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What is God required to do?

RND

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You seem to be having trouble with the basic stuff. Man was never threatened with a loss of dominiion and man has never lost dominion.

Yes, you're right senti. I mean isn't it wonderful how man is able to stop all those natural disasters he is plagued with? Isn't wonderful how man is never bothered by the sin of another; no mass killings, planes flying into buildings, etc.?

Senti, if man was in control and had full dominion over the earth how do you explain all the things that man can not control? Basic stuff.
 
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sentipente

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Yes, you're right senti. I mean isn't it wonderful how man is able to stop all those natural disasters he is plagued with? Isn't wonderful how man is never bothered by the sin of another; no mass killings, planes flying into buildings, etc.?

Senti, if man was in control and had full dominion over the earth how do you explain all the things that man can not control? Basic stuff.
It might help you if you tried to understand what dominion means.
 
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RND

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It might help you if you tried to understand what dominion means.

Likewise.

7 dictionary results for: dominion
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This do·min·ion
thinsp.png
/dəˈmɪn
thinsp.png
yən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[duh-min-yuh
thinsp.png
n] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1.the power or right of governing and controlling; sovereign authority. 2.rule; control; domination. 3.a territory, usually of considerable size, in which a single rulership holds sway. 4.lands or domains subject to sovereignty or control. 5.Government. a territory constituting a self-governing commonwealth and being one of a number of such territories united in a community of nations, or empire: formerly applied to self-governing divisions of the British Empire, as Canada and New Zealand. 6.dominions, Theology. domination (def. 3).

Tell me Senti, in relation to the first definition of "dominion" how does man have the
power or right of governing and controlling this world? In what ways does man show that he has complete sovereign authority over the entire earth?

Sin and Satan presently have "dominion" over the earth.
 
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AzA

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RND, why have you assumed that the first meaning in the list -- you shortened it to "sovereign authority" in your question -- is the one that applies in this context?

Only after you have shown that it ever applied could we talk about how it could be taken away.

A sovereign cannot be deposed because there is no higher authority than the sovereign to depose it.
There is only one sovereign in the universe, and we are not it.

With regard to humankind, we could talk about a much more bounded position in relation to the Creator and the created -- but we'd first have to agree to do so, and do so without assuming sovereignty.
 
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RND

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RND, why have you assumed that the first meaning in the list -- you shortened it to "sovereign authority" in your question -- is the one that applies in this context?

Only after you have shown that it ever applied could we talk about how it could be taken away.

A sovereign cannot be deposed because there is no higher authority than the sovereign to depose it.
There is only one sovereign in the universe, and we are not it.

With regard to humankind, we could talk about a much more bounded position in relation to the Creator and the created -- but we'd first have to agree to do so, and do so without assuming sovereignty.

It is clear from scripture that after creation the world was given to Adam and was Adam's to control.

Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

After Adam's disobedience he was removed from the garden and given different marching orders and thus wa no longer in control. Clearly Adam lost his dominion over all that was given to him.
 
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sentipente

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It is clear from scripture that after creation the world was given to Adam and was Adam's to control.
Are you suggesting that Adam decided when animals mated and when volcanoes erupted? Dominion does not mean control. Dominion meant that man had the authority to make of his life what he would make it, unlike the animals whose behavior is genetically determined.
 
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RND

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Are you suggesting that Adam decided when animals mated and when volcanoes erupted?

Animals? No. Volcanoes? Who said there were erupting volcanoes in Adams day? Do you have anything that could be considered proof?

Dominion does not mean control.

Yes it does. See definition #2.

Dominion meant that man had the authority to make of his life what he would make it, unlike the animals whose behavior is genetically determined.

Did Adam have this form of dominion available to him after he sinned? Was it Adam's choice to leave the garden or was he evicted? C'mon man, think!
 
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AzA

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RND -- bless you.

Human authority has always has limits, and yet you're rendering "dominion" as if it lacked bounds.
Adam was placed in the garden "to dress and keep it" -- to nurture and maintain it. He was not placed in the garden to control times, seasons, or the nature of the other living kingdoms. His work in the garden was constrained by an order literally set above his head.
I'm surprised we also have to note that "the garden of Eden" was not "the world," and so to conclude from "Adam worked in the garden" that "Adam ruled the planet" is to go well beyond what In The Beginning says or what its native culture context implied.

It's anachronistic to insist on applying a contemporary definition -- a Western post-Hobbes definition no less -- to an Eastern, ancient, pre-monarchical context. The activities given to Adam in Genesis 1-4 define the terms used, and they also balance each other out. Adam, male and female, was never king of the castle. Adam was a steward. The applicable concept where humankind is concerned is not ownership or unbounded authority or free reign over a domain. It's service and cooperation with the realm of Elohim.
 
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RND

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RND -- bless you.

You to. :)

Human authority has always has limits, and yet you're rendering "dominion" as if it lacked bounds.

Nope. Just in context with what is described in both the Old and New.

Adam was placed in the garden "to dress and keep it" -- to nurture and maintain it. He was not placed in the garden to control times, seasons, or the nature of the other living kingdoms. His work in the garden was constrained by an order literally set above his head.

Right. Was Adam's "dominion" over the garden taken away AzA? Be honest.

I'm surprised we also have to note that "the garden of Eden" was not "the world," and so to conclude from "Adam worked in the garden" that "Adam ruled the planet" is to go well beyond what In The Beginning says or what its native culture context implied.

That's a fairly declarative statement that has -zero- scripture to support it. Adam and Eve in the garden WAS the world.

It's anachronistic to insist on applying a contemporary definition -- a Western post-Hobbes definition no less -- to an Eastern, ancient, pre-monarchical context.

How so? Did they not have a word for dominion back then?

