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What do you mean by this?
How can you be a Christian and say that?
Isnt a God/being/person at the center of the faith?
Now, since God is being itself by His own essence, created being must be his proper effect....Therefore, as long as a thing has being, so long must God be present to it, according to its mode of being. (S.T. Ia, 8, 1)
All God-talk is symbolic with the sole exception of the statement that 'God is being-itself'. This is laid out fully by Paul Tillich in the first volume of his Systematic Theology. You may find his The Courage to Be of interest, particularly pp. 187 f. of the pdf.
Maybe I'm slow, but I still have no idea what you are saying.
That doesnt sound like the God of the Bible, who is a sort of ultra-person, with its own mind, a voice, a specific will, etc.So did Thomas! In his Summa:
esse ipsum was a classical Christian way of conceptualising God.
That doesnt sound like the God of the Bible, who is a sort of ultra-person, with its own mind, a voice, a specific will, etc.
Barack Obama is a black Homo Sapiens. He currently resides in the white house where has taken up the role of leading a country named The United States of America. A role that American citizens call "president".
And he looks like this: http://www.barackobama.net/pictures/barack-obama-2.jpg
But "being" doesnt talk to you. Persons talk.Which is where the symbolic concept comes in; thus God is personal but not a person and is grounded on Exod. 3:16, where God says to Moses, I am who I am." This, in Hebrew, is 'to be', that is, God is being. Thus we use this to construct an ontology
So if I gave you a link to a picture of God on the Internet, you would suddenly believe? I doubt it.
It just so happens I live in Illinois. Obama supposedly lived in Illinois from 1991 - 2008. Yet I never saw him - not once. There are photos of his house in Chicago, but I'm not allowed to visit his house to confirm he actually lives there, and there is all kind of news swirling around who actually bought the property and how they did it.
The Rezko Connection: Obama's Achilles Heel? - ABC News
And, you know, that stuff can be faked. After all, here is a photo of Harry Potter at Hogwart's:
Image - 2005 harry potter and the goblet of fire 023.jpg - Harry Potter Wiki
Is that real? No. So of what value is photographic evidence?
After all, there are fictional television shows about U.S. Presidents:
The West Wing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Then, of course, no one seems to be able to locate his birth certificate. Again, there are photos of it online, but there is evidence it was faked and no one is allowed to view the actual document:
10 Facts That Suggest Obama’s Birth Certificate Is Fake // Mr. Conservative
Finally, there is the whole mystery surrounding the time he was supposedly a U.S. Senator. I met Senator Fitzgerald (Obama's predecessor) in person, who was very popular because he was clean. It was a refreshing change from his predecessor (Mosely-Braun) whose entire term of office was a swirl of controversy. But Fitzgerald was a Caucasian Republican, and Illinois is a Democratically controlled state. They needed to clean up the mess Mosely-Braun had created (given her hype as the first African American female senator). So, the machine went to work. Suddenly, this popular senator announces he won't run for re-election, and this unknown guy who no one has ever seen called Obama steps in to take the seat. Sounds fishy to me. And it's not as if Illinois isn't known for it's corruption. We have two former governors and one former Congressman doing time in jail. With that record, I wouldn't trust that any politician coming from Illinois actually exists.
So, I take Obama more as an allegory. It's symbolic of the journey African Americans have had from slavery to full participation in American society. There's even this book called Dreams From My Father. Have you read it? I did a textual analysis on it, and believe it was actually written by Michelle Obama and Bill Ayers (because it's a proven fact those are real people).
Bill Ayers 2008 presidential election controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
*Note: I'm using "proves" in the sense I typically encounter on this forum.
I don't think you are. I think you are taking it to the point of logical absurdity.
A wikipedia article is sufficient proof for Michelle Obama and Bill Ayers but not for Obama???
You are comparing a physical human being who has a discrete location in space and time with a non-physical non-human being who has a nebulous location who is posited to transcend space and time.
Can you show me a picture of God? Rather than thinking what I would think, can you provide a picture of God for me?
Because I can find several million photos of Obama.
No speeches from God though.
As such, the analogy for Obama relating to evidence for God falls apart instantly. God is not posited to be a physical entity made of atoms and molecules. He is not posited to be confined to a certain discrete location in space and time.
On an internet forum, I can't "prove" very much. I can't even prove that you exist. And I can't prove to you that I exist for I might just be a sophisticated computer. I could be a friend of yours in your own town, or I could be someone living in Timbuktu in a shack.
Just because someone doesn't have a birth certificate does not mean they don't exist.
