
If God were to speak audibly, where does the sound originate from?
Sound requires oscillating pressure waves that travel through a medium such as air. So, if the sound were audible, the pressure wave must originate somewhere and then travel through the air.
Fair enough. But isn't he posited to be everywhere? The smell of cinnamon is not posited to be everywhere at all times.
With every other person I have ever known, there is an easy formula to meet them. Why is God different? Why is he so coy or shy or difficult to meet and get to know?
Why does he make himself so annoyingly difficult to meet?
...perhaps its because he does not exist? Its really hard to meet someone who doesn't exist...
I know the science. One of my engineering assignments was diesel engine acoustics. But I don't know how to answer this. It's not like the answer is the same every time. When God spoke to Moses, I assume the voice originated from the burning bush. When he spoke to Matthew, I assume it originated from Jesus' body. But those are just assumptions. I don't believe the Bible did an acoustic analysis of each situation. What are you after here?
It doesn't make sense to me to say it that way. You would have to give me a Bible verse that says God is omnipresent, because I've not seen it. If God is at position x, that would mean I am not. So, if God is everywhere, then I'm nowhere. And the "other dimensions" explanation does not solve that riddle. If I am 3D and at location (x,y,z), it doesn't help to say God is at position (w,x,y,z). If you're going to say that about God, then I must also have a w coordinate and we're back to the same problem.
I restrict myself to what the Bible says. The Bible says God hears all prayers (1 John 5:14). Those types of verses are as close as I come to something like omnipresence.
Do you want an answer, or was that all a rhetorical set-up for the last line?
Do you believe God exists today? Or do you only believe the things written about him in the Bible?
Because people claim to hear God audibly today. Not from burning bushes. Not from a physical incarnation such as Jesus. So from where? The air itself?
I have asked "What is God". Perhaps the next question to pose to you is "Where is God?"
If he hears all prayers, do you mean that you have to say the prayer audibly or he even hears our internal thoughts?
I would like an answer. I am also hypothesizing all possible reasons why he is so difficult to get a hold of. An obvious, and rarely mentioned reason why he may be so difficult to find is because he may not exist. It is hard to find something that doesn't exist, right?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?