The activities given to Adam in Genesis 1-4 define the terms used, and they also balance each other out. Adam, male and female, was never king of the castle. Adam was a steward. The applicable concept where humankind is concerned is not ownership or unbounded authority or free reign over a domain. It's service and cooperation with the realm of Elohim.

No doubt, but that is not to say that the limited partnership dominion that Adam had with God was not taken away from him through his disobedience to God.
 
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AzA

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Nope. Just in context with what is described in both the Old and New.
No, RND that is not what is described in the OT or NT, but what has been interpreted from said descriptions through the perspective of the Euro-Western culture post-Christ and post-Empire, and laden with this culture's ideas about rulership, place, and control.

Was Adam's "dominion" over the garden taken away AzA?
The work that Adam and Eve did in the garden -- dressing and keeping -- was still their responsibility when they left it. The only reason that the change in the rest of creation means anything is that A&E still had a job to do in that context, in charge over the cattle, the fish, the birds, and the ground they came from. Both they and their children continued to do that work. We still continue to do that work.

Be honest.
Kindly reconsider that statement.

Adam and Eve in the garden WAS the world.
I fail to understand why you are construing "world" in this way. We're describing ordinary 3D space. The garden could not have been the world if A&E were able to leave it -- and they did leave for other territory. If the garden had been the world, a river could not have flowed out of it because there would have been nowhere for it to flow -- and yet a river flowed out. The writer says that the garden was planted *in* Eden, just as my home is *in* a state. My home is not the sum of the state, the garden was not the sum of Eden, and Eden was not the sum of the world. The placement and extent of the rivers establishes that. So does the reference to Nod, east of the area. Map it out if you care to; it has been done.

How so? Did they not have a word for dominion back then?
A word is never as important as the concept for which it is a sign. They have had words to signify "heaven," "marriage," and "responsibility" in every culture since mankind was created but we would be desperately wrong to assume that these concepts have remained static across cultures since then. To be fair to these writers we have to respect the fact that our worlds and lenses are different from theirs. That is how we put ourselves in a position to learn from them.

No doubt, but that is not to say that the limited partnership dominion that Adam had with God was not taken away from him through his disobedience to God.
"Limited partnership dominion"? That is not a native construction for the literature. There was only ownership on one hand and possession or stewardship on the other, with no halfway house between the two states. The jubilee system was one of several cultural signs that reminded humanity that it only possessed and served, and didn't own or regulate. Our dominion was bound by God from the very beginning. Our contemporary idea that we own, part-own, or have ever done so simply doesn't find parallel in the ancient Jewish context. But it grates on our customs and lenses so I can understand why it is so strongly resisted.
 
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sentipente

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Animals? No. Volcanoes? Who said there were erupting volcanoes in Adams day? Do you have anything that could be considered proof?
Are you suggesting it was a curse that God forgot to pronounce? I would remind you that there are storms on Jupiter.
 
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RND

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Are you suggesting it was a curse that God forgot to pronounce? I would remind you that there are storms on Jupiter.

Senti, why do you always take a statement that someone makes and try to make it seem as if they were saying something else?

You asked:

Are you suggesting that Adam decided when animals mated and when volcanoes erupted?

I said:

Animals? No. Volcanoes? Who said there were erupting volcanoes in Adams day? Do you have anything that could be considered proof?

Adam had nothing to do with the desire of animals to mate, though he may have been involved in animal husbandry at one time. Bible doesn't speak of such things but seeing that Abel raised animals one can only guess that he might have.

I can't say one way or another that there were definitely volcanoes erupting in Adam's day, but then again neither can you or anyone else. We weren't there. It'd just be a guess. That's not to say that God could not have caused volcanoes to erupt after sin, that's just saying that there is no definitive proof on the matter. Just another "how come" question we can ask God during eternity.
 
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Joe67

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In another thread it seems to be postulated that since there is death and destruction here on earth that somehow God isn't doing His job as He promised. Is the fact that people die an example of God not protecting those that die? Is that true?

If He is our master, where is His fear?

If He is our Father, where is His honor?

Both ways, shall the thing formed say to him that formed it,"Why have you made me thus?"

If God is neither master or father to us, then we are like the animals; knowing only the fear of man.

Joe
 
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sentipente

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If He is our master, where is His fear?

If He is our Father, where is His honor?

Both ways, shall the thing formed say to him that formed it,"Why have you made me thus?"

If God is neither master or father to us, then we are like the animals; knowing only the fear of man.

Joe
Fear does not make a master nor does honor a father.
 
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Joe67

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Fear does not make a master nor does honor a father.
The male human agent of my personal existence was an object of fear to me when I was a little child, then in later life the desire to honor him came to me.

The in-between years were a transition. Adolescent uncertainty reigned, though without open strife.

Family and nation are two different breeding grounds for the intents and purposes of the inward life.

Family is about love and hate.
Nation is about ambition and humility.
Church has a hand stretched out to each.

Joe
 
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sentipente

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The male human agent of my personal existence was an object of fear to me when I was a little child, then in later life the desire to honor him came to me.

The in-between years were a transition. Adolescent uncertainty reigned, though without open strife.

Family and nation are two different breeding grounds for the intents and purposes of the inward life.

Family is about love and hate.
Nation is about ambition and humility.
Church has a hand stretched out to each.

Joe
What does this have to do with the nature of our Creator?
 
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Joe67

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God made human life as an object lesson through experience.

When I was a child, my human father was perfect in my eyes.

Through our parents we learn that the Creator is a greater parent(s).

Fearing Creator is the first lesson in truth, though childish but given.

Honoring Redeemer is the mature lesson in truth; parental but necessary.

He is not far from us. We are in His womb.

New Jerusalem that is above is the mother of us all.

Joe
 
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