Just because someone is relatively unknown does not mean they don't exist. There are billions of people on Earth who are "relatively unknown". Do they all not exist simply because you personally have not seen them? If you close your eyes, does the world disappear?
Actually, likely tens of thousands of people had seen him at this point. His family, friends and acquaintances could all testify to his existence even when he was a relatively unknown person.
Caner, do you content that God is physical in the same way Obama is?
With regards to Obama, you can look up his schedule here. Today, he will be in New York and you could go to the Sheraton New York Hotel at 4:10 PM Eastern Time and see him speak at an Open Press event. Its possible. The same cannot be said of God.
For atheists: What is God?
What is it exactly that you don't believe in?
Does God need to have a measurable impact on the universe in order for you to believe God exists?
For atheists: What is God? What is it exactly that you don't believe in? Does God need to have a measurable impact on the universe in order for you to believe God exists?
So if I gave you a link to a picture of God on the Internet, you would suddenly believe? I doubt it.
Have you studied philosophy at all? Is English your first language?
So if I gave you a link to a picture of God on the Internet, you would suddenly believe? I doubt it. As a disclaimer, I'm not a birther, but I did pick Obama as an example for a reason. It begins with the simplest fact that there are about 25 million African Americans in the U.S. Nothing you've said proves* there is an individual African American named Barack Obama. How are you going to prove to me, right here in an Internet forum, that he exists? Especially given the following:
It just so happens I live in Illinois. Obama supposedly lived in Illinois from 1991 - 2008. Yet I never saw him - not once. There are photos of his house in Chicago, but I'm not allowed to visit his house to confirm he actually lives there, and there is all kind of news swirling around who actually bought the property and how they did it.
The Rezko Connection: Obama's Achilles Heel? - ABC News
And, you know, that stuff can be faked. After all, here is a photo of Harry Potter at Hogwart's:
Image - 2005 harry potter and the goblet of fire 023.jpg - Harry Potter Wiki
Is that real? No. So of what value is photographic evidence? After all, there are fictional television shows about U.S. Presidents:
The West Wing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Then, of course, no one seems to be able to locate his birth certificate. Again, there are photos of it online, but there is evidence it was faked and no one is allowed to view the actual document:
10 Facts That Suggest Obamas Birth Certificate Is Fake // Mr. Conservative
Finally, there is the whole mystery surrounding the time he was supposedly a U.S. Senator. I met Senator Fitzgerald (Obama's predecessor) in person, who was very popular because he was clean. It was a refreshing change from his predecessor (Mosely-Braun) whose entire term of office was a swirl of controversy. But Fitzgerald was a Caucasian Republican, and Illinois is a Democratically controlled state. They needed to clean up the mess Mosely-Braun had created (given her hype as the first African American female senator). So, the machine went to work. Suddenly, this popular senator announces he won't run for re-election, and this unknown guy who no one has ever seen called Obama steps in to take the seat. Sounds fishy to me. And it's not as if Illinois isn't known for it's corruption. We have two former governors and one former Congressman doing time in jail. With that record, I wouldn't trust that any politician coming from Illinois actually exists.
So, I take Obama more as an allegory. It's symbolic of the journey African Americans have had from slavery to full participation in American society. There's even this book called Dreams From My Father. Have you read it? I did a textual analysis on it, and believe it was actually written by Michelle Obama and Bill Ayers (because it's a proven fact those are real people).
Bill Ayers 2008 presidential election controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Regardless, if you read the book the use of various literary mechanisms is obvious. Obama's "birth" just happens to take place at the beginning of the 1960s (the birth of the Civil Rights movement), and of course his "father" is a native African who "marries" a Caucasion woman - all symbolic of the integration that was occurring around that time. I could go on and on ...
*Note: I'm using "proves" in the sense I typically encounter on this forum.
The question wasn't about proving Obama exists. It was about defining what Obama is in such a way that you can understand it as well as verify it. In other words, in such a way that you would not be required to take my word for it.
Their might be millions of african americans in the state, but I'm guessing not many of them look like the person in the linked picture, have the profession of "president" and live in the white house.
Yes, as I said, it's about learning to recognize a person.
But in this case I can never do it for myself - and you can't either
Does the U.S. actually have a President?
This makes no sense.
What stops you from buying a plane ticket to Washington?
What stops you to check his schedule and catch one of his speeches live and in person?
Because you don't yet get that you're giving exactly the same answer to these questions that I give when someone asks about meeting God. What stops you from going to church? What stops you from praying?
This is 110% false.
And you know it.
Obama is an actual person with physical manifestation that can be independently verified.
No matter how many times I go to church, no matter how many times I pray... the existence of god will always remain a matter of "faith".
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